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  1. #421
    Hall of Famer Mdog1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    This is false for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed, including age and injury proneness.

    Top 5 pick. Ridiculous talk.
    It's not rediculous to think that Andy could net us a top 5 pick. Mike Miller was traded for the #5 or #6 pick a few years ago, so it's most centainly a possibility.

    Also if you look at the circumstances the Thunder have, which is "win now" despite what anyone thinks, it makes it a fairy realistic possibility. Absorb some salary (Perk), and get a pick back. Basically what we did with the Mo Williams for Davis trade, although I hope this pick doesn't become #1 overall this year lol.

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  3. #422
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    This is false for a variety of reasons that have already been discussed, including age and injury proneness.

    Top 5 pick. Ridiculous talk.
    Nah you're right, age has a lot to do with it. I mean Gerald Wallace was only traded for the Nets lottery pick, so I doubt someone who is a much better player could net the same

    Best center in the Eastern Conference.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerr...egularseason/C

    Currently rated the best center in the NBA. But you're going to tell me he isn't worth a top-5 pick because he has been injured in the past?

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  5. #423
    Situational Stopper B3team's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdog1 View Post
    Also if you look at the circumstances the Thunder have, which is "win now" despite what anyone thinks, it makes it a fairy realistic possibility. Absorb some salary (Perk), and get a pick back. Basically what we did with the Mo Williams for Davis trade, although I hope this pick doesn't become #1 overall this year lol.
    Top 5 reasons why I think the Thunder maybe are NOT in a win-now mode and may not want to make that trade:

    1. They traded Harden for draft picks. Obviously if they are in win-now, they keep their best playmaker and 6th man of the year.

    2. They have their core players locked up on long term deals. No threat of losing your superstars.

    3. Their fan base loves the team and I haven't heard any "win it all this year or Presti should be fired" from the fans.

    3. They may not beat the Heat, even with Andy. If you add Andy to that team, I just don't think they would be favored vs the Heat in a 7 game series as long as Ray Allen is healthy.

    4. Presti is very disciplined and doesn't seem like the type to get anxious and sacrifice future success.

    5. OKC has a great player development system and culture. A top 5 pick has a very high chance of being an excellent player for the next 10 years at OKC.

    Sometimes, I think fans assume that each team has 1 goal- to win a championship at all costs. This is true for teams like NYC and LAL that have unlimited cash and can always retool in free agency. For the small markets, growth and sustainability are probably huge considerations in all decisions. Creating a long term, winning, profitable organization is probably closer to their true goal than winning a single 'ship.

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  7. #424
    A Dream of Spring CardiacCavs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Andy is playing like an all star right now. Consistently grabbing 15+ rebounds every night, finishing plays with both his inside scoring and a vastly improved outside shot. It makes me wonder if Andy had that good of a shot for a while now, but he was never allowed to use it during the game. Fred keeps mentioning during the game that coach Scott told Andy to basically not hold back, and take any open shot you get. Now that he is, he seems to be making them more often than not.

    I remember the first thread I ever made. It was during the Lebron years when we were looking for a "stretch 4", before we acquired Jamison. I wondered if it was possible for Andy to improve his jumper and become that stretch four. Most people thought his crooked looking shot would never amount to anything. Funny how things turn out. Makes you wonder how things may have turned out differently during that era if Andy was playing at the level he is now.

  8. #425
    Hall of Famer Mdog1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by B3team View Post
    Top 5 reasons why I think the Thunder maybe are NOT in a win-now mode and may not want to make that trade:

    1. They traded Harden for draft picks. Obviously if they are in win-now, they keep their best playmaker and 6th man of the year.

    They traded Harden because they couldn't afford to keep him long term. Houston offered him 24 million dollars more than OKC did. They also got a player in return that everyone knows can score the ball if he's healthy. Martin's scoring ability was never in question.

    2. They have their core players locked up on long term deals. No threat of losing your superstars.

    Welcome to the 2007 Cavs where LeBron was still under contract. Fast forward to 2010, and he's taking his talents to South Beach.

    3. Their fan base loves the team and I haven't heard any "win it all this year or Presti should be fired" from the fans.

    Of course they do. They just got the team, and they're already legitimate title contenders. Even people in Miami find the time to go to games when the team is good...

    3. They may not beat the Heat, even with Andy. If you add Andy to that team, I just don't think they would be favored vs the Heat in a 7 game series as long as Ray Allen is healthy.

    They might not even get the opportunity to try without Andy... They would be at a huge disadvantage against the Lakers in the playoffs. Perkins can't guard Dwight Howard at all.

    4. Presti is very disciplined and doesn't seem like the type to get anxious and sacrifice future success.

    Future success isn't important when your goal is a title. Do you think the Celtics would want back what they traded to acquire Allen, and Garnett? Actually a funny side note they did trade for Green lol.

    5. OKC has a great player development system and culture. A top 5 pick has a very high chance of being an excellent player for the next 10 years at OKC.

    That's great and all, but if that player isn't a star right away, and it takes him 3 years to bust out like it did Durant, and Westbrook, and Harden then Kevin Durant is gone because his contract is up, and instead of adding a star, they lose one. Hell that's if they get the pick this year, which if the early season is any indication they won't because it is a protected pick, and Toronto has been putrid so far. If the Raptors retain their pick, and get a good player out of it then maybe they make the playoffs next year, and then OKC doesn't see that pick in 2014 either.

    Sometimes, I think fans assume that each team has 1 goal- to win a championship at all costs. This is true for teams like NYC and LAL that have unlimited cash and can always retool in free agency. For the small markets, growth and sustainability are probably huge considerations in all decisions. Creating a long term, winning, profitable organization is probably closer to their true goal than winning a single 'ship.
    Long term is non existant when you have a player like Durant. He was "loyal" to the money, not the team when he signed his extension. People point to him signing the max deal as him wanting to stay there forever, well i've got news for everyone that thinks that, if he hadn't done that then he would have been a free agent under the new CBA, which at the time of his signing was a complete unknown to him, and everyone else. He signed to take advantage of the old familiar CBA, and it's a good thing he did because he made himself a few million dollars with that move.

    If OKC doesn't win a title in the next 4 years I am willing to bet that Durant is not in an OKC jersey after free agency.

  9. #426
    Birthing All-Stars Löttery Göd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by B3team View Post
    Top 5 reasons why I think the Thunder maybe are NOT in a win-now mode and may not want to make that trade:

    1. They traded Harden for draft picks. Obviously if they are in win-now, they keep their best playmaker and 6th man of the year.

    2. They have their core players locked up on long term deals. No threat of losing your superstars.

    3. Their fan base loves the team and I haven't heard any "win it all this year or Presti should be fired" from the fans.

    3. They may not beat the Heat, even with Andy. If you add Andy to that team, I just don't think they would be favored vs the Heat in a 7 game series as long as Ray Allen is healthy.

    4. Presti is very disciplined and doesn't seem like the type to get anxious and sacrifice future success.

    5. OKC has a great player development system and culture. A top 5 pick has a very high chance of being an excellent player for the next 10 years at OKC.

    Sometimes, I think fans assume that each team has 1 goal- to win a championship at all costs. This is true for teams like NYC and LAL that have unlimited cash and can always retool in free agency. For the small markets, growth and sustainability are probably huge considerations in all decisions. Creating a long term, winning, profitable organization is probably closer to their true goal than winning a single 'ship.
    You could also just as easily turn this around to say that the Thunder ARE in win-now mode:

    1. The trading of Harden was a financial move because what he brought per dollar spent was not worth a max contract, nor could the team afford it at the time. Thus, the trading of him could have had nothing to do with not wanting to win and more so with money. Also, Westbrook has always averaged more assists per 36 minutes and had a higher ast% than Harden, thus making a good argument for Westbrook being the best playmaker and not Harden. Also, K-Mart has been doing great in replacing the production of Harden. Furthermore, Harden did shit against the Heat. He played just horribly, so, if history is any indicator, K-Mart could just keep on doing what he's doing and outproduce what Harden did in the finals.

    2. The core players may be locked up, but who is to say that they wouldn't search elsewhere if they continually lose year after year and even force their own team to give up on free agents and trades for good player because those free agents or traded players won't sign or resign in OKC because of the uncertainty of their players signing? LeBron did it.

    3. The fact of the matter is that the average fan is always in win-now mode. It is only people like those on RCF and the like that understand what it means to build a team for the long run. I think that the majority of the OKC fan base would approve of the trade of the Raptors pick for Varejao if asked.

    4. They could very well beat the Heat with Andy. With LeBron and Bosh both playing in the post now, they need more internal defenders than ever. Ibaka and Andy could control the paint unlike any combo in the league. If OKC held their own against the Heat last season while Harden was playing like shit and there were some horrible ref calls, then adding Andy could easily put them over despite Ray Allen being added. Andy's production>Ray Allen's production. Also, Wade's a year older and slower.

    5. Presti is very disciplined, but plans have different stages of them. Presti may feel that he needs to cash in on the assets that he's collected over the years and bring in a player like Varejao to make them instant champion favorites.

    You make a good last point about sustainability of profits being a good thing for small market teams, but look at the Cavs. We know for sure that Dan Gilbert is doing everything in his power to bring a championship to this small-market team, and we're using the same methods as OKC thus far. Dan Gilbert is a true fan's owner. He is a fan of the team and wants them to win the ultimate prize. I'm not saying that the Thunder feel the same way, but I'm just showing you an example of a team that is a small-market team that sees a championship as the ultimate prize.
    "For the Tank God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Tank Son, Antawn Jamison, and whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting high draft picks." - Tank 3:16

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  11. #427
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    I think the main thing you have to look at is that, dollar for dollar, Perkins and Varejao basically make the same amount of money for the same amount of years remaining on their respective contracts. Varejao gives the team that has him a much, much, much, much better value per dollar than Perkins does (at this point, Perkins' value is almost negative). Also, Perkins is only two years younger than Varejao and is significantly less productive with no indication that he will become magically more productive anytime soon (he has instead been trending downward).

    Varejao, on the other hand, has been trending upward for the past several years. Even though he has been hurt, he has also been better each of the past several seasons compared to the season before, which makes it appear as if he is just now hitting his prime. This sounds crazy, but given that the mileage on Varejao is less than that of even Kevin Durant (who is six years younger), this isn't entirely out of the question. Whether or not Varejao can stay healthy is the real question, but he's indisputably a much better value for the Thunder than Kendrick Perkins, and that bump in value would probably be worth a top ten pick in what many believe will be a relatively weak draft.

    When you look at trades like this, it's important to consider the facts above for both teams. The Thunder are stuck paying Kendrick Perkins, and the Harden trade indicated that their owner is cheap (which means they may be unlikely to amnesty Perkins). Perkins is an awful basketball player (below replacement level) and seems to hurt the team whenever he's on the court. Anderson Varejao is only two years older and has a similar contract for the same amount of years. Unlike Perkins, Varejao is a great basketball player who makes every team he's on better. He can also play more minutes per game than Perkins simply because he's not hurting the team on offense or defense every minute he's on the court.

    To me, this seems pretty cut and dry. It's really whether Oklahoma City values the asset (an uncertain pick) more than they value the chance to replace Perkins with someone who is actually good at basketball and who would instantly vault OKC up several notches.

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  13. #428
    Situational Stopper B3team's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdog1 View Post
    1. They traded Harden for draft picks. Obviously if they are in win-now, they keep their best playmaker and 6th man of the year.

    They traded Harden because they couldn't afford to keep him long term. Houston offered him 24 million dollars more than OKC did. They also got a player in return that everyone knows can score the ball if he's healthy. Martin's scoring ability was never in question.

    Exactly! they were thinking long term, not "win now" at all costs. You are acting like the Thunder had no choice and it was common knowledge that OKC was going to trade him. This is simply not true. Many people and analysts were shocked that OKC didn't go over the limit to sign Harden. The franchise would have still been profitable if they signed Harden by the way. The Thunder had a choice, go for the win-now, luxury tax and loss of flexibility route OR take a short term dip in quality for long term sustainability. The long term sustainability and flexibility trumped the "win now and splurge" strategy.

    2. They have their core players locked up on long term deals. No threat of losing your superstars.

    Welcome to the 2007 Cavs where LeBron was still under contract. Fast forward to 2010, and he's taking his talents to South Beach.

    No, this is nothing like the Cavs because Presti has maintained the flexibility and retained assets so that he can make future moves. The 2007 Cavs are a perfect example of a panicked win-now mentality that ultimately leads to failure. We sold the farm and had nothing left. If you can't see the difference in management from 2007 Cavs compared to OKC I don't know what to tell you. Just look at their assets and what they have on the table. Lebron left because we had no flexibility. No way to get better. No assets. Why would Durant leave when he knows he has a premier GM with a bucket full of assets at all times running the show? If Durant leaves because they don't win a championship, I'm not sure where he would go that would be better. OKC runs a heck of a franchise from the top down. OKC's future is going to be bright for a long time, provided they don't go into panic mode.

    3. Their fan base loves the team and I haven't heard any "win it all this year or Presti should be fired" from the fans.

    Of course they do. They just got the team, and they're already legitimate title contenders. Even people in Miami find the time to go to games when the team is good...

    Not sure what your point is here. I was just pointing out that there is currently no pressure to win a 'ship from the fans at this time.

    3. They may not beat the Heat, even with Andy. If you add Andy to that team, I just don't think they would be favored vs the Heat in a 7 game series as long as Ray Allen is healthy.

    They might not even get the opportunity to try without Andy... They would be at a huge disadvantage against the Lakers in the playoffs. Perkins can't guard Dwight Howard at all.

    So now they need Andy just for the opportunity to try to beat the Heat? I don't think that is true at all. My point was that no team in the NBA is going to be favorite against the Heat. Not OKC with Andy. Not the Lakers. Lebron is playing at GOAT level right now, and in the playoffs, when 2 teams are relatively evenly matched, the team with the brightest super star usually wins. No one is on Lebron's level at this time, unfortunately. Couple that with the fact that they simply do not call fouls on Lebron. I honestly can't remember the last time Lebron was in foul trouble despite his very physical play on both sides of the ball.

    4. Presti is very disciplined and doesn't seem like the type to get anxious and sacrifice future success.

    Future success isn't important when your goal is a title. Do you think the Celtics would want back what they traded to acquire Allen, and Garnett? Actually a funny side note they did trade for Green lol.


    I disagree. You are missing the whole point I am trying to make. Long term future success is the most important thing for small markets, that is the goal. The idea is that the 'ship takes care of itself if you build the franchise the right way. Sustained success through smart moves by management. You believe that the goal of the Thunder is to win a championship and then "mission accomplished", I think the goal is to build a long term culture that creates championships and winning for years to come.

    Good point regarding the Boston trade to bring the big 3 together. That was a risk that paid off for years down the line. I don't know how many people realistically expect AV to be this effective 5 years from now, so it is a little different of a situation.


    5. OKC has a great player development system and culture. A top 5 pick has a very high chance of being an excellent player for the next 10 years at OKC.

    That's great and all, but if that player isn't a star right away, and it takes him 3 years to bust out like it did Durant, and Westbrook, and Harden then Kevin Durant is gone because his contract is up, and instead of adding a star, they lose one. Hell that's if they get the pick this year, which if the early season is any indication they won't because it is a protected pick, and Toronto has been putrid so far. If the Raptors retain their pick, and get a good player out of it then maybe they make the playoffs next year, and then OKC doesn't see that pick in 2014 either.

    Wait, so if OKC gets the pick then it will take 3 years for him to develop? But if TOR gets the pick, he will develop right away and lead them out of the gutter? I think it is the opposite- and it all goes back to my point about the winning, long term culture of an organization. If OKC gets the pick, that pick has a much better chance of succeeding because of all the flexibility and assets the team has and the culture they have developed. Look at how good Martin is playing for the Thunder. If Toronto gets Shabazz or Noel or Zeller, guess what? - they are still going to suck.

    Sometimes, I think fans assume that each team has 1 goal- to win a championship at all costs. This is true for teams like NYC and LAL that have unlimited cash and can always retool in free agency. For the small markets, growth and sustainability are probably huge considerations in all decisions. Creating a long term, winning, profitable organization is probably closer to their true goal than winning a single 'ship.
    Long term is non existant when you have a player like Durant. He was "loyal" to the money, not the team when he signed his extension. People point to him signing the max deal as him wanting to stay there forever, well i've got news for everyone that thinks that, if he hadn't done that then he would have been a free agent under the new CBA, which at the time of his signing was a complete unknown to him, and everyone else. He signed to take advantage of the old familiar CBA, and it's a good thing he did because he made himself a few million dollars with that move.

    If OKC doesn't win a title in the next 4 years I am willing to bet that Durant is not in an OKC jersey after free agency.

    Where is he going to go? No one else can pay him more, and you already stated that Durant was loyal to money. You are contradicting yourself here. BTW, I love that players are loyal to money. They should be, I would be the same way. Heck, I am the same way- if a company across the street offered me more money, I would go.
    ...

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    Hall of Famer Mdog1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Exactly! they were thinking long term, not "win now" at all costs. You are acting like the Thunder had no choice and it was common knowledge that OKC was going to trade him. This is simply not true. Many people and analysts were shocked that OKC didn't go over the limit to sign Harden. The franchise would have still been profitable if they signed Harden by the way. The Thunder had a choice, go for the win-now, luxury tax and loss of flexibility route OR take a short term dip in quality for long term sustainability. The long term sustainability and flexibility trumped the "win now and splurge" strategy.
    They were thinking if he doesn't accept our offer, and someone offers him more money than the pennies we are offering him he is going to leave us. That has nothing to do with long term anything, that's called not being one of the dumbest front offices in the league ala Pheonix Suns who let Amare go for nothing. The thing is OKC proved that they can't afford a dynasty. If they do luck into getting another franchise player through this Toronto pick, it is only a matter of time until they are forced to trade either Westbrook, unknown player, or Ibaka anyways, since I doubt they would trade Durant.

    And they would not have been profitable under this new CBA. In a three years they would have been paying nearly 120 million dollars PER year for that team to stay together. Under this new CBA you can't have four guys on your team making more than 10 million dollars per year, and Durant would have been almost at 20 near the end of his contract, with Westbrook around 16 I believe, and Harden at 15 or so. Add in Ibaka, and for four players you have 61 million dollars tied up. In 2008 this number is insignificant because it was a 1:1 ratio on luxury tax, but in the future/now it is higher, and can go up to I think it's 3.25:1 ratio, so for 10 million in the luxury you're paying 32.5 million dollars. If you're like the Thunder, and have 60 million tied up in four players then chances are you're going to be in the 20 million over range, which would bring you're luxury tax bill to about 65 million dollars... PLUS THE COST OF YOUR ROSTER, which would be somewhere around 80 million.

    No, this is nothing like the Cavs because Presti has maintained the flexibility and retained assets so that he can make future moves. The 2007 Cavs are a perfect example of a panicked win-now mentality that ultimately leads to failure. We sold the farm and had nothing left. If you can't see the difference in management from 2007 Cavs compared to OKC I don't know what to tell you. Just look at their assets and what they have on the table. Lebron left because we had no flexibility. No way to get better. No assets. Why would Durant leave when he knows he has a premier GM with a bucket full of assets at all times running the show? If Durant leaves because they don't win a championship, I'm not sure where he would go that would be better. OKC runs a heck of a franchise from the top down. OKC's future is going to be bright for a long time, provided they don't go into panic mode.
    We didn't have many assets, that much is true. I was more or less saying that we all thught in 2007 after we made the finals it was just the beggining of our dynasty, and look how that turned out for us. Here we are rebuilding from the bottom. And OKC doesn't run a top flight franchise from top to bottom. They have one scumbag of an owner. If it wasn't for him I could actually find myself liking that team because all the players, except for Perkins are very likeable, but my god Bennet is a douchebag. Back to Bennet he is not a rich man like Gilbert, Cuban, Prokorhav or whatever, Dolan, Buss, Allen, etc. It is because of that that OKC made the Harden trade, not because they are some brilliant organization.

    OKC's future has 4 years including this one, if Durant doesn't have a PO, which i'm not sure on. If he doesn, than they have 3 years including this one to remain bright. Once he's gone that house of cards falls into mediocrity.

    So now they need Andy just for the opportunity to try to beat the Heat? I don't think that is true at all. My point was that no team in the NBA is going to be favorite against the Heat. Not OKC with Andy. Not the Lakers. Lebron is playing at GOAT level right now, and in the playoffs, when 2 teams are relatively evenly matched, the team with the brightest super star usually wins. No one is on Lebron's level at this time, unfortunately. Couple that with the fact that they simply do not call fouls on Lebron. I honestly can't remember the last time Lebron was in foul trouble despite his very physical play on both sides of the ball.
    If the Lakers put it all together then OKC as currently constructed would need monster series from both Durant, and Westbrook to beat the Lakers. Perkins is hot garbage, as is Collison, and Ibaka is not a great on ball defender. Ibaka is one hell of a shot blocker though, but since Pau is 20 feet from the hoop most of the game that really negates his shot blocking skills, and if they put him on Dwight he will be absolutely abused, and foul out in 20 minutes.

    Now with that said Westbrook going off against the Lakers shouldn't be that hard considering Steve Nash is the worst defender in the NBA, but they still have Dwight Howard waiting for him, and against Perkins he has to play no man to man defense, and could cheat incredibly hard off of him to stop Russell's attacks.

    Wait, so if OKC gets the pick then it will take 3 years for him to develop? But if TOR gets the pick, he will develop right away and lead them out of the gutter? I think it is the opposite- and it all goes back to my point about the winning, long term culture of an organization. If OKC gets the pick, that pick has a much better chance of succeeding because of all the flexibility and assets the team has and the culture they have developed. Look at how good Martin is playing for the Thunder. If Toronto gets Shabazz or Noel or Zeller, guess what? - they are still going to suck.
    It's this little thing called protection on the pick... If OKC gets that pick it is going to be at best 5th this year, which is a big drop off in what is being called a weak draft than the top 3 picks would be. Also Toronto plays in the East where getting to .500 will get you into the playoffs, so if Jonas develops more, Lowry is healthy, and let's just say Zeller is as good as advertised then yes they should be a playoff team.

    You say that in OKC that player has a better chance of being a stud than in Toronto because of culture, but I say the player has a better chance of being a stud in Toronto because of talent. The number 1-3 pick is generally a better player than the number 5-10 are, and there is a very solid reason for that. It's this little thing called talent that the best players show right from the get go meaning they generally develop better.

    Where is he going to go? No one else can pay him more, and you already stated that Durant was loyal to money. You are contradicting yourself here. BTW, I love that players are loyal to money. They should be, I would be the same way. Heck, I am the same way- if a company across the street offered me more money, I would go.
    That's not contradicting at all. If Durant stays in OKC he is eligable to start off at the exact same salary he would start off at if he were to go to Memphis (105% of previous salary). The difference is the raises, which is barely a difference at all in this new CBA. Over the life of the contract the difference would literally be like a million dollars a year.

    As for where he would go like I can predict the future 4 year in advance... If you asked me in 2005 where LeBron was going to go I would have said Cleveland or NYK. If you'd asked me in 2009 where I thought he was going to go again it was Cleveland, the Knicks, or Nets. In 2010 if you asked I would have said Chicago, Clippers, Cleveland, Nets, or Knicks.

    Where did LeBron go? Miami, literally the last place I thought he would go.

    The NBA will look so different in two years time that I could say the Lakers have the cap space to sign him today, and in two years bam the Knicks come out of nowhere with the cap space. It's way too early to know what his options will be, and maybe a team drafts smart, and has a couple of studs on rookie deals and offers Durant a contract, and he accepts. Who the hell knows.

    That's what i'm hoping we do in the next two years while we can.

  15. #430
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by "Boobie" Gibson View Post
    Nah you're right, age has a lot to do with it. I mean Gerald Wallace was only traded for the Nets lottery pick, so I doubt someone who is a much better player could net the same

    Best center in the Eastern Conference.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerr...egularseason/C

    Currently rated the best center in the NBA. But you're going to tell me he isn't worth a top-5 pick because he has been injured in the past?
    Now wait a second.

    I said the statement: "Andy is worth a top 5 pick MINIMUM" is a ridiculous statement.

    I would certainly try to use Andy to get that Toronto pick which should be between....3 and 8?

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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    1. The trading of Harden was a financial move because what he brought per dollar spent was not worth a max contract, nor could the team afford it at the time. Thus, the trading of him could have had nothing to do with not wanting to win and more so with money. Also, Westbrook has always averaged more assists per 36 minutes and had a higher ast% than Harden, thus making a good argument for Westbrook being the best playmaker and not Harden. Also, K-Mart has been doing great in replacing the production of Harden. Furthermore, Harden did shit against the Heat. He played just horribly, so, if history is any indicator, K-Mart could just keep on doing what he's doing and outproduce what Harden did in the finals.

    How is trading a proven player for future draft picks and a lower quality player a "win now" approach?

    2. The core players may be locked up, but who is to say that they wouldn't search elsewhere if they continually lose year after year and even force their own team to give up on free agents and trades for good player because those free agents or traded players won't sign or resign in OKC because of the uncertainty of their players signing? LeBron did it.

    Because players like money, and OKC can give him the most. Lebron is a tool who never gave the cavs a max extension. Durant already gave more commitment to OKC than Lebron ever gave the cavs. And it is not like OKC is "losing". They are a great team. Only 1 team can win it all every year, and we are in an era where the GOAT is playing on a stacked team.

    3. The fact of the matter is that the average fan is always in win-now mode. It is only people like those on RCF and the like that understand what it means to build a team for the long run. I think that the majority of the OKC fan base would approve of the trade of the Raptors pick for Varejao if asked.

    I agree, most fans are always in win now mode.

    4. They could very well beat the Heat with Andy. With LeBron and Bosh both playing in the post now, they need more internal defenders than ever. Ibaka and Andy could control the paint unlike any combo in the league. If OKC held their own against the Heat last season while Harden was playing like shit and there were some horrible ref calls, then adding Andy could easily put them over despite Ray Allen being added. Andy's production>Ray Allen's production. Also, Wade's a year older and slower.

    They could beat Miami with Andy, I suppose. I guess it's possible they beat them without him also, I just don't think either are likely.

    5. Presti is very disciplined, but plans have different stages of them. Presti may feel that he needs to cash in on the assets that he's collected over the years and bring in a player like Varejao to make them instant champion favorites.

    They wouldn't be instant championship favorites though. -I think we just disagree here. The Heat added a deadly 3 point shooter HOFer that makes double/triple teaming Lebron a gamble every time. OKC lost Harden and gain Varajeo. Heat win that series in 5 or 6 IMO. The problem is Lebron is the best player on the court by a lot, even considering how awesome Durant is.

    You make a good last point about sustainability of profits being a good thing for small market teams, but look at the Cavs. We know for sure that Dan Gilbert is doing everything in his power to bring a championship to this small-market team, and we're using the same methods as OKC thus far. Dan Gilbert is a true fan's owner. He is a fan of the team and wants them to win the ultimate prize. I'm not saying that the Thunder feel the same way, but I'm just showing you an example of a team that is a small-market team that sees a championship as the ultimate prize.[/QUOTE]

    But it didn't work for us. We went all out and went "win now" and we paid the price. Lebron left us and we didn't have anything. Bad asset management. Just because Dan Gilbert had the best intentions does not mean that was what was best for the franchise. I love what OKC is doing, and if I was them, I would hold that draft pick and develop another allstar so that franchise can just keep on keepin on.

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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdog1 View Post
    They were thinking if he doesn't accept our offer, and someone offers him more money than the pennies we are offering him he is going to leave us. That has nothing to do with long term anything, that's called not being one of the dumbest front offices in the league ala Pheonix Suns who let Amare go for nothing. The thing is OKC proved that they can't afford a dynasty. If they do luck into getting another franchise player through this Toronto pick, it is only a matter of time until they are forced to trade either Westbrook, unknown player, or Ibaka anyways, since I doubt they would trade Durant.

    And they would not have been profitable under this new CBA. In a three years they would have been paying nearly 120 million dollars PER year for that team to stay together. Under this new CBA you can't have four guys on your team making more than 10 million dollars per year, and Durant would have been almost at 20 near the end of his contract, with Westbrook around 16 I believe, and Harden at 15 or so. Add in Ibaka, and for four players you have 61 million dollars tied up. In 2008 this number is insignificant because it was a 1:1 ratio on luxury tax, but in the future/now it is higher, and can go up to I think it's 3.25:1 ratio, so for 10 million in the luxury you're paying 32.5 million dollars. If you're like the Thunder, and have 60 million tied up in four players then chances are you're going to be in the 20 million over range, which would bring you're luxury tax bill to about 65 million dollars... PLUS THE COST OF YOUR ROSTER, which would be somewhere around 80 million.



    We didn't have many assets, that much is true. I was more or less saying that we all thught in 2007 after we made the finals it was just the beggining of our dynasty, and look how that turned out for us. Here we are rebuilding from the bottom. And OKC doesn't run a top flight franchise from top to bottom. They have one scumbag of an owner. If it wasn't for him I could actually find myself liking that team because all the players, except for Perkins are very likeable, but my god Bennet is a douchebag. Back to Bennet he is not a rich man like Gilbert, Cuban, Prokorhav or whatever, Dolan, Buss, Allen, etc. It is because of that that OKC made the Harden trade, not because they are some brilliant organization.

    OKC's future has 4 years including this one, if Durant doesn't have a PO, which i'm not sure on. If he doesn, than they have 3 years including this one to remain bright. Once he's gone that house of cards falls into mediocrity.



    If the Lakers put it all together then OKC as currently constructed would need monster series from both Durant, and Westbrook to beat the Lakers. Perkins is hot garbage, as is Collison, and Ibaka is not a great on ball defender. Ibaka is one hell of a shot blocker though, but since Pau is 20 feet from the hoop most of the game that really negates his shot blocking skills, and if they put him on Dwight he will be absolutely abused, and foul out in 20 minutes.

    Now with that said Westbrook going off against the Lakers shouldn't be that hard considering Steve Nash is the worst defender in the NBA, but they still have Dwight Howard waiting for him, and against Perkins he has to play no man to man defense, and could cheat incredibly hard off of him to stop Russell's attacks.



    It's this little thing called protection on the pick... If OKC gets that pick it is going to be at best 5th this year, which is a big drop off in what is being called a weak draft than the top 3 picks would be. Also Toronto plays in the East where getting to .500 will get you into the playoffs, so if Jonas develops more, Lowry is healthy, and let's just say Zeller is as good as advertised then yes they should be a playoff team.

    You say that in OKC that player has a better chance of being a stud than in Toronto because of culture, but I say the player has a better chance of being a stud in Toronto because of talent. The number 1-3 pick is generally a better player than the number 5-10 are, and there is a very solid reason for that. It's this little thing called talent that the best players show right from the get go meaning they generally develop better.



    That's not contradicting at all. If Durant stays in OKC he is eligable to start off at the exact same salary he would start off at if he were to go to Memphis (105% of previous salary). The difference is the raises, which is barely a difference at all in this new CBA. Over the life of the contract the difference would literally be like a million dollars a year.

    As for where he would go like I can predict the future 4 year in advance... If you asked me in 2005 where LeBron was going to go I would have said Cleveland or NYK. If you'd asked me in 2009 where I thought he was going to go again it was Cleveland, the Knicks, or Nets. In 2010 if you asked I would have said Chicago, Clippers, Cleveland, Nets, or Knicks.

    Where did LeBron go? Miami, literally the last place I thought he would go.

    The NBA will look so different in two years time that I could say the Lakers have the cap space to sign him today, and in two years bam the Knicks come out of nowhere with the cap space. It's way too early to know what his options will be, and maybe a team drafts smart, and has a couple of studs on rookie deals and offers Durant a contract, and he accepts. Who the hell knows.

    That's what i'm hoping we do in the next two years while we can.
    I didn't realize they would be coming out of pocket 120 million, if that is true, then I am wrong about them being profitable while retaining Harden.

    "OKC's future has 4 years including this one, if Durant doesn't have a PO, which i'm not sure on. If he doesn, than they have 3 years including this one to remain bright. Once he's gone that house of cards falls into mediocrity."


    This is what I am saying they are trying to avoid. They are trying to build a winning culture so that they aren't a gutter team without Durant. Thats why you keep acquiring assets so that you always have a bright future, even after Durant. That's why you keep top draft picks instead of cashing them in for a 30 year old.

    If the Lakers put it all together then OKC as currently constructed would need monster series from both Durant, and Westbrook to beat the Lakers.
    I don't think so, I don't think that LAL team can run with the Thunder. Even if you are correct, that is my point. OKC took one step back so they could pick up assets and gain flexibility. My original post was that they aren't in win-now mode. Maybe you think they should be, but I am just saying that I don't think they are.

    You say that in OKC that player has a better chance of being a stud than in Toronto because of culture, but I say the player has a better chance of being a stud in Toronto because of talent. The number 1-3 pick is generally a better player than the number 5-10 are, and there is a very solid reason for that. It's this little thing called talent that the best players show right from the get go meaning they generally develop better.


    The Wizards say hello.

    That's not contradicting at all. If Durant stays in OKC he is eligable to start off at the exact same salary he would start off at if he were to go to Memphis (105% of previous salary). The difference is the raises, which is barely a difference at all in this new CBA. Over the life of the contract the difference would literally be like a million dollars a year.


    doesn't the home team get to sign him to a longer deal with bigger raises? Are you assuming OKC trades him ala Howard, D Williams, Lebron?

    Where did LeBron go? Miami, literally the last place I thought he would go.
    The Lebron thing happened in the old CBA.

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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRob12 View Post
    what about AV and SAC pick to OKC for those two picks they got from Houston
    Just doesn't seem worth it to me.

    Feels like making a trade just to make a trade.
    .
    .
    .

    "Paul Allen has mistaken me for this dickhead Marcus Halberstram. It seems logical because Marcus also works at P&P and in fact does the same exact thing I do and he also has a penchant for Valentino suits and Oliver Peoples glasses. Marcus and I even go to the same barber, although I have a slightly better haircut."[/CENTER]

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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by "Boobie" Gibson View Post
    Nah you're right, age has a lot to do with it. I mean Gerald Wallace was only traded for the Nets lottery pick, so I doubt someone who is a much better player could net the same

    Best center in the Eastern Conference.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerr...egularseason/C

    Currently rated the best center in the NBA. But you're going to tell me he isn't worth a top-5 pick because he has been injured in the past?
    lol

    currently rated the best center in the nba....according to a completely useless set of ratings/rankings. yay!!

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    Default Re: Anderson Varejao Trade Ideas

    Andy has been playing like a hall of famer this season. I don't know if he can sustain it, but you have to trade him for the most you can get. Not a trade for trade's sake, but if a legitimate offer comes in for youth, and also comes with a pick and a player that the cavs actually want, not a fill in player, I don't see how you can not pull the trigger.

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