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  1. #106
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    This is pretty much how I feel. The prequel trilogy has no heart. It's a bunch of soulless CGI designed to sell toys.

    The original Star Wars was one of the originators of the "used future" idea. Things were dirty and felt like people lived there. The prequel trilogy has that fake, anesthetic look where everything looks like it was designed solely for the movie. Nothing feels real or lived in. The staggering amount of CGI also takes away from the trilogy as a whole. CGI should be used to enhance a scene or to show something that can't be done easily with regular special effects. It shouldn't be used to create basic fucking sets, and the fact that Lucas used it so damn much really hurt the prequels in my mind because that's what gave them that anesthetic feel.

    I really don't see what the third movie did differently from the first two aside from being rated PG-13 for some reason. All of the fights were stupid and ridiculous. Does anyone remember the fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in A New Hope? The fight itself was awful, but we cared about it because both characters were well-written and well-acted. I can't bring myself to care about any of the fights in the new movie because they are all over-choreographed to death and feature characters with almost no development, poor acting, and worse writing.

    The lightsaber fights in the original trilogy were great in part because of their simplicity. We were focused on the characters and their conflicts rather than the ridiculous choreography. When it comes to fighting, simple is almost always better than needlessly complex. This is the same thing that made the fights in the original The Matrix so much better than the ones in the two sequels.
    I thought the fights in the originals were pretty awful. Part of it was the time in which the movies were made. I liked the last one because the music was sweet and obviously the stakes were high.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I thought the fights in the originals were pretty awful. Part of it was the time in which the movies were made. I liked the last one because the music was sweet and obviously the stakes were high.
    I agree with Jack on this one completely. When Luke screams out and attacks Vader in that last battle I get chills everytime, and all they do is basic clashes that anyone can do in their backyard. Lucas actually told the actors that the lightsabers were supposed to be objects of immense power and weigh around 30 pounds, which is why everyone holds them with two hands until 6 where luke has developed his skills enough. Even then he only does a few one handed moves. Contrast that idea with General Grievous holding 4 at once, or Theo's helmet example and the difference in storytelling is clear. Heck one of my favorite parts about the originals is Han's skepticism over the whole "force" thing, but the prequels make him look mighty dumb considering the Jedi counsel was around when he was a kid.

    The fights in the original matrix vs the sequels is another excellent example by Jack. The original fights were much simpler, and each punch meant something, just like each swing in episode 5's fight between luke and vader meant something and was awesome, even though luke was about as good at deflecting objects as I would be.

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  4. #108
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Not saying you guys are wrong since it's all opinion, but I think nostalgia is playing a huge part in this discussion. Had Lucas made the prequels and included slow, plodding, boring lightsaber duels, everybody would be up in arms over it.

  5. #109
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Not saying you guys are wrong since it's all opinion, but I think nostalgia is playing a huge part in this discussion. Had Lucas made the prequels and included slow, plodding, boring lightsaber duels, everybody would be up in arms over it.
    I'm not saying that the fights should be like they were in A New Hope. That fight, by modern standards, would be pretty boring. It was a really old dude fighting with a stunt double. However, that fight actually meant something because, by that point in the movie, we cared about Obi-Wan as Luke's mentor and we recognized Darth Vader as an awesome bad guy. We also knew a bit of their shared history and thus the consequences of the fight meant something even if the actual action was sub-par at best.

    The difference between the fights in the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy is that the fights in the original have meaning. Obi-Wan and Darth Vader's duel was the mentor versus the former student. It was the good guy who couldn't resist the powers of evil versus the guy who couldn't save him from himself. Luke's first duel with Vader, on the other hand, was actually a really good, well-shot fight. It was the new student in a fight he had no hope of winning, and it also led to the reveal that Vader was his father. Similarly, the lightsaber duel in Jedi was equally awesome, and featured Luke giving in to the dark side, albeit temporarily, and beating down Vader as a result before taking the higher road.

    None of the fights in the prequel trilogy had anywhere near the emotion and character development to match the fights in the original trilogy. You can call it nostalgia, but I think it's rather the fact that the original three movies were, for the most part, all very good movies. They had great characters with great character arcs. The new trilogy lacked both of those aspects that made the original so special. Instead, the prequels seemed to assume that expensive CGI could take the place of actual human emotion. But it can't, and it never will.

    There's a reason why I can sit down and watch any of the original three Star Wars movies (especially Empire) any time and enjoy them. There's also a reason that I really have no desire to watch any of the prequel movies again. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. There are plenty of things I loved when I was a kid that I recognize as terrible now. Star Wars isn't one of them.

    To return to my original point, you can have awesome fights that aren't ridiculous and over-choreographed. As I mentioned, look at the fights in The Matrix. They were fantastic, but at the same time they were relatively simple. You could see and feel every blow, and as a result every blow had more impact to the viewer. There's much more impact in a simple fight than in a needlessly complex one.

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  7. #110
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    I don't think the originals are terrible.

    I just don't think the film aspects of them are as good as people think they are. Once again, things people bash the prequels for (acting, dialogue) aren't the greatest in the original trilogy either, but those movies get a pass for some reason on them. The originals are superior, I just feel people overrate them due to nostalgia, whether you want to admit it or not (I'm not inside your mind so I can't speak for you).

    I'll take watching the originals over the prequels any day, and I agree about your simple vs complex fight scenes and all that stuff. I think my point still stands.

  8. #111
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't think the originals are terrible.

    I just don't think the film aspects of them are as good as people think they are. Once again, things people bash the prequels for (acting, dialogue) aren't the greatest in the original trilogy either, but those movies get a pass for some reason on them. The originals are superior, I just feel people overrate them due to nostalgia, whether you want to admit it or not (I'm not inside your mind so I can't speak for you).

    I'll take watching the originals over the prequels any day, and I agree about your simple vs complex fight scenes and all that stuff. I think my point still stands.
    The real reason why the originals were better were because they had an original concept, a proper plot, good character development and a unique storyline that was a mix of action-scifi-fantasy happening during the time when the world was fascinated with outerspace. Perfect timing. There were just too many things that were right with the originals and hence the subpar direction, plot holes, silliness were more easily overlooked.

    The prequels tried to employ the same cutesy tactic but it could not work the second time cos too many good movies had come and people were expecting better.

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  10. #112
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    On a semi-related note, Mr. Plinkett pretty much sums up everything that's terrible about the prequels and great about the originals much better (and funnier) than I ever could:

    http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/

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  12. #113
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    By the way, I decided to pop in Serenity tonight and I feel like this movie is basically everything the prequels should have been but weren't. It has great characters and dialogue. It's legitimately funny, but at the same time the action set-pieces have high stakes and are very well done. The world the movie portrays feels real and lived-in. The bad guy is legitimately threatening and, perhaps more importantly, has understandable motives (seriously...try to figure out what Darth Maul and Count Dookoo's motives were in the prequels aside from being generically evil). The fights are well-choreographed without being ridiculous, particularly the end fight between Mal and the operative. And, perhaps most importantly, the film doesn't rely on CG for everything. The sets are real, and the CG is used to enhance the movie rather than to simply throw as much shit into the background as possible like in the prequels.

    All in all, I'd watch Serenity ten times before I would ever re-watch one of the shitty prequels.

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  14. #114
    Rising Star KB's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    By the way, I decided to pop in Serenity tonight and I feel like this movie is basically everything the prequels should have been but weren't. It has great characters and dialogue. It's legitimately funny, but at the same time the action set-pieces have high stakes and are very well done. The world the movie portrays feels real and lived-in. The bad guy is legitimately threatening and, perhaps more importantly, has understandable motives (seriously...try to figure out what Darth Maul and Count Dookoo's motives were in the prequels aside from being generically evil). The fights are well-choreographed without being ridiculous, particularly the end fight between Mal and the operative. And, perhaps most importantly, the film doesn't rely on CG for everything. The sets are real, and the CG is used to enhance the movie rather than to simply throw as much shit into the background as possible like in the prequels.

    All in all, I'd watch Serenity ten times before I would ever re-watch one of the shitty prequels.
    *Sigh*

    If only people realized how good the show was before Fox took it off the air.

    Also Fox showing the episodes in the correct order would have probably helped too

  15. #115
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by KB View Post
    *Sigh*

    If only people realized how good the show was before Fox took it off the air.
    I know. Such a fantastic show, and the movie was somehow even better.

    "You wanna run this ship?"
    "Yes."
    "Well...you can't."

    On the plus side, maybe now that Joss Whedon is a famous Hollywood director he'll throw us a bone with a Serenity sequel. He probably has the sway to get it done at this point, and I'm sure all of the actors whose characters weren't killed off would welcome coming back.

  16. #116
    Its Happening!!!! Shakalu M.D.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't think the originals are terrible.

    I just don't think the film aspects of them are as good as people think they are. Once again, things people bash the prequels for (acting, dialogue) aren't the greatest in the original trilogy either, but those movies get a pass for some reason on them. The originals are superior, I just feel people overrate them due to nostalgia, whether you want to admit it or not (I'm not inside your mind so I can't speak for you).

    I'll take watching the originals over the prequels any day, and I agree about your simple vs complex fight scenes and all that stuff. I think my point still stands.
    It seems to me that you're judging based on very simple things like quality of fight choreography. There's a lot more to it than that. There were some good fights in the prequels, but the acting, plots, and dialogue were bad. It's really as simple as that. The acting and dialogue was 1000x better in the originals than the new ones.
    Ass pennies

  17. #117
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Coc Rhakalu View Post
    It seems to me that you're judging based on very simple things like quality of fight choreography. There's a lot more to it than that. There were some good fights in the prequels, but the acting, plots, and dialogue were bad. It's really as simple as that. The acting and dialogue was 1000x better in the originals than the new ones.
    Totally disagree on the last point. It was better, but it still had big time weaknesses and very corny moments.

    No idea how the plot was bad. It was about the Sith rising up again and wiping out the Jedi, a plot everybody was absolutely yearning to see. I guess some of the details like the shitty ass Gungans/Jar Jar and Trade Federation stuff was retarded as hell but the overall plot of Episode 3 was fine with me.

    Like I said, I don't really like Star Wars enough to go deep into a big time debate over it. My point is the originals are way better but a lot of the faults people bash the prequels for are at least somewhat present in the original trilogy, and that Episode 3 IMO really was a decent Star Wars film despite some of its shortcomings. It certainly could have used someone who knew how to write dialogue, that's for sure. While Ep 1 and 2 were not salvageable without scrapping them completely, Episode 3 was way better.

    At any rate, Star Wars is not a good enough story for me to spend a lot of time arguing about it.
    Last edited by Chris; 12-12-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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  18. #118
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Totally disagree on the last point. It was better, but it still had big time weaknesses and very corny moments.

    No idea how the plot was bad. It was about the Sith rising up again and wiping out the Jedi, a plot everybody was absolutely yearning to see. I guess some of the details like the shitty ass Gungans/Jar Jar and Trade Federation stuff was retarded as hell but the overall plot of Episode 3 was fine with me.

    Like I said, I don't really like Star Wars enough to go deep into a big time debate over it. My point is the originals are way better but a lot of the faults people bash the prequels for are at least somewhat present in the original trilogy, and that Episode 3 IMO really was a decent Star Wars film despite some of its shortcomings. It certainly could have used someone who knew how to write dialogue, that's for sure. While Ep 1 and 2 were not salvageable without scrapping them completely, Episode 3 was way better.

    At any rate, Star Wars is not a good enough story for me to spend a lot of time arguing about it.
    Seriously...watch Plinkett's review of Episode 3. He points out just about every logical flaw and plot hole in the entire movie, and given just how many there are, that's a goddamn impressive feat.

  19. #119
    So we come to it at last Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    I would, but I absolutely can't sit and listen to that guy for more than 30 seconds. I believe him that they had plot holes and logic flaws in them. Are you telling me the original trilogy didn't? It's fucking Star Wars, man.
    The artist formerly known as cmstophe

  20. #120
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I would, but I absolutely can't sit and listen to that guy for more than 30 seconds. I believe him that they had plot holes and logic flaws in them. Are you telling me the original trilogy didn't? It's fucking Star Wars, man.
    Of course there were. There are plot holes in just about every movie ever made, just like main characters tend to have "plot armor" that prevents them from getting shot during firefights. That's movies for you.

    There's a difference, however, between the minor plot holes and dumb ideas (Ewoks, for example) in the original trilogy and the clusterfuck of bad ideas and stupid characters that is the prequel trilogy. Literally nothing that any of the characters do makes any sense at all. Couple that with awful dialogue, an over-reliance on CGI, no real protagonist in any of the three films, certainly no viewpoint protagonist (as in someone who asks the questions for the viewers), poor structure, and a complete inability to comprehend what made the original Star Wars films great and you've got three totally awful movies that succeeded because of the name on the poster rather than the quality of the product.

    See, what made the original trilogy great was that it was a collaborative effort. George Lucas came up with initial idea, but he had a bunch of competent people around him to tell him what an idiot he was. Sure, some of his horrible ideas still slipped through (again, Ewoks), but by and large the people around Lucas made that trilogy what it was. People like Irvin Kershner, Richard Marquand, and Lawrence Kasdan. People who had the sack to stand up to Lucas in order to put out a better quality film.

    That's also the problem with the new trilogy. There was no one around who had the balls to tell Lucas his ideas were stupid. There was no one around to re-write his terrible scripts. There was no one around who understood what made Star Wars great, or at least no one who understood it and could convince George to share their belief.

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