The Andre Drummond Thread

[RealKingofCleve]

Grant knew we needed offensive help. Drummond didn't provide that, particularly not paired in a front court with TT given where their respective games are at.

He basically traded long term for short term as Dion helps more this year than Drummond likely would offensively.

Long term though we would have had a defensive stopper at center had we gutted through another year of misery offensively before we could draft a Shabazz type.

I would feel like the Thunder long term if we had a Kyrie/Shabazz/Drummond big 3 vs. a Kyrie/Waiters/Shabazz big 3.

Waiters offered more immediate help this year than Drummond, but the long term trade off is painful because we won't get another bite at a Drummond type apple while there is a Waiters type in every draft.

Drummond is a much better player than Dion right now.

[PATRICK EWING]

Is it a coincidence that the same teams are in the lottery almost every year?

No... Cause fact of the matter is unless you're in a desirable spot, you're not attracting top talent to play for your squad... In most cases conventional wisdom would suggest it would take several seasons to "draft" a contender.. By time you're ready, that guy you drafted to start this thing finds himself with the Lakers...

[Jack Brickman]

Is it a coincidence that the same teams are in the lottery almost every year?

No, but that doesn't mean it's entirely to do with drafting.

Take Sacramento. Aside from Jimmer, they've drafted quite well. Tyreke Evans was rookie of the year. Cousins has the potential to be one of the best bigs in the league. Robinson was considered to be one of the best prospects in the 2012 draft. Isaiah Thomas was a steal with the 60th pick last year. Sacramento's problem is that their culture is completely toxic, they're unwilling to hire a coach with the gravitas to command the locker room, and they have a habit of getting players who just don't fit together at all. They had a ball-dominating guard in Tyreke Evans, so naturally they felt the best course of action was to bring in several more ball-dominating guards, which basically neutered Evans and left him ineffective. Sacramento also struggles from developing their players, as they don't appear to get better each year, and in fact often regress.

Or how about Detroit? They're another team that has drafted pretty well. They got Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond, both of whom look like they can be great players. They got Brandon Knight, who was arguably the second-best guard prospect in last year's draft. So what was their problem? Well, handing out toxic contracts was one. They gave Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva large, long-term deals that really hampered their team's development and also left their young players with less minutes. They hung on to veterans like Hamilton and Prince when they should have embraced the rebuild and cleared their books. They hired a coach who quickly lost the respect of his locker room and had to be fired. Oh, and they had to trade away a draft pick just to get Gordon's contract off the books.

Much like Sacramento, Washington's problem appears to be a toxic culture and bad management more than anything else. They seemingly whiffed on the Vesely pick, but they've made plenty of other picks that seem solid, including Wall (a no-brainer), Beal (still pending), and Seraphin. What did they do wrong? Well, they hung on to general manager Ernie Grunfeld after an ownership change despite Grunfeld having several years to prove he was a terrible GM. They also fired one bad coach and replaced him with his back-up who was arguably a worse coach (based on the rest of his career). Then they made a couple of bad trades in an ill-advised attempt to "win now" despite the fact that they didn't appear to be anywhere near ready to do so.

So you see, there's much more to failing consistently than simply bad drafting. In fact, most teams that are consistent lottery teams draft generally well. However, they fail to develop their young players, give out bad contracts, neglect to create a good culture, and hire GMs who continually make terrible decisions (or, if they're Sacramento, pretty much all of the above).

[Goldin Brown]

Wow, this thread is really depressing. I wanted Drummond on draft day, but was not upset with the Dion pick. Uh, I like Dion a lot, really want him to be successful but looks like we missed the boat on this one. Drummond has looked pretty legit from day one. I'm going to continue to root for Dion to be great, but damn.

[RealKingofCleve]

No, but that doesn't mean it's entirely to do with drafting.

Take Sacramento. Aside from Jimmer, they've drafted quite well. Tyreke Evans was rookie of the year. Cousins has the potential to be one of the best bigs in the league. Robinson was considered to be one of the best prospects in the 2012 draft. Isaiah Thomas was a steal with the 60th pick last year. Sacramento's problem is that their culture is completely toxic, they're unwilling to hire a coach with the gravitas to command the locker room, and they have a habit of getting players who just don't fit together at all. They had a ball-dominating guard in Tyreke Evans, so naturally they felt the best course of action was to bring in several more ball-dominating guards, which basically neutered Evans and left him ineffective. Sacramento also struggles from developing their players, as they don't appear to get better each year, and in fact often regress.

Or how about Detroit? They're another team that has drafted pretty well. They got Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond, both of whom look like they can be great players. They got Brandon Knight, who was arguably the second-best guard prospect in last year's draft. So what was their problem? Well, handing out toxic contracts was one. They gave Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva large, long-term deals that really hampered their team's development and also left their young players with less minutes. They hung on to veterans like Hamilton and Prince when they should have embraced the rebuild and cleared their books. They hired a coach who quickly lost the respect of his locker room and had to be fired. Oh, and they had to trade away a draft pick just to get Gordon's contract off the books.

Much like Sacramento, Washington's problem appears to be a toxic culture and bad management more than anything else. They seemingly whiffed on the Vesely pick, but they've made plenty of other picks that seem solid, including Wall (a no-brainer), Beal (still pending), and Seraphin. What did they do wrong? Well, they hung on to general manager Ernie Grunfeld after an ownership change despite Grunfeld having several years to prove he was a terrible GM. They also fired one bad coach and replaced him with his back-up who was arguably a worse coach (based on the rest of his career). Then they made a couple of bad trades in an ill-advised attempt to "win now" despite the fact that they didn't appear to be anywhere near ready to do so.

So you see, there's much more to failing consistently than simply bad drafting. In fact, most teams that are consistent lottery teams draft generally well. However, they fail to develop their young players, give out bad contracts, neglect to create a good culture, and hire GMs who continually make terrible decisions (or, if they're Sacramento, pretty much all of the above).

Tyreke Evans blows. Thomas Robinson looks horrible and Cousins is a headcase. Washington has drafted shitty. The only team you mentioned that has drafted well is Detroit and I generally like their future prospects. Most teams consistently in the lottery draft poorly.

[Jack Brickman]

Tyreke Evans blows. Thomas Robinson looks horrible and Cousins is a headcase. Washington has drafted shitty. The only team you mentioned that has drafted well is Detroit and I generally like their future prospects. Most teams consistently in the lottery draft poorly.

Tyreke Evans looked great his rookie year. He simply hasn't developed further since, which is often on the organization. Cousins being a headcase was the reason he wasn't drafted first or second, but aside from that fact that Sacramento was the wrong place for him to end up culture-wise, no one thought he was a reach where he was drafted and he has looked like a potential superstar at times. And Robinson has sucked so far, but no one considered him a reach at five, and in fact he was rumored to be in the running for the second pick in the draft.

I'm not sure how you think Washington has drafted so shitty. After all, they drafted the guy half the people here wanted us to trade up to get. They whiffed on Vesely, but what other recent picks have they had that have been so terrible?

You're providing no actual evidence with your arguments. Who are these awful picks and why were they awful? You even have the benefit of hindsight, which none of the GMs in question have had.

[RealKingofCleve]

Tyreke Evans looked great his rookie year. He simply hasn't developed further since, which is often on the organization. Cousins being a headcase was the reason he wasn't drafted first or second, but aside from that fact that Sacramento was the wrong place for him to end up culture-wise, no one thought he was a reach where he was drafted and he has looked like a potential superstar at times. And Robinson has sucked so far, but no one considered him a reach at five, and in fact he was rumored to be in the running for the second pick in the draft.

I'm not sure how you think Washington has drafted so shitty. After all, they drafted the guy half the people here wanted us to trade up to get. They whiffed on Vesely, but what other recent picks have they had that have been so terrible?

You're providing no actual evidence with your arguments. Who are these awful picks and why were they awful? You even have the benefit of hindsight, which none of the GMs in question have had.

Of course I'm basing these evaluations off of hind sight. I don't care that Chad Ford or draft express thought Thomas Robinson was a top 5 pick. An NBA gm has to draft quality players based on their own scouting methods.

But the bottom line is if you're drafting is on the money you will be hard pressed to not be successful. People get annoyed pointing at the OKC model, but their drafting was pretty much unrivaled. Not only did they draft Durant, Harden, Westbrook and Ibaka (Sonics). But they drafted Bledsoe who looks like he will be a really good player and even Mullens is showing some signs.

Getting really off topic, look at all the quality players the Spurs have picked late in the draft. The Rockets grabbed a really nice player in the second round in Parsons who the Cavs could really use. Hopefully the Cavs players continue to grow, but I do not believe they are maximizing what they could be doing with their draft picks like many other teams consistently in the lottery.

[Zone]

I'm not sure how you think Washington has drafted so shitty. After all, they drafted the guy half the people here wanted us to trade up to get. They whiffed on Vesely, but what other recent picks have they had that have been so terrible?

To be fair, Washington also had a top-6 pick in the 2009 draft that they traded to Minnesota (and ended up being Ricky Rubio) for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

2 miscues of using a top-6 pick in 4 years might make the beginnings of a pretty good case that they're not the strongest when it comes to the draft.

[KB]

Best write up I've read on Drummond so far all season

http://hoopspeak.com/2013/01/andre-d...-on-the-march/

Andre Drummond is on the march
By Beckley Mason, on January 3rd, 2013

When Greg Monroe jokingly suggested that Andre Drummond’s nickname should be “Big Penguin,” he certainly wasn’t taking into account Drummond’s enormous wingspan and habit of flying through the air to snatch his meals high above the rim.

And as Drummond entered the 2012 Draft, that he possessed these physical abilities seemed to be the only givens about his game. Questions were everywhere: Would he be in shape? Did he love basketball enough to improve some of his glaring weaknesses (he is only shooting 40 percent from the free throw line)? Was he Kwame Brown or Dwight Howard?

For now, stop looking for the nuances and artistry traditionally associated with franchise big men. Here’s what counts: Andre Drummond can dunk and rebound at the highest level in the NBA.

Look at this comparison to Team USA starting center Tyson Chandler’s numbers this year, focusing on per/36 numbers and advanced stats. (Click image to enlarge.)

The two big men have identical PERs and Drummond is already a better rebounder and shot blocker, while fouling and turning the ball over at virtually the same rate. Basically, many advanced stats suggest at 19 years old, Drummond is a consistent free throw shot away from mimicking Chandler’s production.

Of course, Drummond is still a long, long ways from understanding team defensive concepts well enough to improve consistently defensive patch holes left by his weaker teammates the way Chandler does. Sure Drummond blocks and alters shots — sometimes from out of nowhere like a shark exploding out of the ocean with a seal in its jaws — however the Pistons don’t play better defense with him on the court.

But no one should expect 18 year olds to deliver on defense. Even a player like Kevin Garnett, who will likely be remembered as one of the great defenders in NBA history, didn’t make the Timberwolves an above average defense until his fourth season.

(As an aside, that’s why I was wary of Anthony Davis for Rookie of the Year hype. Defense in the NBA, especially team defense and especially for big men, is one of the toughest things to master and what Davis has the potential to do — essentially be Garnett with more lateral quickness — would take seasons, not weeks, to develop. Some rookies, like Damian Lillard, come in to the league with NBA-ready offensive games, but all of them are at least somewhat raw defensively when it comes to implementing the complex schemes of today’s NBA.)

Back to Tyson Chandler, who has, as Ethan Sherwood Strauss put it on HoopSpeak, an effective, “minimalist” offensive game:

Tyson Chandler can’t shoot well, or dribble well, and he’s a bit skinny. Though, I sometimes wonder whether he’d be worse for his team were he any more blessed in those categories. His lack of a jump shot has led to a cartoonish 70% field goal mark. His lack of a handle has led to one turnover per game. His lack of bulk means fewer shotclock ticks sacrificed to the altar of dribble-dribble-back-down post-ups. New York’s big man enters a game, and only expertly controls a manageable amount of reality.

At 19, Drummond is essentially the same type of offensive player as Tyson Chandler, the guy who has been at the top of the NBA in offensive rating (a messy but meaningful stat when replicated over multiple years), precisely because he can only do two things: catch and finish well above the rim and thoroughly dominate the offensive glass.

According to Synergy, a full 71 percent of Drummond’s possessions come as the finisher on cuts, pick-and-rolls and offensive rebounds. For Chandler, that number is 76 percent, though by virtue of playing on a far better offensive team, 33 percent of his possessions come on pick-and-rolls versus Drummond’s 13 percent.

Drummond might actually have better hands than Chandler already, and will occasionally, seemingly by accident, pull off a dribble move that speaks to the potential for enormous growth as a finisher on straight-line drives from the perimeter.

Now Big Penguin will also throw up some shots that look about as graceful as his namesake trying to flip itself up onto an ice sheet. He doesn’t have the sense of discretion when he gets the ball that Chandler, now in his twelfth season, routinely displays. But boy if he doesn’t project to be at least a more athletic, skilled Tyson Chandler when it comes to rolling with authority and dominating the offensive glass.

In fact, take a look at Chandler’s statistics in his fifth season versus Drummond in his first, a comparison that flatters the youngster. (Click image to enlarge.)

We should probably talk more about that offensive rebounding, too, because it speaks to the core of not only why the Pistons offense is nearly 10 points per 100 possessions better when Drummond is on the court, but why basketball fans should be so very pleased with Drummond’s first season.

Remember those questions about motor?

This Drummond character is rebounding better than Mr. Motor himself, Kenneth Faried (though who knows what kind of stats 6-6 Faried would slap up with Drummond’s size). There’s a lot of technique to rebounding, but to some degree it boils down to the player’s willingness to go after the ball. With his size, quickness and hops, Drummond has almost unmatched access to rebounds, but he also hasn’t hesitated to throw his body at the rim and bust through box outs to get his mitts on the ball. If you had told GMs that Drummond, who had a paltry 14.9 rebounding percentage in college would already have a top-5 rebound percentage in the league at 25.2 percent, there’s just no way he would have fallen out of the top 3 at the Draft.

So if Drummond is such an outstanding young player, why is he only playing 19.5 minutes per night?

Pistons coach Lawrence Frank has been asked this all season, and his answer is pretty much that they have a plan to bring him along at a certain pace and that just because he’s playing well doesn’t mean there aren’t other factors to consider. Typically, especially with a team like the Pistons that will be back in the lottery this summer, it seems worth it to just let the kid play and learn on the job.

But I side with Frank on this one, because it seems to be having the effect of keeping Drummond’s goals and demands manageable. He doesn’t need to carry a team, he just needs to focus on hitting the glass, being in the right place on defense and playing with maximum intensity. It’s hard for any player, let alone a 19-year-old rookie, to do just that much. Most veterans know when to coast and when to turn it up, but the Pistons need Drummond to get used to having his motor revved all the way up before he learns about conserving energy.

Almost any basketball moment reflects a complex network of relations — where players are standing or moving, what their tendencies are, the individual decisions made — but Detroit’s staff has helped Drummond understand the most important relationship for his career: that when he goes all out he can dominate the space in front of the rim. If he learns nothing else than a fierce desire to consistently do that in his first season, it will still be a fantastic success.

Oh, and one other thing, if you’re wondering what a more athletic Tyson Chandler might look like …

[Jon]

Actually, there are signs that the Pistons do play better defense when Drummond is on the court, but since he's started 0 games and played limited minutes with the starters there no way to do an apples to apples comparison.

There is one solid point of comparison, and the unit Knight-Stuckey-Prince-Monroe with Drummond kicks the snot of the same unit with Maxiell - both offensively and defensively.

[blue_kahuna]

Possible game saving block on a jump shot by Lou Williams and the Hawks.

[Biw]

Wow did we fuck up. I can be quoted as saying Drummond would be a guy we will regret not taking before the draft. Unfortunately I think I was right.

[Jon]

Blocking that 3pt game winning shot attempt was Anthony Davisesque.

[mAo_mAo]

Fuckity fuck. We did miss out. Chris Grant probably does not want anyone on the team bigger than him. Only possible reason.

[Pioneer10]

Possible game saving block on a jump shot by Lou Williams and the Hawks.

That was the one thing that stuck about Drummond in college: Varejao like defense on the perimeter. Rare to find in a big man. I wasn't sure about him overall but his defense was always the most promising thing about him

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