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Thread: gun control

  1. #961
    All for one RonG's Avatar
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    Default Re: gun control

    "Yes they did. Our soldiers swear an oath to our constitution. Not understanding you to expect that, but thats the oath they take."
    This is cherry picking for me... Nobody ever fought so you could have a gun, they fought so you could write your own constitution. My argument still stands : people fighting for something doesn't make it any better. Your army went to Irak as well, that didn't end too well, except Bush did get all the oil he wanted.
    Excuse me for interrupting.

    #1 The Oath I took said to protect the United States of America from enemies foreign and domestic. Domestic is important and should not be forgotten.

    #2 Yea Iraq it was all about the oil, nothing to do with the mass graves, the torture of humans and the atrocities being committed against a group of people who could not defend itself.

    #3 Earlier you came in and expressed your opinions about America and how it wasn't the greatest country. Not sure how you tied that into "gun control" but you made one point no one has it all right, I agree with that, but for you to come here and take a swipe at us is a little absurd. I love this country with every fiber of my soul, I have a pride that burns for my country. Now I am not downing anyone, I just personally believe that where I live is the greatest state in the greatest Union of states in the world. My opinion, I probably wouldn't have expressed it until I saw your asinine post. I am not saying we are perfect, like you said no one has it all right.

    Lets look at gun control in Belgium:

    In Belgium, civilians are not allowed to possess military weapons, automatic firearms, and their ammunition, concealable firearms, silencers, laser sights, and high capacity cartridges.53 54 55

    Regulation of Automatic Assault Weapons
    In Belgium, private possession of fully automatic weapons is prohibited53 54 55

    Regulation of Semiautomatic Assault Weapons
    In Belgium, private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted only with special authorisation56 57 55

    Regulation of Handguns
    In Belgium, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted only with special authorization
    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/belgium

    So with the acceptation for the high capacity cartridges and having to have a permit to have a semi automatic assault rifle it looks like we have pretty much the same laws. Now if you dig further you will see you have a national data base of all the gun owners and what exactly you own. I can't get on board with a national data base, its one of those "freedoms" I don't want to give up so easily.


    In Belgium, only licensed gun owners (for certain arms)58 59 60 54 56 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition That word lawfully is the problem, really its an admissison that they can not prevent unlawful acquiring or sales. They can punish it but can't prevent it, same as here.

    Genuine Reason Required for Firearm License
    Applicants for a gun owner’s license in Belgium are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security61 59 62 63 Kind of trivial

    Minimum Age for Firearm Possession
    The minimum age for gun ownership in Belgium is 18 years64 59 63 Again no real effect here I bought my daughter (13) a 243 rifle to deer hunt but technically I own it so wash.

    Gun Owner Background Checks
    An applicant for a firearm license in Belgium must pass background checks which consider criminal and various other59 62 63 records I agree with this and we do this here

    Reference Required for Firearm License
    In Belgium, third party character references for each gun license applicant are not required6 What you mean my neighbor doesn't have to vouch for me?

    Domestic Violence and Firearms
    Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in Belgium does not stipulate6 that a gun license should be denied or revoked ( hmm I am thinking Belgium might want to change this one)

    Firearm Safety Training
    In Belgium, an understanding of firearm safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practical training course is required59 6 for a firearm license I am not against this at all

    Gun Owner Licensing Period
    In Belgium gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm license every 3 years for permits to carry weapons. General licenses for firearm possession are issued for an undetermined period.65 62 Ok i guess this would catch some people who became felons ect in during the three years they held this

    Limit on Number of Guns
    Licensed firearm owners in Belgium are permitted to possess 1 firearm per authorisation 59 Can not get on board with this one unless you are allowed to have unlimited authorization

    Limit on Quantity, Type of Ammunition
    A licensed firearm owner in Belgium is permitted to possess a limited quantity of rounds of ammunition66 67 I see the point but honestly its irrelevant your just limiting the legal law abiding gun owner, can't agree

    So as you, your country isn't to far off from ours if everything on http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/belgium is correct, I don't see the ban on guns you were referring to. Maybe they are banned in Brussels? I don't know did not look it up.

    Personally I don't ever envisioning me going to a forums in another Country and telling them their country is not the greatest( yea I am a little bitter over that) nor telling them how or what they may or may not be doing wrong. Since you decided to I only thought it was fair we discuss your laws. All of the information from that site has its references on the bottom.

    BTW here is a little article from December 2011 worth reading:




    Gun laws work. Once a law is made to establish control over private guns, criminals obey it. When guns are banned, criminals refrain from getting guns. When there is a process for getting a license, criminals go through the process of getting that license in order to legally own guns, in order to use them in their crimes. When a criminal legally has guns, and when he uses them in a crime, the government finds out about it because a criminal will always obey the law and will keep a good record of his guns and how he has used them.

    Ahem.

    May be not.

    Belgium has one of the toughest laws in Europe for owning guns. So tough, actually, that only 4 out of a hundred private citizens in Belgium are registered to have guns. Which makes Belgium safer than, for example, Texas, where 4 out of 1,000 do not have guns. After all, tougher gun laws make people safer.

    May be not.

    Six people were dead and 123 wounded after a gunman opened fire and threw hand-grenades at a Christmas market in Liege, Belgium. The killer, Nordine Amrani, of North African descent, has been arrested before for illegal possession of firearms, drug dealing, and sexual assault. Many times. In any decent country where justice prevails, he would have been executed by now. But not in Belgium, where criminals enjoy enormous rights. (After all, Brussels is full of them, in the offices of the European Union.)

    The gun laws in Belgium did not stop Amrani from acquiring guns, and even hand-grenades. Criminals, apparently, refuse to abide by the law. Predictable, isn’t it? They don’t call them criminals for nothing.

    What the gun laws succeeded to stop, though, was an adequate reaction from the thousands shoppers at the market. People were running away, and some were being wounded and killed, because there was not a single decent citizen who would draw a gun and shoot Amrani immediately. Amrani was like a wolf among sheep; and the sheep were sheep only because their own government made a law to turn them into sheep. If there was no gun control, there would have been quite a few good watchdogs among the crowd. The wolf would have been stopped before it was too late.

    The 129 victims were victims of the gun laws in Belgium; victims of a mentality that devoid of any realistic assessment of the nature of man, and especially of the nature of criminals. Amrani only took advantage of what has been offered to him for free: the opportunity to indulge in his murderous passions among a crowd of unarmed people. If someone is to be taken to court it is the Belgian government and the Parliament; those that are safely protected by the guns of the police but refuse the same protection to their own citizens. Apparently, many more people will have to die in Europe until reality finally opens the minds Europeans to understand that the only thing that stops an armed criminal is an armed law-abiding citizen.

    Read more: http://godfatherpolitics.com/2620/12...#ixzz2HyLeBvO4
    Whats that mass murder with real gun control in place !

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by RonG View Post
    #2 Yea Iraq it was all about the oil, nothing to do with the mass graves, the torture of humans and the atrocities being committed against a group of people who could not defend itself.
    To be fair, there are dozens of countries that commit as bad or worse atrocities than Iraq and our country couldn't care less. The fact is that our president and his cronies lied to us about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction in order to trick the American populace and Congress into accepting a war there. Whether or not the end game was oil or something else (perhaps George W. Bush setting right his father's failure or getting revenge for the attempt on his life), it's ridiculous to pretend that any part of that war was about saving the poor people of Iraq that we couldn't give less of a shit about today.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    To be fair, there are dozens of countries that commit as bad or worse atrocities than Iraq and our country couldn't care less. The fact is that our president and his cronies lied to us about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction in order to trick the American populace and Congress into accepting a war there. Whether or not the end game was oil or something else (perhaps George W. Bush setting right his father's failure or getting revenge for the attempt on his life), it's ridiculous to pretend that any part of that war was about saving the poor people of Iraq that we couldn't give less of a shit about today.
    At the same time the information we had at the time was that there was WMD's so it was wrong... maybe there was some lying involved I doubt we ever get a clear answer about that.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by RonG View Post
    At the same time the information we had at the time was that there was WMD's so it was wrong... maybe there was some lying involved I doubt we ever get a clear answer about that.
    And where did that information come from? From the people that benefited from us invading Iraq. I encourage you to look into it more deeply. It's incredibly obvious that we were lied to by the people in power.

    And you never really addressed my other point...that invading Iraq had nothing to do with the death and suffering of the people of Iraq. If it did, there are plenty of other countries we should have invaded by now that are as bad or worse than Iraq was under Hussein.

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  9. #965
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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    And where did that information come from? From the people that benefited from us invading Iraq. I encourage you to look into it more deeply. It's incredibly obvious that we were lied to by the people in power.

    And you never really addressed my other point...that invading Iraq had nothing to do with the death and suffering of the people of Iraq. If it did, there are plenty of other countries we should have invaded by now that are as bad or worse than Iraq was under Hussein.
    Jack I am not going to get into an argument about it, wont change your mind. I did not disagree with you in first place, I just stated additional point. I am not here to validate or justify every military movement, I just happened to have served in the Marines during and between the "two" Iraqi wars.

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    Default Re: gun control

    I have to agree with Jack on this one, W Bush clearly lied and went to Irak for the oil, his arguments are dead on...

    And thank you for finding the laws of my country, I didn't know any of that. But since the laws pretty much the same, how come nobody has a gun? I seriously have never met anybody who had a gun at his place, not that I knew of at least.

    And you are right, last year we had a that crazy Amrani who went all CoD on us, it happened in my home town! Fortunately, I wasn't there and none of my family and friends were harmed. The truth is, there are insane people everywhere. Gun control might not have changed anything, but allowing guns wouldn't have either. He was on the main square of the city and there were plenty of people, it took him less than ten minutes to do his damage. gun control doesn't prevent crazy ass people from doing anything. Allowing guns and pretty much worshipping them though, makes it more likely. I can't understand why you would buy you 13 year old daughter a riffle.

    But that article is pretty darn awful anyway. Belgium is totally full of criminals, especially brussels... I have lived here for 5 years, walked everywhere at night, sometimes pretty drunk, and have never had any problem... As for our justice system, I don't believe in death penalty, nor jail, but thats another debate. once again I never said Belgium was perfect, it is far from perfect (though as all of you, I love my country).

    I believe the problem is much deeper than just gun control. We can not keep forbidding everything, put cameras, have police everywhere, guns everywhere, more control, more paper work... I mean what's all this about? We need to change the whole entire system and think about something else, because there is proof everywhere it isn't working : the environment, the economy crumbling, the violent crimes, the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer,... And all we do is keep forbidding and forbidding. The thing is, Europe is just following your steps in that direction. You have been leaders since WWII, so now people are looking up on you guys, and the USA are not setting a good exemple. And as good sheeps, europe still follows... Now, I am pretty happy about Obama, he brings hope after W.Bush and actually tries to chnage some things, he might not amazing, but always better than Romney.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Nobody should be looking to us for anything. Our politicians are completely ineffective and most of them are total idiots. Our political system is a sham and bought and paid for by corporate interests. And our population is rapidly getting dumber by the generation.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    And where did that information come from? From the people that benefited from us invading Iraq. I encourage you to look into it more deeply. It's incredibly obvious that we were lied to by the people in power.

    And you never really addressed my other point...that invading Iraq had nothing to do with the death and suffering of the people of Iraq. If it did, there are plenty of other countries we should have invaded by now that are as bad or worse than Iraq was under Hussein.
    That may be so and in fact I remember reading a rolling stone book about Clinton in 99 or early 2000. In the last chapter was a section on Bush and he all but guaranteed that if elected he would invade Iraq an kill Hussein because he tried to kill his Dad. When we went to war I remembered this and though hmmm....

    But please don't lump our troops into your feelings. I assure you they weren't running around procuring oil fields and worry about oil. There are mass graves there and there was genocide. Hussein and his sons committed atrocities we would never tolerate from anyone here. Whether the intentions from our leaders were flawed or not, the guys who fought this war had only the best of intentions for humanity. They deserve respect for their courage and bravery.

    The ones you should be pissed at is all the Dems and Repubs that knew they'd been had but did nothing. They all went along with and even when no WMD's showed up no one called for investigations or was punished. That's our checks and balances not working or being adhered to. As far as I am concerned that's the same reason gun owner are supporting the Republicans, yes not all Republicans. We're hoping they are the checks and balances to stop the constitution from being violated. Just as Democrats should have fought all the violations Bush passed. The stupid argument here is "we don't care about your second amendment rights because you didn't protect our rights under Bush." That's just more of the people (Us) losing power. I see a lot of familiar faces including Dems who sat by, and watched Bush trample a lot of things and did nothing, still in office. Why?

    One more point about nation building. In many African countries they do not think like we do. Baby rapes (yes babies) are common due to their beliefs that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS. You can't fight every battle for everyone. Sometimes they need to step up and fight as well. If we stopped every tyrant around the world we'd be stuck running these countries and trying to force a culture on them they are not used to and in some cases don't want. Just like Iraq and Afghanistan. That was why Bush one pulled out of Iraq instead of getting Hussein in the 90's.

    Go to a third world country and your whole world view will change. Not everyone wants what we have... yet.

    RonG thanks for your service.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
    That may be so and in fact I remember reading a rolling stone book about Clinton in 99 or early 2000. In the last chapter was a section on Bush and he all but guaranteed that if elected he would invade Iraq an kill Hussein because he tried to kill his Dad. When we went to war I remembered this and though hmmm....

    But please don't lump our troops into your feelings. I assure you they weren't running around procuring oil fields and worry about oil. There are mass graves there and there was genocide. Hussein and his sons committed atrocities we would never tolerate from anyone here. Whether the intentions from our leaders were flawed or not, the guys who fought this war had only the best of intentions for humanity. They deserve respect for their courage and bravery.
    When did I ever lump the troops in with Bush's decisions? They just do their job. They don't choose which countries we invade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shukle View Post
    I can't understand why you would buy you 13 year old daughter a riffle.
    Passing things on... That's why. Teaching his daughter to be resourceful and able to procure her own food. What would you do if Europe falls apart over all of your debt and you couldn't get food from the grocery store? Would you lay there and die? Beg for help from another country? In this country a lot of us are still resourceful and not dependent on someone else to provide for us. Sure we still go to the grocery store. But if we couldn't it wouldn't pose much of a problem. I think that issue is based on your population and geography though. Europe used up most of their natural resources and hunted almost everything to extinction 100's of years ago. You guys are now too densely populated to live like we do.

    I have been to Brussels, Antwerp, and Bruges. It's a beautiful country with great people. You guys have your own history and traditions just like we do. I don't however see Americans asking you to change. Just find it interesting, what makes people in Belgium feel they have the right to tell us how our country should be? Someone from Belgium should be more than aware of the dislike of outsiders telling someone how to live their lives considering your history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    When did I ever lump the troops in with Bush's decisions? They just do their job. They don't choose which countries we invade.
    It just comes off like some of the quotes on here lump the troops into the same thinking that goes on higher up. We're all in this together. Did not mean to offend or put that on you specifically. That said, these guys still did a world of good for a lot of people. Wrong pretense be damned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shukle View Post
    I have to agree with Jack on this one, W Bush clearly lied and went to Irak for the oil, his arguments are dead on...

    And thank you for finding the laws of my country, I didn't know any of that. But since the laws pretty much the same, how come nobody has a gun? I seriously have never met anybody who had a gun at his place, not that I knew of at least.

    And you are right, last year we had a that crazy Amrani who went all CoD on us, it happened in my home town! Fortunately, I wasn't there and none of my family and friends were harmed. The truth is, there are insane people everywhere. Gun control might not have changed anything, but allowing guns wouldn't have either. He was on the main square of the city and there were plenty of people, it took him less than ten minutes to do his damage. gun control doesn't prevent crazy ass people from doing anything. Allowing guns and pretty much worshipping them though, makes it more likely. I can't understand why you would buy you 13 year old daughter a riffle.

    But that article is pretty darn awful anyway. Belgium is totally full of criminals, especially brussels... I have lived here for 5 years, walked everywhere at night, sometimes pretty drunk, and have never had any problem... As for our justice system, I don't believe in death penalty, nor jail, but thats another debate. once again I never said Belgium was perfect, it is far from perfect (though as all of you, I love my country).

    I believe the problem is much deeper than just gun control. We can not keep forbidding everything, put cameras, have police everywhere, guns everywhere, more control, more paper work... I mean what's all this about? We need to change the whole entire system and think about something else, because there is proof everywhere it isn't working : the environment, the economy crumbling, the violent crimes, the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer,... And all we do is keep forbidding and forbidding. The thing is, Europe is just following your steps in that direction. You have been leaders since WWII, so now people are looking up on you guys, and the USA are not setting a good exemple. And as good sheeps, europe still follows... Now, I am pretty happy about Obama, he brings hope after W.Bush and actually tries to chnage some things, he might not amazing, but always better than Romney.
    This will be my last response to you on this, If you don't know the facts you shouldn't try and jump in the debate. How do you not know the laws of your own country? Yet you want to tell us what we should do or what is wrong with us... honestly dude you thought you had a full weapon ban...I am dumb founded.

    As for my daughter, I come from a long line of hunters and military men. I shot my first deer when I was 7. I can honestly live off the land, and I am teaching my children that. To me a rifle is no different than a fishing pole. It is a tool that is it nothing more, I have 4 children, 3 boys one girl, they all know how to hunt and fish and defend themselves. I would feel like a failure as a parent and and father if I did not pass these skills on to them. You know what else, my kids know fire arm safety and they know the responsibility that comes with owning a gun. We have a weapon safe, we have trigger locks.

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    Default Re: gun control

    Meanwhile... janitors? This is what you want? The guy who cleans the smeared feces off bathroom tiles all day? What the fuck was that?
    “It's hard for winners to do comedy. Comedy is inherently subversive. We represent the underdog as comedy usually speaks for the lower classes. We attack the winners.” ~Harold Ramis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randolphkeys View Post
    Meanwhile... janitors? This is what you want? The guy who cleans the smeared feces off bathroom tiles all day? What the fuck was that?
    You must be teaching them well if they are smearing feces on the bathroom tiles. Janitors is a bit foolish, but seeing as you're a teacher I am interested would you carry a weapon in to school to protect the kids? Interested in your thoughts on this.

    I find it interesting our money has armed guards. Our ballparks and arena's have armed guards. Are our kids not more valuable than money? Besides that will give a reason to ensure people vote for teachers raises

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    Default Re: gun control

    Quote Originally Posted by shukle View Post

    I know the answer i am gonna get all too well : screw you and your socialist country. Well, have you ever think that socialism (not communism) might be a good thing? Socialism is tied to gun control, socialism is actually believing that everybody is worth the same and that we are all on the same page, no need to protect myself from the others, they are my friends...
    I wish you would have posted this first so I knew to stop reading sooner.

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