View Poll Results: Grade the trade...

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  • A

    62 66.67%
  • B

    24 25.81%
  • C

    4 4.30%
  • D

    1 1.08%
  • F

    2 2.15%
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  1. #76
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Coc Rhakalu View Post
    I know next to nothing about Bauer, what's his potential look like? Number 1? Number 2? Ace? I know he didn't do great last season, but he was 21 so I don't really care. Seems to me we got good return on a guy who would have been gone at the end of the season anyway.

    Also what's weird about how he prepares?
    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...81393&c_id=mlb
    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...62767&c_id=mlb

  2. #77
    Hall of Famer AZ_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Coc Rhakalu View Post
    I know next to nothing about Bauer, what's his potential look like? Number 1? Number 2? Ace? I know he didn't do great last season, but he was 21 so I don't really care. Seems to me we got good return on a guy who would have been gone at the end of the season anyway.

    Also what's weird about how he prepares?
    Potential?

    Hall of Fame stuff...
    Manziel's reps also insist it's a hoax -- and he's never made a penis video on "It's a Small World" or any other Disney ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by CavsFanLA View Post
    a skill that probably fits well in the world of PR where you want to listen tothe opinion of someone who thinks they know more than you

  3. #78
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by b00bie View Post
    Potential?

    Hall of Fame stuff...
    You can cut the sarcasm out boobie, or wait, maybe you are being serious... Time will tell


    It's basketball time at the Q! -Bring back Joe Tait

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAL DeAL View Post
    You can cut the sarcasm out boobie, or wait, maybe you are being serious... Time will tell
    Stuff wise, he has Hall of Fame potential.

    Few people have what he has, whether he can stay healthy and control that stuff remains to be seen and will be the deciding factor in realizing that potential.

    He is the best pitching prospect Cleveland has had in my lifetime. Better than CC Sabathia, Drew Pomeranz and all the rest of them.

    But careers are not made on potential.
    Manziel's reps also insist it's a hoax -- and he's never made a penis video on "It's a Small World" or any other Disney ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by CavsFanLA View Post
    a skill that probably fits well in the world of PR where you want to listen tothe opinion of someone who thinks they know more than you

  5. #80
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Indians Bet on Trevor Bauer

    by Dave Cameron - December 12, 2012

    This post isn’t so much a trade analysis of last night’s three team trade between the Reds, Indians, and Diamondbacks, as that post wouldn’t be that interesting – the Indians got a ridiculously great value for one year of Shin-Soo Choo, the Reds turned a prospect they didn’t need into one year of a nice outfielder, and the Diamondbacks turned a pitcher they didn’t want into a guy they hope can be their shortstop of the future. For the Reds, this could be a good move if they can deal with the defensive deficiencies in center until Billy Hamilton is ready. For the D’Backs, they can finally stop trying to sell low on Justin Upton, so even if this trade in particular isn’t a great one, it has a nice side benefit at least. And, for the Indians, they turned one year of Shin-Soo Choo into six years of Trevor Bauer, which looks to be nothing short of a heist.

    Last year, both Marc Hulet and Baseball America rated Bauer the #9 prospect in baseball, at that was before he went out and posted a 2.41 ERA over 130 innings between Double-A and Triple-A, striking out 30% of the batters he faced along the way. Bauer’s almost certainly going to be ranked among the top 10 prospects in the game again this coming year. It is extremely rare for a team to turn a rent-a-player into a top ten prospect, especially when that rental is more of a nice player than any kind of star. The Indians got more for one year of Choo than the Twins did for three years of Denard Span. Cleveland fans should be thrilled with this return.

    But, at the same time, they should recognize that it might take Bauer a little while to live up to the hype.

    Yes, Bauer’s exceedingly young, and his ability to rack up strikeouts in the minors is a strong positive sign for his future. But, the list of similar pitchers who got to the big leagues at age 21 despite problems with their command show that this is an issue that is not always easily remedied. Since 2002, 23 pitchers have gotten to the big leagues as a 21-year-old rookie starter and walked at least 10% of the batters they faced during their initial exposure to Major League hitters. Some of those 23 guys were soft-tossing lefties who got to the show quickly because of their polish, and aren’t particularly great comparisons for Bauer. But, there are some pitchers with similar pedigrees who got to the big leagues at 21 despite command problems in the same way that Bauer did. Among those on the list:

    Chad Billingsley, 14.4% BB%
    Homer Bailey, 13.7% BB%
    Edwin Jackson, 13.6% BB%
    Edinson Volquez, 12.5% BB%
    Scott Kazmir, 12.2% BB%
    Rich Harden, 12.1% BB%
    Scott Olsen, 11.8% BB%
    Mat Latos, 10.9% BB%
    Matt Cain, 10.7% BB%

    Bauer is hardly the first young pitcher to get to the big leagues based on his stuff and struggle to throw strikes. And, of course, there’s some pretty good pitchers on that list. If Bauer turns into Cain or Latos, the Indians will be doing backflips, and this will go down as one of the best trades in franchise history. But it’s also worth noting that, in general, these guys didn’t figure it out very quickly.

    Bailey was worse at 22 than he was at 21, then was still pretty bad at 23. His peripherals finally started going the right way at age 24, but he just posted his first strong season in terms of results at age 26. For his career, he’s thrown 644 innings and has an ERA-/FIP-/xFIP- of 109/102/102.

    Same story with Jackson. Replacement level again at 22, still pretty bad at 23/24, then finally had his breakthrough at age 25. He’s been an effective pitcher for the last four years, but he took a long time to develop into a guy who threw enough strikes to make his stuff work.

    Volquez is even more of a cautionary tale. Like Bailey and Jackson, he didn’t really take a leap forward until age 24, and in his case, that leap wasn’t sustained. Tommy John surgery may have played a part in his regression, but Volquez has never figured out how to throw strikes consistently, so even with his premium stuff, he’s hung around the league as a below average pitcher.

    Kazmir, Olson, and Harden were good in spite of their command issues early, then ran into arm problems that derailed their stuff and their careers. For a guy with significant command issues, velocity loss can be a huge problem, and push them out of the big leagues entirely. It’s one thing to adjust your repertoire when you’re around the zone, but if you lose your stuff and you don’t throw strikes, there’s not much left to get big league hitters out with.

    Based on the published reports, it seems like Arizona was willing to sell low on Bauer mostly because of his personality and his unwillingness to adapt his style of pitching to their preferred development plan. However, there’s also some reasons to be skeptical of the idea that Bauer is ready to step in and contribute in the big leagues in 2013, and another year of walking the world would probably have lowered his trade value over the next 12 months. While this trade will likely be referred to as selling low on a top prospect, it is quite possible that Bauer’s value is going to be lower a year from now than it is at this moment.

    Of course, there’s also a pretty good chance that Bauer will eventually figure out how to throw more strikes, and turning into a Homer Bailey, Edwin Jackson, or Chad Billingsley in the long term would still make this a great trade for an Indians team that has time to wait for him to develop. But, we should at least note that pitchers with these kinds of early career skillsets don’t always figure out how to throw strikes, and they often need a few more years of struggles before they make the necessary adjustments. It’s a risk worth taking for the Indians, but for Arizona, the decision to trade Bauer away isn’t totally unjustified.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...-trevor-bauer/
    Manziel's reps also insist it's a hoax -- and he's never made a penis video on "It's a Small World" or any other Disney ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by CavsFanLA View Post
    a skill that probably fits well in the world of PR where you want to listen tothe opinion of someone who thinks they know more than you

  6. #81
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Why would someone trade a pitcher with legit hall of fame potential for Didi Gregorious?

  7. #82
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by RealKingofCleve View Post
    Why would someone trade a pitcher with legit hall of fame potential for Didi Gregorious?
    Concerns about his mechanics and control.
    Last edited by MoFlo; 12-14-2012 at 07:45 AM.
    Manziel's reps also insist it's a hoax -- and he's never made a penis video on "It's a Small World" or any other Disney ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by CavsFanLA View Post
    a skill that probably fits well in the world of PR where you want to listen tothe opinion of someone who thinks they know more than you

  8. #83
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    I don't get how anyone can view his warmup routine as a bad thing.

    He obviously cares insanely about his craft and is passionate about what he does. That can really only translate into success, one way or another, especially if he is in the right situation. Many times, talented prospects flame out due to lack of desire and the like. Trevor Bauer has the exact opposite "problem".

  9. #84
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Amen... This will also pull fans to the park! I used to love the players with different routines. This Is he kind Of pitcher that becomes an ace and at worse eh... Lets hope for the best, I think we are also forgetting we got some good bull pen help here also. I love this trade for the fact It gave us three to four impact players for a guy who wanted to leave. So no matter what It was a steal on our end If even one player pans out long term and please be bauer!
    #WeAllFromCleveland

  10. #85
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by RealKingofCleve View Post
    How much were you bullied throughout your life that you feel the need to take out your frustrations on an internet message board? Nothing you say is ever funny, just mean-spirited and your life must be pretty pathetic for you to act this way on the internet.
    I know you would love to argue with him, but I have learned he knows what he is talking about most of the time. He may not put it in the best words, but he is trying to explain his point.

    Potential is something seen different by people. Potential is like when you are in high school and there is a chick who all your friends think is "ok", but you think she will be really hot (has potential). You date her, and a year later, bam she is a dime.

    Yeah, like that.
    Last edited by AMC; 12-14-2012 at 03:25 AM.

  11. #86
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    I know you would love to argue with him, but I have learned he knows what he is talking about most of the time. He may not put it in the best words, but he is trying to explain his point.

    Potential is something seen different by people. Potential is like when you are in high school and there is a chick who all your friends think is "ok", but you think she will be really hot (has potential). You date her, and a year later, bam she is a dime.

    Yeah, like that.

    The thing about that Is excepting the "person" with potential. Meaning If I have the potential to be the best I can be doing how or what I know to do. Then some people come In and tell me I am wrong for doing what I know how to do best. So I may have the potential to be a great "boyfriend" however It may take that one "women" or team. Put in the right situation where Bauer can be Bauer will help Both the Indians and Himself. In other words we have potential to be Great at what we are good at. Potential Is reached by of course the player However the Influence and teachers play a huge role on making the player to go from average to great. This Is why Francona and Bauer might be the perfect fit. It Is all about the person the player now... We have the staff In place.
    #WeAllFromCleveland

  12. #87
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw


    Seems like a nice realistic and educational article.

    Interestingly enough, he goes out of his way to describe Choo as more of a "nice player than any kind of star." You have to figure that if you're going to call a guy "elite," you'd probably want to describe him as a star as well.

    But alas... Cameron, who appears to have an excellent grip on baseball, doesn't see Choo that way...
    Last edited by The Oi; 12-14-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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  13. #88
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Prove It View Post

    Seems like a nice realistic and educational article.

    Interestingly enough, he goes out of his way to describe Choo as more of a "nice player than any kind of star." You have to figure that if you're going to call a guy "elite," you'd probably want to describe him as a star as well.

    But alas... Cameron, who appears to have an excellent grip on baseball, doesn't see Choo that way...
    Nope, Choo was elite. He was a HOF, just like Bauer...
    OU... OH YEAH!!!!

    9/13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip
    Sanchize and the boys start their reign of dominance tonight...
    Someone has a CHIP on his shoulder (you know who you are)

  14. #89
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by The Optomist View Post
    Nope, Choo was elite. He was a HOF, just like Bauer...

  15. #90
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    Default Re: Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Huber View Post
    OU... OH YEAH!!!!

    9/13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip
    Sanchize and the boys start their reign of dominance tonight...
    Someone has a CHIP on his shoulder (you know who you are)

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