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  1. #1
    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Everyone has heard the story and subsequent uproar that was caused by the comments of Bob Costas and article of Jason Whitlock. I'm going to make a case against gun control, but I will not use self-defense or personal liberty. Instead, I'm going to use an argument that, I think, should appeal to liberals, or at least a great deal of them.

    The Drug War. The Drug is routinely criticized by people of all ideologies. It's hated by libertarians, not well liked by liberals, and a lot of conservatives are starting to get on board with the idea that it really hasn't worked. I, personally, hate the drug war. It has cost billions of dollars, led directly to the deaths of countless lives, created a very large criminal underworld, and led to the overpopulation of our prison facilities (also costing untold dollars). And what has it accomplished? Who exactly CANT get drugs if they want them? Everyone with an IQ above 80 could go out, right now, and purchase illegal drugs. It's not very difficult. And this isn't the first time in our history where we've tried something like this.

    Prohibition. Basically everything I just said about The Drug War applied to Prohibition in the early part of the 20th century. It was a massive failure. It helped create and fuel the Mafia, led to the highest murder rates in our country's history, and kept almost no one from actually obtaining alcohol. It's hard to find anyone who would argue that Prohibition was either successful in its goals or was even a good idea to begin with.

    You see, when the government tries to outlaw an activity that is 1)popular 2)easily accessible and 3)very profitable, it's largely going to fail.

    Which brings me to gun control. It's fascinating how many people will argue against The Drug War, citing it's numerous failures, and will then turn around and argue for gun control and, basically, abolition of the Second Amendment. Exactly what do you think will happen that is any different than the two examples cited above? Do you believe the outlawing of guns won't create a similar criminal syndicate to that of the Mafia and the Mexican Drug Cartels? Of course it will. It will be far to profitable to not do such a thing. Do you think people will be prevented from actually obtaining guns when they want them? Of course they won't. Again, if you can't do it with drugs and/or alcohol, what exactly makes you think you will be successful with guns?

    Now, when the government starts collecting all of the guns, who exactly do you think will turn them in? The Criminals who use the weapons to protect their enterprises? Of course not. If a law telling them they can't sell drugs doesn't prevent them from selling drugs, why in the world would a law telling them they can't own guns prevent them from owning guns? No, only law-abiding citizens will, of their own free-will, turn their guns in.

    So, I ask, if the government were to ban guns, what would that ultimately look like? Well, like The Drug War today or prohibition of yesterday. Those who want to obtain guns will have no problem in doing so. Those who use guns for harmful purposes will continue to do so. As a bonus, the federal government will now have to be spending a boat-load of resources not only fighting the drug war, but now fighting the gun war. Also, our already over-crowded prisons will become even more crowded. And a whole new slew of deaths will come from people illegally running guns and getting in gang wars over said gun running.

    Finally, the argument is made that at the very least, it will help prevent the accidental shootings and the shooting of the type that occurred in the Trayvon Martin case. Zimmerman probably wouldn't own a gun if the law said he wasn't allowed. Therefore, he would not have shot Martin and Martin would be alive (let's forget, for a moment, that Zimmerman might well not). I'll concede the point. But I ask, which is more dangerous/leads to more deaths, these type of shootings, or drunk driving? You see, if the case is being made that we should outlaw something because, at least, it will stop people who normally obey the law from acting foolishly, then should we not, yet again, prohibit the sale/distribution/etc. of alcohol? Because drunk driving certainly kills more people than those killed in accidental homicides/Zimmerman type cases. Right? And when put like that, the answer becomes obvious. No, we should not outlaw guns. Because we did that once, and we saw the consequences. What lives were potentially saved from prohibition, many, many more were lost (along with dollars) due to the prohibition itself. It wasn't worth it then, and it isn't worth it now.

    If you ban guns, you will be creating yet another prohibition/drug war scenario. There is no upside here.
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Jovan would have done something to her if he had a gun or not. Without the gun he might have just beat her up and maybe she would still be alive, he also could just have stabbed her and killed her.

    I support gun ownership fully for the responsible gun owner. I don't know what to do about all the illegal guns on the streets, you're not going to get them all. It's just not possible.

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    Veteran Soar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    At this point a gun ban is nearly impossible. There are simply way too many guns already out there to effectively "ban" them now. The issue shouldn't be about banning guns. It should be about preventing them from getting into the wrong hands. I know plenty of responsible gun owners. My uncle, a former Marine, owns numerous guns and goes to the range to shoot some of them. Growing up in rural Ohio, interaction with hunters is common. You can't punish all gun owners because a there is a minority of gun abusers. All all Muslims terrorists? No. Are all gun owners bad? No.

    The biggest issue in my opinion is that people now feel justified in taking their anger out by shooting people. It is a cultural problem. Mental illness has always existed and guns have always been accessible. There is another cause. I blame technology, video games, and movies. Movies and video games have made shooting more realistic. When young kids are shooting people within a virtual world it subconsciously numbs them to violence. The games today aren't the Mario and Donkey Kong I grew up with. I remember my mom thinking Donkey Kong was violent when she first saw me play it one Christmas. The thought seems absurd when one compares it to Call of Duty etc.

    Also, kids are living within two separate realities today. There is the physical world and the virtual world through texting, Facebook, chatrooms. It is easy to create an alternative reality. Initially one can see this as a positive because it allows the youth of today to "express themselves." However, cyber bullying and a lack of genuine connections can lead to immense dissatisfaction and loneliness. Does anyone really feel connected to another person through texting? This is a problem. This leads to sadness and anger and can easily lead to violence. If you interact with others in person consistently, you don't think about shooting them because they seem real. They have emotions, families, friends, goals etc. When you only interact with people virtually other forms of communication and understanding are lost and people seem less real. This makes it easier to commit acts of violence.
    Last edited by Soar; 12-04-2012 at 09:39 PM.

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    formerly LJ4MVP KI4MVP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    If you ban guns, you will be creating yet another prohibition/drug war scenario. There is no upside here
    The guns were the problem with prohibition/drug war.

    And I don't get the drunk driving argument. Drinking isn't the problem. Drinking and driving is the problem. Which is why society makes it illegal. If anything, we are too tolerant with DUIs. There really is no excuse. If you can afford to go out and get drunk, you can afford a taxi ride.

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by KI4MVP View Post
    The guns were the problem with prohibition/drug war.

    And I don't get the drunk driving argument. Drinking isn't the problem. Drinking and driving is the problem. Which is why society makes it illegal. If anything, we are too tolerant with DUIs. There really is no excuse. If you can afford to go out and get drunk, you can afford a taxi ride.
    guns dont kill people. people kill people.

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pick6 View Post
    guns dont kill people. people kill people.
    people with guns do it far more efficiently, and at far greater distances, than people without guns.

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    Hall of Famer Walter White's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Sweet mother, this thread could get ugly.

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    Hall of Famer Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by KI4MVP View Post
    The guns were the problem with prohibition/drug war.

    And I don't get the drunk driving argument. Drinking isn't the problem. Drinking and driving is the problem. Which is why society makes it illegal. If anything, we are too tolerant with DUIs. There really is no excuse. If you can afford to go out and get drunk, you can afford a taxi ride.
    K. Let's try this again.

    If the government couldn't successfully take away the alcohol or the drugs from the criminals, what exactly makes you think they can take away the guns from them?

    Now, you next say " Drinking isn't the problem. Drinking and driving is the problem." Well, if that is your attitude then guns aren't the problem, people using the guns in an illegal manner is the problem. Right? How tolerant is society of that, btw? Not very.

    But that wasn't my point. My point when I mentioned drinking and driving was to counter the eventual argument that would go something like this. "No, the criminals will not give up their weapons, BUT, if all that happens is for law-abiding citizens to give up their weapons, then at the very least there will be less accidental homicides and that is worth it." My response to that argument is the one above. If that's the case, and if you think removing guns altogether to stop the accidental homicides (and I included the type of homicides that occurred in the Zimmerman case) is worth it, then why not remove alcohol, yet again, to stop all of accidental deaths that occur from its use? Which then brings us back around to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter what the purpose, outlawing either is going to create a far bigger disaster and a far greater death toll than just allowing them to exist.

    EDIT: And you said that guns were/are the problem with prohibition and the drug war. As if there is a time machine that can take us back to the days before guns? Sort of like if we removed guns from the equation, then we could remove drugs too? But please explain to me how you get around to removing the guns from the equation? They exist. We know they exist. Those who wish to make a buck know they exist. If the government shuts down gun manufactures and sellers, someone else will pop up, take their place, and just do it illegally. There is no going back in time to undo what has been done. Whatever you think is the problem, guns exist. There is a very large market for guns. Criminals will ALWAYS have a great need for them. If the government outlaws the manufacture and sale of them, someone will do it anyway. In fact, a great many someones will do it anyway.
    Last edited by Rich; 12-05-2012 at 04:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. MacPhisto View Post
    I still hold that Kevin Love is a cancer. This team will win 50 without him, it will win 45 with him.

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    Gold Star Member Notorious's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Isn't it amazing in this day and age, that there are still clueless people out there who think making something illegal will stop those using it illegally from doing so.

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    I think that illegalization of guns is a moot point. Not gonna happen.

    Probably better off debating the type of restrictions that should be placed on them, and there should certainly be some.

    But if someone has the drive and desire to commit murder or mass murder, no amount of control is going to stop them from getting the weapons needed to do it.
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
    Isn't it amazing in this day and age, that there are still clueless people out there who think making something illegal will stop those using it illegally from doing so.
    The rate of private gun ownership per 100 people
    United States 88.82
    United Kingdom is 6.72

    The annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population
    United States 2.98
    United Kingdom 0.03

    the non firearm murder rate is roughly the same between the two countries

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    I'd rather legalize pot than make guns illegal. Guns are very dangerous in the hands of the wrong person. Thing is, the right people should be prepared for those wrong people. It is a crappy situation, but it is a part of the American culture.

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    The Bushido doctrine Homer Safari's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by KI4MVP View Post
    The rate of private gun ownership per 100 people
    United States 88.82
    United Kingdom is 6.72

    The annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population
    United States 2.98
    United Kingdom 0.03

    the non firearm murder rate is roughly the same between the two countries
    The rate of private gun ownership per 100 people
    United States 88.82
    United Kingdom is 6.72
    Canada 23.8
    Switzerland 45.7
    Mexico is 15.02
    The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population
    United States 4.96
    United Kingdom 1.2
    Canada 1.8
    Switzerland 0.70
    Mexico 21.5
    The annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population
    United States 2.98
    United Kingdom 0.03
    Canada 0.50
    Switzerland 0.52
    Mexico 10.0

    probably should include the full list.

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Where is this 88.82 number coming from?

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    Default Re: Jovan Belcher and Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Tornicade View Post
    The rate of private gun ownership per 100 people
    United States 88.82
    United Kingdom is 6.72
    Canada 23.8
    Switzerland 45.7
    Mexico is 15.02
    The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population
    United States 4.96
    United Kingdom 1.2
    Canada 1.8
    Switzerland 0.70
    Mexico 21.5
    The annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population
    United States 2.98
    United Kingdom 0.03
    Canada 0.50
    Switzerland 0.52
    Mexico 10.0

    probably should include the full list.
    how is that the full list? There are more than 5 countries in the world. I used the one most like the US other than the gun laws.

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