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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    We could always have Waiters as our 6th man coming in for either Shabazz or Irving and have all 3 in when playing small ball. He (Muhammad) seems like he has an MKG type work ethic with better offensive skills. I like Poythress, but I don't know if his ball handeling and if we get either LA or Sactown's pick at 15 or 16, we could get Porter. I really hope we can get multiple lottery picks this season.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    With his size to play the 3 and how he busts his ass off the ball I believe they could be excellent together, actually.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    There are quite a bit of 6-5 to 6-7 players playing the 3 spot. I know automatically we think of the 6-9 LeBron or the 7 foot Kevin Durant.. but guys like Corey Maggette, Richard Jefferson, John Salmons, Ron Artest, Beasley, Shawn Marion, Andre Iguodala, Paul Pierce, Danny Granger etc. all play the 3 spot at that height.

    Shabazz plays more like those guys.. a list of some of the top SFs of the past decade, than a 2 guard.. though I think he can play in stretches there.

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  5. #49
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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    A good question was raised to me when I was talking to someone about Shabazz playing the 3 full time...

    Would you feel comfortable with him guarding the LeBron's, Durant's, Gay's, etc? And that could even be extended to other teams that include players like Paul George, Paul Pierce, Gerald Wallace, Luol Deng, Danillo Gallinari, etc..

    While Shabazz does have the measurements of an average SF and will likely be able to play it part-time, does he have the defensive skill and measurements to play it full time and do it successfully against the league's top SF's? Because in the end, that's what's going to matter most...

    Also, FWIW: Synergy ranks Muhammad as a "poor" defender, ranking in the bottom 13% of the NCAA, giving up 1.067 PPP... We'll see how that plays out through the season but so far that isn't good and doesn't help the case when potentially projecting him to be a SF, especially on this team where Irving and Waiters are already borderline defenders...

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  7. #50
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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    A good question was raised to me when I was talking to someone about Shabazz playing the 3 full time...

    Would you feel comfortable with him guarding the LeBron's, Durant's, Gay's, etc? And that could even be extended to other teams that include players like Paul George, Paul Pierce, Gerald Wallace, Luol Deng, Danillo Gallinari, etc..

    While Shabazz does have the measurements of an average SF and will likely be able to play it part-time, does he have the defensive skill and measurements to play it full time and do it successfully against the league's top SF's? Because in the end, that's what's going to matter most...

    Also, FWIW: Synergy ranks Muhammad as a "poor" defender, ranking in the bottom 13% of the NCAA, giving up 1.067 PPP... We'll see how that plays out through the season but so far that isn't good and doesn't help the case when potentially projecting him to be a SF, especially on this team where Irving and Waiters are already borderline defenders...
    First thing's first. Dion is a great defender for a rookie. He's already one of the top defenders on the team and what could be considered at least a "good" defender by NBA standards. Irving is right now a poor defender, yes although he is improving as of late. He's gone from, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being just God awful, to 10 (LeBron/Dwight/prime Ron Artest or Ben Wallace) a 2 to a 4, just below average. It's a step in the right direction. I'd like to see him be at least average if not a little above average by the season's end although I don't expect him to make a large defensive improvement until next season. He's had too many injuries lately to get any sort of rhythm going in terms of being in great enough shape to give a 100% effort on both ends of the floor.

    Secondly, I am glad that someone is finally admitting that Shabazz at least has average size for a small forward. But anyhow, I'll first refer to your comment about the synergy ranks of Shabazz. I'm not excusing him, but he has been out of shape all season and has just gotten back into shape. I am going to assume that number is going to become better by the season's end especially as he adjusts to playing against bigger/faster players.

    You bring up a good question about how Shabazz can handle the biggest/best guys at the SF position. First, I don't think anyone is going to stop LeBron or Durant from scoring. They're just too consistent and can pretty much drop 30+ in any game of their choosing. They're just too dominant for ANY small forward to slow them down significantly. Those guys are regularly going to draw double teams no matter who is guarding them.

    As for those other guys you mentioned, I think he'll be fine. He's an extremely intelligent scorer, so I don't think he'll be bothered by too many guy's size offensively. As for defense, size matters a lot less on the perimeter than it does in the post. Perimeter players aren't looking to throw their weight around to even nearly the extent that post players are. Also, blocks aren't a big factor on the perimeter even if you are super long. It's just rare to block a jump shot when you are a perimeter player guarding your man. You won't see a lot of perimeter players block their own man's shot a lot. They'll be more likely to block from the weak side. As long as he can get a hand up to affect shots, have the speed and length to deny passes and drives, and play tough defense, I think he'll be fine.

    Sometimes you have to weigh the benefits and costs of things like these. He'll be fine with guarding most guys, and I think he'll excel offensively regardless of whether or not he plays the 3 or the 2. I think that, if he were to be drafted by us, he'd possibly split time between the two positions.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    I fully believe that Shabazz Muhammad is capable of playing small forward in the NBA. Wingspan, ability, talent, and work ethic would allow him to play the SF position. However, I'm not sure his talents are best utilized at the SF position. There is a huge difference between being able to play a position and being a great player at your position.

    I sort of feel that putting Shabazz Muhammad at SF is like putting your most talented pitcher at closer. Does it help you win games? Yes. Are you fully utilizing the talents of that pitcher? No. If we are able to take him and do, it will be interesting to see what the Cavs decide to do with Waiters and Muhammad.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    A good question was raised to me when I was talking to someone about Shabazz playing the 3 full time...

    Would you feel comfortable with him guarding the LeBron's, Durant's, Gay's, etc? And that could even be extended to other teams that include players like Paul George, Paul Pierce, Gerald Wallace, Luol Deng, Danillo Gallinari, etc..
    Who does guard LeBron or Durant? They guarded each other today and both put up monster lines. They're unguardable, and worrying about your three guarding them is totally pointless. If you want to beat the Heat, you shut down everyone but LeBron and Wade. If you want to beat the Thunder, you shut down everyone but Durant and Westbrook. Some guys are just flat out going to get theirs in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    I fully believe that Shabazz Muhammad is capable of playing small forward in the NBA. Wingspan, ability, talent, and work ethic would allow him to play the SF position. However, I'm not sure his talents are best utilized at the SF position. There is a huge difference between being able to play a position and being a great player at your position.

    I sort of feel that putting Shabazz Muhammad at SF is like putting your most talented pitcher at closer. Does it help you win games? Yes. Are you fully utilizing the talents of that pitcher? No. If we are able to take him and do, it will be interesting to see what the Cavs decide to do with Waiters and Muhammad.
    Like I've been saying, I feel that Shabazz would be perfect splitting his minutes between SF and SG if he were on this team. He could eat up all the minutes at the SG position when Dion is either on the bench or playing backup PG when Kyrie is on the bench and play the rest of his minutes at SF. That way, we would need no backup PG or SG because Kyrie, Dion, and Shabazz would cover all of those minutes. Man, what a backcourt combo that would be!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Who does guard LeBron or Durant? They guarded each other today and both put up monster lines. They're unguardable, and worrying about your three guarding them is totally pointless. If you want to beat the Heat, you shut down everyone but LeBron and Wade. If you want to beat the Thunder, you shut down everyone but Durant and Westbrook. Some guys are just flat out going to get theirs in the NBA.
    It's true. How do you stop literally the best athlete of all time in LeBron James? He's 270, as fast as Rose, has a 43" vertical, arguably the strongest player in the NBA, and has great measurables for a SF with a height of 6'9" (grew an inch in 2008 and it's never been changed), 8'10" standing reach, and a 7'+ wingspan. I haven't even gotten to his skills yet. He can post up, shoot, drive, pass, and rebound extremely well. He can literally play all 5 positions well including center due to his skills and strength even if he is a little undersized for that although his weight is well above average for a center (low 250s is average for a center). I don't think any player in the history of the game could say that.

    Then there's Durant. No one is going to stop a perimeter player with a 7'5" wingspan and 9'2" standing reach who has the ball-handling of a guard and elite scoring from all over the floor. He's like a Dirk with better ball-handling who plays on the perimeter. Stupid.
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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    I fully believe that Shabazz Muhammad is capable of playing small forward in the NBA. Wingspan, ability, talent, and work ethic would allow him to play the SF position. However, I'm not sure his talents are best utilized at the SF position. There is a huge difference between being able to play a position and being a great player at your position.

    I sort of feel that putting Shabazz Muhammad at SF is like putting your most talented pitcher at closer. Does it help you win games? Yes. Are you fully utilizing the talents of that pitcher? No. If we are able to take him and do, it will be interesting to see what the Cavs decide to do with Waiters and Muhammad.
    Actually, with Dion and Kyrie having the ability to drive-and-kick paired with Shabazz's borderline deadly outside shot along with how much he moves without the ball, I actually think it's a match made in heaven. Those three functioning together could be a well-oiled machine after having time to gel together, develop as players and having proper coaching. Moreover, Shabazz is pretty tenacious on the glass and finishes well down low so yeah, I think he would be pretty well-utilized there, in my opinion.

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers Guy View Post
    There are quite a bit of 6-5 to 6-7 players playing the 3 spot. I know automatically we think of the 6-9 LeBron or the 7 foot Kevin Durant.. but guys like Corey Maggette, Richard Jefferson, John Salmons, Ron Artest, Beasley, Shawn Marion, Andre Iguodala, Paul Pierce, Danny Granger etc. all play the 3 spot at that height.

    Shabazz plays more like those guys.. a list of some of the top SFs of the past decade, than a 2 guard.. though I think he can play in stretches there.
    Shabazz is unfortunately shorter than every player you mentioned. He would be the only small forward I can think of in the 6'4 ish range sans shoes.

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  17. #56
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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Because we play basketball without shoes.....

    Pretty sure Gee is also 6'6" in shoes. Shabazz has the talent and wing span to play SF. He is what Raptors fans hoped Derozen could have been.
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  19. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfoot5415 View Post
    Because we play basketball without shoes.....

    Pretty sure Gee is also 6'6" in shoes. Shabazz has the talent and wing span to play SF. He is what Raptors fans hoped Derozen could have been.
    We don't play with shoes and then round up. Shoes come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. An inch and a half is a lot to give someone. Gee is over 6'5" in his barefeet, but already a very small three.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Shabazz is unfortunately shorter than every player you mentioned. He would be the only small forward I can think of in the 6'4 ish range sans shoes.

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    What did we learn in class today? The height to the tip of your head doesn't mean anything in terms of helping you play basketball. Standing reach, wingspan, and weight do. Of what consequence is it if his height is 6'4.5" when his standing reach, wingspan, and weight are all fine for a small forward? Your only argument was that it helps him see over defenders better, but that clearly isn't true. What else do you got?

    Hey Ty, I'm just bringing our talk over to here:

    You are claiming that your argument was infallible and now you are telling me that I am conceding your argument? What a convenient way to prove your point. All you did was cherry pick photos and then create a blanket statement that supported your argument. You aren't going to win many science fair projects with that type of scientific methology.

    I just showed an example of d wade listing a more realistic height. You can list him at 6'6" all you want but he will still be the shortest 6'6" guy in the nba, lol. Maybe we can round up again and make him 6'7" while we're at it?

    I did concede that he could play small forward. It just wouldn't be optimal. Can we move this to shabazz thread? I already made a post over there. Just try to put less words into my mouth please.



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    I didn't mean to put words into your mouth, but you essentially called my argument invalid because it was an opinion that can't be scientifically proven. To be honest, that really did nothing to further your argument, nor did it do anything to disprove mine because it provided no specific details as to how my argument is invalid or how your argument was true. I saw that as conceding because I basically felt that you were saying "well . . . you can't prove it, so there!" I apologize if that offended you.

    I'm not saying that I'm infallible, but my first point is undeniable in that he does have average size for a small forward. You can't deny that his standing reach, wingspan, and weight are all just about average for a small forward since I gave cold-hard stats to prove it and the nature of that argument needed nothing more than stats to prove it.

    And how is picking a photo of the largest perimeter defender and arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA cherry picking? If anything, I picked a photo of the hardest player to see over, yet it was clear that any small forward could see over him when he was in his defensive stance--Even Shabazz. NO perimeter player is going to be standing straight up like they're getting measured. They'll have their legs spread apart, knees bent, butt out, and chest forward, which makes them all about a foot shorter than their full height. I'm sorry if you disagree with this and think it's just an opinion, but I don't really think it's up for discussion. It's true that any small forward will be able to see anywhere on the court regardless of who is defending them.

    Sure, the length or size of the small forward that is guarding Shabazz could bother him in terms of getting a shot up, passing the ball, getting around them, or posting them up, but, again, they're not going to deny Shabazz from seeing where he wants to go because the defensive stance just doesn't allow them to stand up that tall.

    And you still don't seem to understand that players' official NBA.com heights are listed with their shoes on. Wade's listed height is a statistical anomaly because he really should be listed at 6'5" since his height with shoes on is 6'4.75". 99% of players' heights are rounded toward the closest inch to their height with shoes.

    It's also hyperbole and a strawman argument to exaggerate something like rounding (like exaggerating rounding 6'5.75" to 6'7") and then call the exaggeration as unfair when the original rounding was a completely legal mathematical rounding of a number. If you took 5th-grade math, you would know that you round up when you hit .5-.9999 or round down when you hit .0001-.4999. It's completely fair to round Shabazz's height to 6'6" when he's 6'5.75" in shoes. Like I said, almost all players' heights are with shoes on and rounded to the nearest inch. If you want to challenge on that, then I'll gladly list more players that follow my way of listing official NBA height than you can list for your method.

    If you want to list Shabazz at 6'5" because of his height without shoes, then you have to list all other players the same way as well. Not all players' listed heights are an inch to an inch and a half less. It's just not fair to compare his height without shoes to all players' heights with shoes. But why are we still talking about height when height is a pretty irrelevant measurement? We need to be talking about wingspan, standing reach, and weight.

    Ty, would you be able to show me instances where Shabazz wouldn't be able to see over his defender? If you're going to stick with at argument, I think this is the best route to take. If you're not going to go this route, then what else have you got?

    And I'm sorry again if I offended you. I can get competitive sometimes when debating people.
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  22. #59
    With the Left hand! TyGuy's Avatar
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    Dwyane wade didn't see it fit to call himself 6 '5" when in actuality he is closer to that height than bazz is to 6'6". So again he would be the shortest 6'6" guy in the nba.

    The 6'7" comment was just a joke because we are going a little over the top boosting a guy an inch and a half.

    I'm on my phone so it limits my ability to post pictures and videos.

    In my opinion standing reach is only more significant when you go to block shots or dunking around the hoop. You still see with your eyes and not your hands and there are many scenarios where a defender will be straight up. Like if you lose your dribble or if a guy is playing you up in your shirt, you see a double team or if a defender closes out on you with a hand in your FACE.

    I keep saying this but for some reason you want to keep arguing. Bazz can play three but he has much better tools to succeed at the two.


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    Last edited by TyGuy; 12-26-2012 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Closer look at: Shabazz Muhammad

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    Dwyane wade didn't see it fit to call himself 6 '5" when in actuality he is closer to that height than bazz is to 6'6". So again he would be the shortest 6'6" guy in the nba.

    I'm on my phone so it limits my ability to post pictures and videos.

    In my opinion standing reach is only more significant when you go to block shots or dunking around the hoop. You still see with your eyes and not your hands and there are many scenarios where a defender will be straight up. Like if you lose your dribble or if a guy is playing you up in your shirt, you see a double team or if a defender closes out on you with a hand in your FACE.

    I keep saying this but for some reason you want to keep arguing. Bazz can play three but he has much better tools to succeed at the two.


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    Better tools like what?

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