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  1. #151
    Send Sideshow to ASG Pioneer10's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    The thing is Jonas scored well on the advanced metrics as well. Seemed like a no-brainer on draft night to go with Kyrie and Jonas to me.
    There is a tension, peculiar to basketball, between the interests of the team and the interests of the individual. The game continually tempts the people who play it to do things that are not in the interest of the group.
    Michael Lewis


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  3. #152
    Situational Stopper Seiklis's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    I'm still convinced it was Lithuania that was the problem.

    It was reported for 2 months prior to the draft that the buyout was almost done yet it wasn't completed until 2 days after the draft. There was a hold up and it had to be either someone wanting Jonas somewhere or not wanting him somewhere. I know Leon Rose got alot of the flak right after the draft, that he had some vendetta against the Cavs for damaging Lebron's rep. But I don't think Rose had much to do with this.

    Think back to the 2007 season. Cavs had just lost to the Spurs in the finals and had finally made it to the big time. But the long season had worn down more than a few of the players, Z being one of them and with his feet that's always a worry. So when Z asked for permission to join the Lithuanian Olympic squad that summer, he was denied, the Cavs citing his feet and the fact the extra practice and games would be far too hard on Z's feet. So in '08, the Lithuanian Olympic team didn't have their best center because we wouldn't let him play. Now...why would it ever be in Lithuanian basketball's interest for the next possibly great center out of Lithuania to end up on the Cavs, the team that already prevented one center from playing.

    So with Lithuanian basketball having full control over Jonas's contract and the Cavs in a prime spot to get him, I believe Lithuania simply said no. They had no interest in agreeing to any buyout that got Jonas here and there was pretty much no one outside Lietuvos rytas and the rest of Lithuanian basketball who could do anything about it. They simply did not trust Gilbert and the Cavs after they held Z back. The Cavs could of called their bluff of course, but Jonas might end up stuck over there for 2 to 3 years instead of one if they did.

    I wish they would of called the bluff cause I had Jonas rated 2nd on my board when they took Tristan, but I can understand why they didn't. They just didn't want to take a chance on Rubio happening to them

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  5. #153
    keyboard monkey Joe Henderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seiklis View Post
    I'm still convinced it was Lithuania that was the problem.

    It was reported for 2 months prior to the draft that the buyout was almost done yet it wasn't completed until 2 days after the draft. There was a hold up and it had to be either someone wanting Jonas somewhere or not wanting him somewhere. I know Leon Rose got alot of the flak right after the draft, that he had some vendetta against the Cavs for damaging Lebron's rep. But I don't think Rose had much to do with this.

    Think back to the 2007 season. Cavs had just lost to the Spurs in the finals and had finally made it to the big time. But the long season had worn down more than a few of the players, Z being one of them and with his feet that's always a worry. So when Z asked for permission to join the Lithuanian Olympic squad that summer, he was denied, the Cavs citing his feet and the fact the extra practice and games would be far too hard on Z's feet. So in '08, the Lithuanian Olympic team didn't have their best center because we wouldn't let him play. Now...why would it ever be in Lithuanian basketball's interest for the next possibly great center out of Lithuania to end up on the Cavs, the team that already prevented one center from playing.

    So with Lithuanian having full control over Jonas's contract and the Cavs in a prime spot to get him, I believe Lithuania simply said no. They had no interest in agreeing to any buyout that got Jonas here and there was pretty much no one outside Lietuvos rytas and the rest of Lithuanian basketball who could do anything about it. They simply did not trust Gilbert and the Cavs after they held Z back. The Cavs could of called their bluff of course, but Jonas might end up stuck over there for 2 to 3 years instead of one if they did.

    I wish they would of called the bluff cause I had Jonas rated 2nd on my board when they took Tristan, but I can understand why they didn't. They just didn't want to take a chance on Rubio happening to them
    Lithuania had control of his contract? Like the government? Or the national basketball association? I think you are quite wrong. His team, Lietuvos Rytas had control of his contract. And ultimately, Jonas did... contracts expire, which makes players free to do whatever they want.

    But i think you are onto something here. I have a very hard time believing that a 1-year wait would have made the Cavs hesitate... That actually would have been seen as a positive as they angled for a better draft position in 2012. Not like they were trying to win anything last year... So yeah, the only obvious explanation, especially given the previous indications of them liking Jonas a lot, is that they were told in no uncertain terms that Jonas may never suit up for them -- for whatever reason. Maybe it was Z's national team situation, maybe it was something else, but they didn't want to get caught up in the impossible situation of being handed a trade request by a lottery pick who's never played a minute in the league... imagine the returns on that deal!

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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    I'm not sure where you guys get all these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Chris Grant to just PREFER Tristan Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas? Even if it ends up being a bad choice (which MOST GMs and player personnel people do), I think Grant made a choice that he thought was best for the Cavaliers. This is the same guy that drafted a player (Dion Waiters) without seeing him in a workout for a second, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched for him to just want Tristan more than Jonas...even if most may disagree.

    To think that anyone other than Jonas and/or Leon Rose would "conspire" to put Jonas anywhere is ridiculous. Even though I don't think anyone other than Rose MIGHT have played a role in any ploy to place JV, it's still ridiculous to think his TEAM, let alone his COUNTRY would have anything to do with it. The country of Lithuania has no say in where Jonas plays basketball, so that theory is just insane. That would be like the Cavaliers not letting Samardo Samuels play in Greece because we wanted him to play for Team USA instead (sounds crazy, huh?). And why would Lietuvos Rytas slow down their buyout with JV just so he doesn't play in Cleveland? There is a limit to the amount any team can give for a player buyout SPECIFICALLY for this reason. Rytas wasn't/didn't get any more from Toronto than they would've from Cleveland. As for the connection to Z, last I checked, Z felt good enough about his time in Cleveland to write the fans a letter when he left, come back to Cleveland for work after he retired and has lived there pretty much every day since he's been in the NBA. I'd say there isn't much bad blood between Z and the Cavaliers organization--especially not 4yr old animosity. Since Z knows his job is about building the best team possible, I don't think he'd sabotage the team. If anything, he'd talk to Jonas about how great the organization, and city, are. Everything I've read said that Jonas idolized both Z and Arvydas Sabonis, so to play in the same place that one of his idols (and countrymen) played, and, in theory, taking the torch from him, would seem to be a pretty special thing for him, wouldn't it?

    You guys certainly do have some imaginations, though. Some of you should look into creative writing.

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  8. #155
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by adam81king View Post
    I'm not sure where you guys get all these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Chris Grant to just PREFER Tristan Thompson over Jonas Valanciunas? Even if it ends up being a bad choice (which MOST GMs and player personnel people do), I think Grant made a choice that he thought was best for the Cavaliers. This is the same guy that drafted a player (Dion Waiters) without seeing him in a workout for a second, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched for him to just want Tristan more than Jonas...even if most may disagree.
    Chad Ford reported that Cleveland really liked Valanciunas, but his agent wanted him playing in Toronto. As a result, he was very shifty with the Cavs about when exactly Valanciunas would come over to play in the NBA. The Cavs were unwilling to wait several years for a player that they weren't sure wanted to play here (understandable given how the LeBron thing played out) and went to their next choice.

    I'm not sure if it's true, but Ford said exactly that, so take from it what you will.

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  10. #156
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Chad Ford reported that Cleveland really liked Valanciunas, but his agent wanted him playing in Toronto. As a result, he was very shifty with the Cavs about when exactly Valanciunas would come over to play in the NBA. The Cavs were unwilling to wait several years for a player that they weren't sure wanted to play here (understandable given how the LeBron thing played out) and went to their next choice.

    I'm not sure if it's true, but Ford said exactly that, so take from it what you will.
    I heard that, too. And, as I wrote in that original post (check the unedited post just a few minutes ago), Leon Rose would be the only one I MIGHT blame for any shadiness in that deal. Blaming Lithuania, or his Lithuanian team is just ridiculous, though.

  11. #157
    Veteran ChicagoCavFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by adam81king View Post
    Blaming Lithuania, or his Lithuanian team is just ridiculous, though.
    I disagree. Being Lithuanian, I tracked the Z / Lithuanian National Team drama closely. Maybe playing for his country is more important to Jonas than the NBA...after all, its just a job.

    Read this article:

    http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/2011...-matulevicius/

    Why Ilgauskas will never surpass Sabonis, by Matulevičius

    The news that Žydrūnas Ilgauskas (Big Z) has finished his career as a professional basketball player in the NBA again incited the dispute — who is the brightest star of Lithuanian basketball— Arvydas Sabonis or Big Z? This time, after counting their rebounds, scored points and income, basketball experts did not have any other choice but to admit what was already known: A. Sabonis is second.

    However, by doing so, somehow the rebounds, scored points and medals won while playing for the Lithuanian national basketball team were forgotten. This act was not only dishonest, but also cunningly did not consider the part which, when comparing these two world-class sportsmen, might also be the most important, Vytautas Matulevičius wrote in alfa.lt on 20 October.

    In considering their outlook to the national team and their duty to Lithuania, A. Sabonis and Ž. Ilgauskas are clear polar opposites.

    During the best years of his career, A. Sabonis never questioned whether he should play for Lithuania or not. If, however, he had to ask, then he managed to forget all the injuries and fatigue, and finally put on his famous number 11 jersey, each time stoically becoming the leader of the team. It is not hard to guess that each year the decision to change the holiday into another hell on the basketball court, which would not add any money or fame (because everything was already achieved), became harder and harder to make. But A. Sabonis was playing for the national team until a substitution for him was found and when, due to his age and injuries, he started to think about the end of his career in the NBA.

    On the other hand, Ž. Ilgauskas, although he had strong arguments (operation on his leg), always chose a different path — he did not risk his well-paid NBA player status and did not exhaust himself with an extra workload on the national team. Each time the World Championships and the Olympic Games were on the horizon, Lithuania waited breathlessly for his response. Nonetheless, the response, even when the leaders of the country were calling, was always the same: “no.” The injuries, the fatigue after the long NBA season, no one is willing to pay for the insurance, the NBA team will not let me go, etc. were the common excuses. Yet all of this did not prevent him from playing very successfully for more than a decade in the most well-known basketball league in the world.

    Every citizen has the right to refuse to volunteer. You can refuse even when you know that you are the only one who can do what is awaited by the entire nation. Still, just as Ž. Ilgauskas had the right to choose, every Lithuanian today has the right to tell him openly that he shunned Lithuania. This is an undeniable fact, and its real meaning will become apparent only as time passes, and money will be of no comfort.

    Albeit this good sportsman most probably did not understand that a man to whom God has given a gift is expected to give more back as well. Also, there is a different side of the coin, the one about which the legendary coach Vladas Garastas spoke many times: Ž. Ilgauskas was taught by Lithuania’s basketball school, and he developed his talents largely due to its help; thus, he is in debt to Lithuania. Now this debt is left unpaid.

    If you know Ž. Ilgauskas’s point of view, you must be surprised by the loyal attention of Lithuanian journalists, who are following his every footstep. Each time he declined an offer to play in the national team and came back for holiday, he still was greeted as though he had brought back a medal for his homeland. When there is such a lack of self-respect and people are afraid to tell the truth, the day is not far away when in the eyes of the youth, the difference between which path you are choosing will totally disappear.

    The aforementioned second place of A. Sabonis is an expression of such an outlook.

    Nevertheless, despite the recurring attempts to dethrone him, A. Sabonis is and will be unsurpassed. He will be the best not only for the results he has achieved but also for his attitude towards the motherland. One can only wonder how he used his endurance and unique irony to cope with the fame. No arrogance, inappropriate actions or scandals which are so typical of celebrity life.

    We have even seen him smiling in the hospital. Has anyone else seen someone joking like that after a heart attack? Think about all the people, sitting in front of their screens, whom he has inspired that evening not to give up due to the diseases, disasters, pessimism, and misfortune which are haunting each of us?

    We have been lucky that we have such a fellow countryman. The number 1 Lithuanian, 220 centimetres. Just by looking at him, Lithuania stops looking small.

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  13. #158
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Wow, that was brutal. Maybe it's a "first world viewpoint" thing ... but seems to me if you want Z to play so much for your team then you pony up the insurance premium and don't ask him to put his career on the line or Dan Gilbert to pickup the bill.

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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Wow, that was brutal. Maybe it's a "first world viewpoint" thing ... but seems to me if you want Z to play so much for your team then you pony up the insurance premium and don't ask him to put his career on the line or Dan Gilbert to pickup the bill.
    Yeah that article was pretty ridiculous, especially if it was the Cavs forbidding Ilgauskas from playing for his country, which is understandable given their considerable financial commitment to him.

    Basketball is a business, and I don't fault players at all if they opt to not play for their national teams in the interest of staying healthy for the teams that actually pay them. There's nothing wrong with loving your country and wanting to represent them, but likewise there's nothing wrong with taking the summer off to heal up.

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  17. #160
    Veteran Saor's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Chad Ford reported that Cleveland really liked Valanciunas, but his agent wanted him playing in Toronto. As a result, he was very shifty with the Cavs about when exactly Valanciunas would come over to play in the NBA. The Cavs were unwilling to wait several years for a player that they weren't sure wanted to play here (understandable given how the LeBron thing played out) and went to their next choice.

    I'm not sure if it's true, but Ford said exactly that, so take from it what you will.
    This. Its easy to look back and say we should have taken Valanciunas anyways but given the circumstances surrounding the recent departure of Lebron and having to rebuild a team, I think the Cavs were just more cautious than they typically would be.

    I bet Gilbert had something to do picking Thompson as well. I can imagine Gilbert asking Grant about what players they would take and Grant telling him that he couldn't get straightforward answers from Jonas and his representatives regarding a buyout or desire to play in Cleveland. That was probably enough for Gilbert to tell Grant not to take Valanciunas. It might have been a poor response, but after Lebron, the last thing the Cavs wanted was another player who didn't want to be in Cleveland.

    Another factor that likely played into the decision was the fact Irving and Thompson knew each other pretty well. I think the Cavs wanted to allow two players to grow together and form a bond that would make them both want to stay in Cleveland. The Cavs had recently watched Lebron join his "super friends" and I think the Cavs viewed Thompson as potentially filling this role.

    I think fan reaction had another thing to do with the Thompson selection. The Cavs needed to provide hope to a demoralized fan base. Taking a player that they may not see in two or three years(as rumored at the time) would not be a popular decision. Again this isn't the best basketball decision, but at the time it would have made business sense.

    Finally, I think the Cavs truly saw a lack of talent after Irving. I think W and G said that had the Cavs not gotten the first pick, they would have moved up to get Irving. The Cavs likely saw the Clippers pick as an increased opportunity to get Irving more than adding another piece. I don't think they really had a strong idea about what to do at 4. They knew Thompson was athletic, had upside, could defend and rebound, and had high character. That was likely enough to make him a Cavalier.

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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Jonas not coming over for a year or two would've been such a huge blow for the Cavs, especially since the guy they chose instead has contributed so much in the meantime.

    If an unwillingness to wait a few years is the reason they chose Thompson, they are dumb and absurdly naive. Period. They were steamrolled by an agent. An agent!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    Finally, I think the Cavs truly saw a lack of talent after Irving. I think W and G said that had the Cavs not gotten the first pick, they would have moved up to get Irving. The Cavs likely saw the Clippers pick as an increased opportunity to get Irving more than adding another piece. I don't think they really had a strong idea about what to do at 4. They knew Thompson was athletic, had upside, could defend and rebound, and had high character. That was likely enough to make him a Cavalier.
    and lol at this

    they didn't get davis either, perhaps they should've moved up for him too. cause grant can do whatever the fuck he wants.
    Last edited by Triumph36; 11-26-2012 at 04:00 PM.

  19. #162
    Veteran Cavatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post

    I bet Gilbert had something to do picking Thompson as well. I can imagine Gilbert asking Grant about what players they would take and Grant telling him that he couldn't get straightforward answers from Jonas and his representatives regarding a buyout or desire to play in Cleveland. That was probably enough for Gilbert to tell Grant not to take Valanciunas. It might have been a poor response, but after Lebron, the last thing the Cavs wanted was another player who didn't want to be in Cleveland.
    Wasn't there mention that Tristan was Dan Gilbert's choice? I think Dan really liked him.

    I'll say this about Tristan though, Lebron didn't just go around him. He still has the potential to be a serious defender. Even the biggest guys aren't just pushing him around anymore.

  20. #163
    BANNED Maximus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoCavFan View Post
    On the other hand, Ž. Ilgauskas, although he had strong arguments (operation on his leg), always chose a different path — he did not risk his well-paid NBA player status and did not exhaust himself with an extra workload on the national team.

    Operation on his leg? Try total reconstruction of both feet using 10 screws and plates. It wasn't a risk of losing money for Z...he would have been paid even if he got injured. After Z's last surgeries they came up with a regimen that involved pre-game treatments, MPG targets, post game treatments and off season work that minimizied the stress on the feet and hardware. The Cavs insisted he not play for Lithuania and the doctors didn't want him playing there either. It killed him not to play, but he honored their wishes...the Cavs had always stood by him.

    Sabonis knows what Z went through and why he never played. Sabonis would laugh at this article then use it as toiletpaper...

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  22. #164
    Veteran ChicagoCavFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread

    Agree, as I had some chuckles on the venomous take the author had. The article was just used to illustrate to adam81 that basketball "over there" is viewed differently. Was probably written by the coach of the team
    Last edited by ChicagoCavFan; 11-27-2012 at 10:40 AM.

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    Default Re: The Jonas V thread


    full highlights vs spurs

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