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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    Irving doesn't have recurring injuries, so he isn't "injury prone." I'm not sure what statistics you are referring to, but every statistical analysis on injuries I'm familiar with only deal with recurring injuries. A finger injury isn't correlated to a future shoulder injury, for instance.
    We've been over this far too much already in regards to Anderson, but if someone keeps breaking bones ... maybe they're just not built to withstand a lot of stress? Andy, Boobie, and Kyrie all seem to break down a lot. In this case, the correlation (if there was one) would be to the individual. Clearly bone structure and muscle structure vary from individual to individual. Do you think Kyrie will volunteer to have his "bone mineral density" measured to satiate our curiosity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    The biggest issue Irving faces is how hard he plays, and how hard he drives to the basket. He's Wade-like in his desire to forfeit his body for a basket.
    Kyrie is pretty amazing at avoiding contact, and it seems like he doesn't dunk or sky as much as he might perhaps to protect himself. Wade was always skying high, drawing contact, and crashing to the floor.

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  3. #47
    Keeping the Faith Stark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Cavs are still the last team to have done anything of interest around here when they made the playoff runs a few years ago. Besides that, Tribe made the playoffs in '07, and the Browns still really haven't done jack since they've come back.

    It looks like it may all be changing though. The Browns are starting to not suck. Baseball is one of those sports where the records seem to fluctuate every year, and with the Tribe being "active" in the off-season, we could always push for contention in the shitty AL Central.

    The Cavs are on their way as well. Just have to keep making good decisions and avoid the injury bug.

    I actually like the Cavs more since LeBron left. Sure, the playoff runs and all of that were cool, but the team was pretty much the Cleveland LeBrons or whatever you want to call it. I feel like they can establish a true identity over the next 5-8 years and be a legitimate contender by 2015 if everything goes according to plan.

  4. #48
    Leaping strong buildings!
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Long story short, in terms of scariness, knee injuries>>>other injuries. Knees probably end more careers (and generally cause a greater amount of lost production) than all other injuries combined. As far as I know, we have 30 healthy knees on the roster...and there aren't many teams that can say that.

  5. #49
    formerly LJ4MVP KI4MVP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by sammyvine View Post
    people need to stop comparing with OKC. They drafted Durant, Westbrook, Harden, & Ibaka. You can say they were lucky to get Durant as Oden was seen as the definite number 1 pick at the time, but you have to say the Westbrook and Ibaka picks were smart. Everybody thought Westbrook would be a bust and today he is probably a top 10 player in the league. Sam Presti sure knows how to run a team.

    With the Cavs they only have Irving who looks like a star. Apart from that theres no Wetsbrook, and no Ibaka.
    TBF to the cavs the drafts that they have had high picks hasnt been deep but the Waiters pick was awful. No way was that guy a number 4 pick.
    I think you would have been much better with Andre Drummond or even Harison Barnes. Those two both have higher ceilings than Waiters.

    Waiters ceiling is a nba player level. Drummond and Barnes can be all stars
    Aren't you doing with Waiters what you claim people did to Westbrook? Through 17 games into their career

    Wastbrook: 12.3 points, 4.1 assists, 3.2 rebounds
    Waiters: 15.2 points, 3.4 assists, 2.3 rebounds

    Westbrook rookie year: eFG% .417, WS/48 .035 (I didn't calculate these through 17 games)
    Waiters: eFG% .428, WS/48 .033

    I don't really have any problems with the players we took, but we could do better at giving them NBA caliber teammates.

  6. #50
    Formerly known as Talm MalTalm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    We've been over this far too much already in regards to Anderson, but if someone keeps breaking bones ... maybe they're just not built to withstand a lot of stress? Andy, Boobie, and Kyrie all seem to break down a lot. In this case, the correlation (if there was one) would be to the individual. Clearly bone structure and muscle structure vary from individual to individual. Do you think Kyrie will volunteer to have his "bone mineral density" measured to satiate our curiosity?



    Kyrie is pretty amazing at avoiding contact, and it seems like he doesn't dunk or sky as much as he might perhaps to protect himself. Wade was always skying high, drawing contact, and crashing to the floor.
    I'm just not convinced we can say 5 injuries in a short period of time isn't an outlier. There would be more to fear if he had a shoulder, knee or ankle issue. But he seems to recover, and hasn't had recurring issues thusfar. Sometimes an outlier is an outlier. It's unfortunate we're seeing it at the beginning of his career. I can't find the article, but I know some great analysis was done on this subject once. It determined, in the case of varied injuries, a player's position and style of play determined injury and career length, but past injuries did not predict future injuries. This became especially obvious as players changed positions throughout their careers.

    Now, Kyrie is a PG, and he'll always need to be a PG. So if the injuries aren't an outlier (and to be fair, some of these are freak injuries, like bumping knees with Wade), then Kyrie would likely need to change his style of play. Personally, I'm not so certain that guys without recurring injuries are ever really "injury prone", they may just be victims of statistical variations. But that's a wholly different discussion. I'm very skeptical of using Kyrie's recent injury issues to forecast his career though. It seems VERY premature.
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  7. #51
    #howu Noonan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Try to look at the injuries as a blessing instead of a recipe for irrelevancy. None of the injuries are serious and this was never going to be a good season. Instead of winning around 27-32 games the Cavs will probably win around 20-25 games and have more ping pong balls to show for it. Hopefully both individually and as a team they can begin to show more signs of growth by February/March.

    Next season is the year. If they don't make a jump to the playofs then the rebuild is not on schedule.

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  9. #52
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    I'm just not convinced we can say 5 injuries in a short period of time isn't an outlier. There would be more to fear if he had a shoulder, knee or ankle issue. But he seems to recover, and hasn't had recurring issues thusfar. Sometimes an outlier is an outlier. It's unfortunate we're seeing it at the beginning of his career. I can't find the article, but I know some great analysis was done on this subject once. It determined, in the case of varied injuries, a player's position and style of play determined injury and career length, but past injuries did not predict future injuries. This became especially obvious as players changed positions throughout their careers.

    Now, Kyrie is a PG, and he'll always need to be a PG. So if the injuries aren't an outlier (and to be fair, some of these are freak injuries, like bumping knees with Wade), then Kyrie would likely need to change his style of play. Personally, I'm not so certain that guys without recurring injuries are ever really "injury prone", they may just be victims of statistical variations. But that's a wholly different discussion. I'm very skeptical of using Kyrie's recent injury issues to forecast his career though. It seems VERY premature.
    I hope you're right, but Grady Sizemore had a shitload of different injuries that derailed an otherwise promising career. I'm not sure you could find one person who wouldn't agree he is injury prone, even though many of his injuries were different.

  10. #53
    IT'S TRIBE TIME NOW!!! Pyro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    You can't compare attendance between the three sports in this town, because all three have different attendance maximums. Furthermore, TV ratings for the Indians are up, while ratings for the Cavs are down.

  11. #54
    Administrator MoFlo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by beefstew View Post
    Strongly disagree with that, Northeast Ohio was Cavaliers crazy during the LeBron Era. Nobody gave a damn about any other Cleveland team then but the die hards.
    That's kind of his point and he even added:

    The Cavaliers have always had to win to get a buzz here
    Of course whichever team is closest to getting a ring is going to get the most recognition around here, that goes without saying.

    And I also disagree.. 2007 was a very good year for Cleveland sports imparticular. With the Browns being watchable for the 1st time in years & the Tribe sparking all kinds of interest in their ALCS bid, the Cavs were hardly the only team generating buzz in the LeBron era and it was far from nobody giving a damn about the Browns & Tribe.
    Last edited by MoFlo; 12-10-2012 at 04:36 PM.

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  13. #55
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    I'm just not convinced we can say 5 injuries in a short period of time isn't an outlier.
    Could be, but without actual scientific evidence (such as a bone density measurement) any situation can be dismissed by the ridiculously small sample size.

    I just don't think statistical analysis is appropriate.

    Either he has a higher chance of injury than other players (due to whatever specific factors that may effect him) or he doesn't. Heck, for all we know he has an undiagnosed bone disease. *shrugs*

  14. #56
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noonan View Post
    Try to look at the injuries as a blessing instead of a recipe for irrelevancy.
    I'm not feeling blessed.

    We were losing just fine WITH Kyrie. What we're losing is the chance for him and the rest of our core to develop as a group.

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  16. #57
    you wot m8? PosterTime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Could be, but without actual scientific evidence (such as a bone density measurement) any situation can be dismissed by the ridiculously small sample size.

    I just don't think statistical analysis is appropriate.

    Either he has a higher chance of injury than other players (due to whatever specific factors that may effect him) or he doesn't. Heck, for all we know he has an undiagnosed bone disease. *shrugs*
    His rookie year "injuries" were a concussion and a bullshit, tank-a-licious, shoulder injury that kept him out WAY longer than necessary.

    He broke his hand by pimp-smacking a cement wall that wasn't as padded as he thought.

    He then broke a finger by playing basketball.

    STOP WITH THE INJURY PRONE BULLSHIT.

    In an important season, he plays through the finger injury and he hardly misses time with the shoulder injury.

    Our tank is magnifying his injuries and extending them.

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  18. #58
    ^ kind of a big deal! cavsfan1985's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmknJoe7 View Post
    I tend to agree with the sentiment here. People were packing the stadium for years when the Browns came back. This was, and still is in many ways, a Browns town. But, people stopped belieiving in ownership. Randy was more interested in soccer than he was his Dad's football team. And people started resenting what they saw as absentee ownership...the results led to what is now a half full stadium.

    People resent the Dolan group, as well. They half ass everything. We want a real investing of the on field product, yet what we get is a FO that seemingly has daily think tanks on what new and exciting promotion will be bring the faithful back. Doesn't work that way. Invest that time in learning how to draft properly and dollar hot dog nights won't be your biggest pull...your players will. Noone expects them to spend with the Yanks, but they could at least draft like they have a clue. Without good drafting, this team is bound for the scrap heap, minus a fluke year or two with a bunch of overachievers giving false hope.

    People believe in Dan Gilbert. He has already made himself a significant part of the town. The plan, as diagramed, at least has some teeth. Now, can CG pull it off? I dunno. But, I do know he has the advantage of a salary cap. He has the ability to go over the cap, with an owner who will spend when he is told to. The tribe's brass does not have those advantages. So, there's very few fans who will blame DG for any of this. So, in the end, at this point of the build, I think DG still has a lot of faith with the fanbase....and deservedly so.
    I agree, I think a lot of people will come back once we start to win. Just basketball is not one of those sports, where fans follow them when they are bad. In football, a bad team can still be watchable. In basketball, not so much.

  19. #59
    Admittedly Pompous Randolphkeys's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    It's one thing to conceptualize the Cavaliers plan this season, and it is entirely different to experience it. At some point this summer, it became clear the Cavs weren't going to surrender any cap flexibility past this season. On a team lacking more than two players in the prime of their careers, it sent a clear message that the front office wanted more talent and potential than wins. Look at the Knicks: they have a bunch of old but experienced geezers they signed short-term... and they might be one of the top ten teams for the first time in years. Look at Golden State: they tanked for one year, and made a grand push in free agency this year. They could be a top 10 team as well.

    So it is tough to stomach this long rebuild. Most franchises don't have the discipline. I think it is completely fair for fans to begin to question the time table this front office has expected us to acquiesce.
    “He (Dellavedova) was doin' too much.” ~Paul George, January 5th

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  21. #60
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    Default Re: Are the Cavs in danger of becoming irrelevant in this town?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigMar Lion View Post
    Why? That would make us irrelevant in this town for sure.
    Others have said it better than I could, but I like having guys I can count on. I think it is really tough for a team to win when you can't count on players, especially your best player, to play the majority of the games each year.

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