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Thread: 2014 NBA Draft

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdog1 View Post
    Before injuries he was a 20/10 machine. Not too many of those play in the NBA right now. Maybe not a franchise player on the level of LeBron (maybe 10 in NBA history are...), but we'd be in a great situation with a 20/10 PG, and a 20/10 PF/C.

    As for Wiggins I just don't see him being on Durant's level like he is being touted. I think a lot of his hype has to do with him being Canadian honestly.
    It's hard to see anyone on a superstar level when they're not yet a superstar. One thing Wiggins has that Durant doesn't is elite athleticism. Durant is very average athletically if not below average. Durant makes up for it with crazy length and excellent skills.
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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mdog1 View Post
    Before injuries he was a 20/10 machine. Not too many of those play in the NBA right now. Maybe not a franchise player on the level of LeBron (maybe 10 in NBA history are...), but we'd be in a great situation with a 20/10 PG, and a 20/10 PF/C.

    As for Wiggins I just don't see him being on Durant's level like he is being touted. I think a lot of his hype has to do with him being Canadian honestly.
    He's young and just scratching the surface of what he can and will be in a few years, but he was already dominating (not just holding his own) against older star players when he was matched up against them. If I remember correctly, his big coming out party was the Nike Hoops Summit. He was the youngest player there but looked like the most impressive NBA prospect over guys like Shabazz and Noel. I streamed that game and he really did look every bit the legitimate future #1 pick, even though it was clear he hadn't put everything together yet. Haven't really kept track of him since then, but by all accounts he's been even better recently in the AAU scene.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by RMsDanielGibson View Post
    Durant is very average athletically if not below average.
    what?

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by polklop1 View Post
    what?
    The average for no-step vertical jump of any player who was ever drafted and participated in the NBA combine athletic testing is 29.39 inches. The average of the small forwards from that group is 29.3 inches. Kevin Durant's vertical when tested at combine: 26 inches. Below average.

    The average for max vertical jump of any player who was ever drafted and participated in the NBA combine athletic testing is 34.75 inches. The average of the small forwards from that group is 34.9 inches. Kevin Durant's vertical when tested at combine: 33.5 inches. Below average.

    The average for bench press reps of 185 of any player who was ever drafted and participated in the NBA combine athletic testing is 11.01 reps. The average of the small forwards from that group is 10.1 reps. Kevin Durant's reps when tested at combine: 0 reps. Below average and the worst ever.

    The average for lane agility of any player who was ever drafted and participated in the NBA combine athletic testing is 11.37 seconds. The average of the small forwards from that group is 11.31 seconds. Kevin Durant's lane agility results when tested at combine: 12.33 seconds. Below average.

    The average for three-fourths court sprint of any player who was ever drafted and participated in the NBA combine athletic testing is 3.3 seconds. The average of the small forwards from that group is 3.28 seconds. Kevin Durant's three-fourths court sprint when tested at combine: 3.45 seconds. Below average.

    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

    Kevin Durant's athletic testing compares even worse to top 15 picks who tested at the NBA combine (guys who are overall more likely to have made it in the NBA than picks 16-60), so, even when compared to a group that had a lot of guys who never even made it into the NBA, Kevin Durant still tests out below average athleticism. I hope that helps you better understand that Kevin Durant is at best an average athlete, and, by at least these standards, below average. Kevin Durant has gotten a little stronger since he's entered into the NBA, but so have all the other players.

    Like I said, Kevin Durant is a below average athleticism player who gets by on his extreme size and basketball skills a la Dirk Nowitzki.
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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I guess that's why they say statistics can be used to prove anything.

    Maybe the fact that he's 6'9" and is able to play small forward is because he's so athletic. Doing the things he's able to do at his size is a product of his incredible hand-eye coordination and athleticism. Why don't you go back and compare his abilities to players 6'9" and over? Oh, and I like the fact that you include bench press reps, nothing says athleticism like how much weight you can lift.







    Below average athleticism, guys.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by polklop1 View Post
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I guess that's why they say statistics can be used to prove anything.

    Maybe the fact that he's 6'9" and is able to play small forward is because he's so athletic. Doing the things he's able to do at his size is a product of his incredible hand-eye coordination and athleticism. Why don't you go back and compare his abilities to players 6'9" and over? Oh, and I like the fact that you include bench press reps, nothing says athleticism like how much weight you can lift.







    Below average athleticism, guys.
    Or maybe the reason why Durant is 6'9" and can play small forward is because he is so skilled? Do you think that LeBron would've played small forward or, even further, had the ability to play PG, SG, SF, and PF simply because of his athleticism? No. It's because he was so skilled, he was able to be a perimeter player and carry out the things needed from a perimeter player. You don't just shove any player onto the perimeter because they're athletic. Doing what Durant does at his size is a sheer product of skill and has nothing to do with having great athleticism. It's just a non-argument here and silly to think that Durant's some athletic player.

    None of those plays displayed great athleticism. A dunk or posterization does not make a person athletic. Those clips showed a high basketball IQ that allowed Durant to cut to the rim at the right time, good ball-handling for a guy his size, and a tall, super long body that allows him to dunk with ease once he got to the rim. Don't mistake length and skill for athleticism. It's not like he jumped out of the gym or used blazing speed in any of those videos. With a 9'2" standing reach, he only needs to jump 10 inches in order to touch the rim. It's no wonder he can dunk so easily.

    Lastly, after studying exercise physiology for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with absolute certainty that strength is absolutely a part of athleticism. Athleticism isn't just about how fast and quickly you can move yourself, but also about how much you can move of other things.

    Ok, I'm done feeding the troll.
    Last edited by Löttery Göd; 12-24-2012 at 03:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Wiggins is overrated IMO. I'm sick of judging athleticism in any other form than with NCAA/NBA style cameras, because I always get it wrong when the angles are different. Barnes and Shabazz both looked explosive to me in all the cam courtside clips or highlight packages... then when the college games started they were slow. When the camera angle and court looks the same I know exactly what to look for athletically. If I'm watching a grainy courtside fan film, I don't have a feel for what's elite NBA athleticism and what isn't. I have a feeling this is exactly why a lot of HS players have had their athleticism wrongly ranked (Mayo, Derozan, Barnes, Marvin among recent examples). Different angles and viewpoints make it harder to compare

    The reason that's relevant at least to me, is that there is footage of Wiggins on NCAA/NBA style cams, at the Nike Hoop Summit, as shown in this 9 minute clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4pK2synQRQ And what I see in that video is a great athlete, but not a freak. I don't see him blow by defenders, nor do I see any OMG vertical explosiveness moves, and he has a number of opportunities to bust one out. For example he has a play that's a gift wrapped poster waiting to happen that ends up being an awkward lay-in over the defender, and another play where he misses a dunk under the basket because he can't explode upwards enough. Those two plays were perfect freak athlete opportunities that turned into weak showings. He kind of looks like Marvin Williams athletically tbh. Smooth and a great athlete for a human being but is the first step blow by ability there?

    And the problem for Wiggins is that if he's anything less than a "different species" Westbrook, Jordan, Lebron, etc. type of freak, he doesn't deserve the hype he's getting because his skill level is much more decent than exemplary. His ballhandling in particular looks shaky and that's the #1 thing you don't want as a wing player in regards to upside

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhi View Post
    Franchise player, he was not.
    If Elton Brand was not a franchise player when he was with the Bulls, then TT has no hope and might as well just quit




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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Id draft Andrew Wiggins with no. 1 pick in the 2013 draft. He had just turned 17 at the Nike Hoop Summitt. 17.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by MYoung23 View Post
    Id draft Andrew Wiggins with no. 1 pick in the 2013 draft. He had just turned 17 at the Nike Hoop Summitt. 17.
    You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who wouldn't.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by RMsDanielGibson View Post
    Or maybe the reason why Durant is 6'9" and can play small forward is because he is so skilled? Do you think that LeBron would've played small forward or, even further, had the ability to play PG, SG, SF, and PF simply because of his athleticism? No. It's because he was so skilled, he was able to be a perimeter player and carry out the things needed from a perimeter player. You don't just shove any player onto the perimeter because they're athletic. Doing what Durant does at his size is a sheer product of skill and has nothing to do with having great athleticism. It's just a non-argument here and silly to think that Durant's some athletic player.

    None of those plays displayed great athleticism. A dunk or posterization does not make a person athletic. Those clips showed a high basketball IQ that allowed Durant to cut to the rim at the right time, good ball-handling for a guy his size, and a tall, super long body that allows him to dunk with ease once he got to the rim. Don't mistake length and skill for athleticism. It's not like he jumped out of the gym or used blazing speed in any of those videos. With a 9'2" standing reach, he only needs to jump 10 inches in order to touch the rim. It's no wonder he can dunk so easily.

    Lastly, after studying exercise physiology for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with absolute certainty that strength is absolutely a part of athleticism. Athleticism isn't just about how fast and quickly you can move yourself, but also about how much you can move of other things.

    Ok, I'm done feeding the troll.
    I'm a troll because I don't think Kevin Durant is a below average athlete? You're a weird guy.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by MYoung23 View Post
    Id draft Andrew Wiggins with no. 1 pick in the 2013 draft. He had just turned 17 at the Nike Hoop Summitt. 17.
    Based on the tape that's out there on all of the prospects, anyone who doesn't think Wiggins looks legit is either hating or hasn't watched him closely aside from a few highlight reels. It's stupid to expect him to look like anything close to a polished product, and he's not. His ball handling isn't that good yet, he could still develop more moves, etc. But what he does have is elite athleticism and size for the position, and that was very obvious even playing alongside all the other elite prospects in that game. Even at the NBA level he'll be able to either explode past his defender or shoot over the top, and on defense he has the skills to be a lockdown defender and very good shotblocker/rebounder for the position. From what I've seen there's a lot more to nitpick about Jabari Parker compared to Wiggins.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by RMsDanielGibson View Post
    Or maybe the reason why Durant is 6'9" and can play small forward is because he is so skilled? Do you think that LeBron would've played small forward or, even further, had the ability to play PG, SG, SF, and PF simply because of his athleticism? No. It's because he was so skilled, he was able to be a perimeter player and carry out the things needed from a perimeter player. You don't just shove any player onto the perimeter because they're athletic. Doing what Durant does at his size is a sheer product of skill and has nothing to do with having great athleticism. It's just a non-argument here and silly to think that Durant's some athletic player.

    None of those plays displayed great athleticism. A dunk or posterization does not make a person athletic. Those clips showed a high basketball IQ that allowed Durant to cut to the rim at the right time, good ball-handling for a guy his size, and a tall, super long body that allows him to dunk with ease once he got to the rim. Don't mistake length and skill for athleticism. It's not like he jumped out of the gym or used blazing speed in any of those videos. With a 9'2" standing reach, he only needs to jump 10 inches in order to touch the rim. It's no wonder he can dunk so easily.

    Lastly, after studying exercise physiology for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with absolute certainty that strength is absolutely a part of athleticism. Athleticism isn't just about how fast and quickly you can move yourself, but also about how much you can move of other things.

    Ok, I'm done feeding the troll.
    I just cant get on board with you on this one. Durant is absolutely, without question, an elite athlete. Might wanna drop that bone, killa.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Just as skill does not always equal elite athlete, measurement does not always equal elite athlete.

    Durants bench press was 5 years ago and irrelevent. He rebounds fine for the SF postion and has other ways to get rebounds than to out brute someone. Regardless, NBA is not NFL. Bench press is not an indicator at all of translatable NBA skills. You can have a sheer brute who can bench press a lot, but is not a coordinated, elite athlete.

    You point out Durants standing jump as being average while neglecting to mention that both his Height, Standing reach, and wingspan are well above average in general and for his position.

    Elite athleticism needs to be a means to an end skill set. An ability to do the things in basketball that matter like run the floor, extend high for rebounds and receive passes, get your shot off from anywhere on the floor and from just about any angle.

    Larry Bird and Ron Artest are not elite athletes but were highly skilled and ridicously competitive.
    Durant is highly skilled and while he might not be at the high end of the elite athlete category, he's certainly at/above the threshold of elite NBA athlete status


    Quote Originally Posted by RMsDanielGibson View Post
    Or maybe the reason why Durant is 6'9" and can play small forward is because he is so skilled? Do you think that LeBron would've played small forward or, even further, had the ability to play PG, SG, SF, and PF simply because of his athleticism? No. It's because he was so skilled, he was able to be a perimeter player and carry out the things needed from a perimeter player. You don't just shove any player onto the perimeter because they're athletic. Doing what Durant does at his size is a sheer product of skill and has nothing to do with having great athleticism. It's just a non-argument here and silly to think that Durant's some athletic player.

    None of those plays displayed great athleticism. A dunk or posterization does not make a person athletic. Those clips showed a high basketball IQ that allowed Durant to cut to the rim at the right time, good ball-handling for a guy his size, and a tall, super long body that allows him to dunk with ease once he got to the rim. Don't mistake length and skill for athleticism. It's not like he jumped out of the gym or used blazing speed in any of those videos. With a 9'2" standing reach, he only needs to jump 10 inches in order to touch the rim. It's no wonder he can dunk so easily.

    Lastly, after studying exercise physiology for the better part of a decade, I can tell you with absolute certainty that strength is absolutely a part of athleticism. Athleticism isn't just about how fast and quickly you can move yourself, but also about how much you can move of other things.

    Ok, I'm done feeding the troll.

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    Default Re: Chad Ford on the 2014 NBA Class

    Quote Originally Posted by jlegg21 View Post
    I just cant get on board with you on this one. Durant is absolutely, without question, an elite athlete. Might wanna drop that bone, killa.
    In comparison to the NBA population, if he can't run fast, turn on a dime, jump high, or outmuscle someone, then how is he an elite athlete? He's surely an elite player, but he gets it done due to his sick-nasty length and skills, not his athleticism. There's a distinct difference. Length isn't athleticism. Neither is being able to handle the ball, shoot it, etc. LeBron James is an elite athlete. Nate Robinson is an elite athlete. Derrick Rose is an elite athlete. Gerald Green is an elite athlete. Alonzo Gee is an elite athlete. Andre Drummond is an elite athlete. Dwight Howard is an elite athlete. Russell Westbrook is an elite athlete. Michael Jordan was an elite athlete. Every one of those guys would beat Durant down the floor by a mile, can change direction quicker than Durant, jump close to 6" higher each, and outmuscle their defenders. This athleticism doesn't always turn into on-court production, but that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm talking about sheer athleticism in a vacuum. I understand that, in the end, what matters is what is produced on the court, but Durant being not even close to an elite athlete is the point I'm trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by MirORich View Post
    Just as skill does not always equal elite athlete, measurement does not always equal elite athlete.

    Durants bench press was 5 years ago and irrelevent. He rebounds fine for the SF postion and has other ways to get rebounds than to out brute someone. Regardless, NBA is not NFL. Bench press is not an indicator at all of translatable NBA skills. You can have a sheer brute who can bench press a lot, but is not a coordinated, elite athlete.

    You point out Durants standing jump as being average while neglecting to mention that both his Height, Standing reach, and wingspan are well above average in general and for his position.

    Elite athleticism needs to be a means to an end skill set. An ability to do the things in basketball that matter like run the floor, extend high for rebounds and receive passes, get your shot off from anywhere on the floor and from just about any angle.

    Larry Bird and Ron Artest are not elite athletes but were highly skilled and ridicously competitive.
    Durant is highly skilled and while he might not be at the high end of the elite athlete category, he's certainly at/above the threshold of elite NBA athlete status
    I'm not arguing about the term "athlete" in terms of looking at the player as a whole kind of athlete. I'm talking about athleticism. How fast you are. How high you can jump. How agile you are. How strong you are. Of course he's an elite "athlete" in the sense of being an NBA player, and of course he gets the job done. I'm arguing sheerly about his physical athletic ability--not his skills or his length or being a player as a whole.

    What I am saying is that, relative to the rest of the NBA, he's a below-average to average physical athlete. But his skills are elite for a small forward, and his length is almost unheard of for a small forward. At both of these things he is so elite that his athleticism is really irrelevant just like Kyrie's average athleticism doesn't really make who he is as a player.
    "For the Tank God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Tank Son, Antawn Jamison, and whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have everlasting high draft picks." - Tank 3:16

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