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  1. #76
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Jamison and Dion are very different players.

    Jamison was a guy that if he had a little space near the hoop and you passed him the ball, he'd score with ease. If he didn't have a lot of space, he'd still find a way to throw something up and scored some of the time. The net effect was that his inside scoring % was very good. Most of Jamison's jumpers were assisted as well, but his % on those was not good.

    The majority of the time, though, Dion is creating his own shot ... whether a jumper or a drive. His effectiveness on those J's is higher than Jamison last season, but his FG% inside is much lower, but again he's creating 73% of those shots for himself.

    If Kyrie and Dion ever learn to play off each other they should be able to raise each others' efficiency. That is rather the whole point of pairing them.

    Unfortunately, the easy way to do that isn't going to be too productive ... meaning if they ran P&R with each other, the opposing defenders would just switch. It's not like we can use that to force a big/small mixup because Kyrie and Dion are too similar in size.
    Last edited by Jon; 01-29-2013 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #77
    Rising Star moohead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take



    Damn...how did we get to Tawn vs Dion?
    Moohead Radio...kinda like ESPN Radio without the talent and information.

  3. #78
    Veteran Cavatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Jamison and Dion are very different players.

    Jamison was a guy that if he had a little space near the hoop and you passed him the ball, he'd score with ease. If he didn't have a lot of space, he'd still find a way to throw something up and scored some of the time. The net effect was that his inside scoring % was very good. Most of Jamison's jumpers were assisted as well, but his % on those was not good.

    The majority of the time, though, Dion is creating his own shot ... whether a jumper or a drive. His effectiveness on those J's is higher than Jamison last season, but his FG% inside is much lower, but again he's creating 73% of those shots for himself.

    If Kyrie and Dion ever learn to play off each other they should be able to raise each others' efficiency. That is rather the whole point of pairing them.

    Unfortunately, the easy way to do that isn't going to be too productive ... meaning if they ran P&R with each other, the opposing defenders would just switch. It's not like we can use that to force a big/small mixup because Kyrie and Dion are too similar in size.
    I keep thinking about what an advantage it could be to have them run the pick and roll together just because they can both beat their man. It wouldn't be a mismatch thing, it would just be a way to get free. Neither one needs much room to get a shot off. You don't see this much, but I think Dion could especially be dangerous as the screener with his wide body. Anything to get either of them to move off the ball.

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavatt View Post
    I keep thinking about what an advantage it could be to have them run the pick and roll together just because they can both beat their man. It wouldn't be a mismatch thing, it would just be a way to get free. Neither one needs much room to get a shot off. You don't see this much, but I think Dion could especially be dangerous as the screener with his wide body. Anything to get either of them to move off the ball.
    I won't complain if they want to try it, but I expect the defense is just going to switch on it every time; but hey maybe it would keep at least one defender from cheating in to the paint.

  5. #80
    Keeping the Faith Stark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Brickman View Post
    Um...Oklahoma City?
    Westbrook is barely a top five point guard (in my opinion), let alone top five player in the entire league. There's no reason to expect he will be by 2014 either.

    You'd have to expect that LeBron, Durant, Kyrie, and Paul will still be better. Rose should be if his surgery goes well. Ditto Rondo. Kevin Love is probably better as well.

    Westbrook maybe cracks the top fifteen.
    Last edited by Stark; 01-31-2013 at 04:47 PM.

  6. #81
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by SRStark20 View Post
    Westbrook is barely a top five point guard, let alone top five player in the entire league. There's no reason to expect he will be by 2014 either.

    You'd have to expect that LeBron, Durant, Kyrie, and Paul will still be better. Rose should be if his surgery goes well. Ditto Rondo. Kevin Love is probably better as well.

    Westbrook maybe cracks the top fifteen.
    Westbrook is only 12th overall in the league in PER, and among point guards he is 3rd in PER, 2nd in Estimated Wins Added, 2nd in Value Added, 2nd in points per game, 1st in rebounds per game, 5th in assists per game, tied for 4th in steals per game, and 3rd in double doubles.

    Yeah, he certainly doesn't sound like a top five point guard.

    I really don't understand what Westbrook did to some of you people. It's like he went to the store on a day off and banged all your moms. The dude is a great player. Is he a bit of a chucker? Yes, absolutely, but that doesn't change the fact that he's easily one of the best twenty players in the league (probably top ten) and certainly a top five point guard, although technically he's probably more of a two.

    And Kevin Love better? Please. Westbrook was a key player on a Finals team, and he played pretty well in those Finals. Kevin Love has yet to make the fucking playoffs.

  7. #82
    Keeping the Faith Stark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    I thought we were talking about 2014. Westbrook has the second best player in the game, had the best sixth man in the game, and has an athletic shot blocking monster down on the block to get to the finals.

    Kevin Love has... Rubio?

    If the finals started today, and everybody in the league was healthy (which I factored in when actually ranking Westbrook), I would rather have Paul, Rondo, Rose, Parker, and dare I say Kyrie Irving starting on my team over Westbrook.

    There is no denying his talent, and there is no doubt he'll get better down the road, but as for now, I see him as a shooting guard. Not a point guard. He doesn't play like a point guard.

  8. #83
    Keeping the Faith Stark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Anyways, in regards to the original post, here is my take.

    First. Watch this video (I realize it may still be a bit painful for those who are still touchy over LeBron):



    Look at that roster.

    David Wesley. Damon Jones. Eric Snow. Donyell Marshall. Scot Pollard.

    I don't think it is a stretch to say that any of those players (given their current ability at that time) would be on our bench today. Look at us. We're a top-five worst team in the league. That bench went to the finals.

    The starting lineup was Gibson - Sasha Pavlovic - LeBron - Drew Gooden - Z. Two of those players would start on today's team (once again, given their talents at the time). LeBron and Z. You could maybe make a case for Gooden, but I think Thompson is overall better than Gooden at this time. Sasha was a scrub, but so was Hughes. Gibson was a rookie in this season if I remember correctly.

    That team on paper is pretty horrible. I was eleven years old when the Cavs went to the finals. I can't say that I remember all that much of anything from that series besides getting swept. I have to rely on YouTube and the occasional ESPN replay to relive pretty much anything pre-2008 for the Cavaliers.

    On to my point:

    THAT Cavaliers team went to the finals. Once again, I haven't sat down and done a ton of research on the subject, but I'm going to guess the East wasn't that good that year. I remember the series against the Pistons more than the Spurs. I know most of our success was because of LeBron.

    You just never know. If I went back on this site and found the 2007 beginning of the year threads, I doubt there were too many people saying that we'd go to the finals. The team just wasn't sexy on paper, yet they still got there.

    We have no clue what the East will be like in another couple years. We have no clue if LeBron is going to come back, or if the Heat are going to disband. We have no clue if Rose or Rondo will come back 100% ever again. We have no clue what player is going to explode and become the next huge superstar (my bet is Paul George). We have no clue who is going to fall off a cliff, or who is going to be the next LeBron out of the draft, or who is going to tear their ACL and never play again.

    It's fun to speculate, but looking down the road, we really just don't know.

  9. #84
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by SRStark20 View Post
    I thought we were talking about 2014. Westbrook has the second best player in the game, had the best sixth man in the game, and has an athletic shot blocking monster down on the block to get to the finals.

    Kevin Love has... Rubio?

    If the finals started today, and everybody in the league was healthy (which I factored in when actually ranking Westbrook), I would rather have Paul, Rondo, Rose, Parker, and dare I say Kyrie Irving starting on my team over Westbrook.

    There is no denying his talent, and there is no doubt he'll get better down the road, but as for now, I see him as a shooting guard. Not a point guard. He doesn't play like a point guard.
    And do you think Westbrook is going to start magically being a terrible player between now and a year from now? I don't. The kid is 24 and likely hasn't even entered his prime yet. You can talk about how good his team is all you want, but it's not as if he's not a part of that. He's the second-best player on the team, and was even when Harden was still there.

    I don't care who Kevin Love has on his team. Everyone wants to proclaim him a superstar but he has yet to sniff the playoffs and during the dozen or so games he was healthy this year he played like dog shit. I'd still take him on this team, but I'm starting to have my doubts about both his character and the ability for his stats to transfer into wins. The way I see it, by the time you start making max money, you better be able to carry a bad team to at least the eighth seed if you want to call yourself a superstar, and Love clearly wants to call himself a superstar. We've seen many a superstar carry a shit team to the playoffs, even in the loaded West.

    As far as Westbrook being more of a two, I would agree. However, you could very easily make the same argument, and probably an even better one, for Kyrie.

  10. #85
    Keeping the Faith Stark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Yeah, but we aren't talking about Kyrie.

    Anyways, I just went and looked at Westbrook's full numbers, and they are impressive. The one thing that shot out at me though was the 19 shots per night and only 41% shooting. When you have a guy like Durant on your team who is probably the best pure scorer in the game, and then you have a three point scoring wizard in Kevin Martin... you don't need to shoot almost twenty times a night.

    If Westbrook could play a 19/7/11 game on 47/35/85 shooting as opposed to his current 23/5/8 game on 41/33/80 shooting like he is doing now, he'd be much higher up in my books.

  11. #86
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Westbrook is 9th on the Thunder in TS%... f'in Stevie Francis and Stephon Marbury have higher career averages than Russ. At least he plays some D.

  12. #87
    Draft Guru ajz20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Here is a nightmare scenario that is appropriate for this thread.. This is the direction some of the posters wanted to take..... Go back into the old posts if you dont believe me...

    PF Williams
    PG Night
    SF Batum (max contract)
    SG Austin Rivers
    C- Assik ( over 10 millions a year)


    7th seed at best for the forseable future, no top 10 picks of our own, and no cap space
    and record low hits on RCF due to despression!!
    Thank god none of these desires of the board happened!
    Last edited by ajz20; 01-31-2013 at 11:00 PM.

  13. #88
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by ajz20 View Post
    Here is a nightmare scenario that is appropriate for this thread.. This is the direction some of the posters wanted to take..... Go back into the old post if you dont believe me...

    PF Williams
    PG Night
    SF Batum (max contract)
    SG Austin Rivers
    C- Assik ( over 10 millions a year) 7th seed at best or the forseable future and no cap space!! Thank god none of these desires of the board happened!
    7th seed at best? Our current team is better than that crap (with a healthy Andy).

  14. #89
    Draft Guru ajz20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by SRStark20 View Post
    7th seed at best? Our current team is better than that crap (with a healthy Andy).
    I was being very kind with 7th seed at best! My point is there is a lot of revisionist history when it comes to people projecting who they want!

  15. #90
    Team Player Homestar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's a fun question to be discussed about 2014. I'd love YOUR take

    Quote Originally Posted by SRStark20 View Post
    Anyways, in regards to the original post, here is my take.

    First. Watch this video (I realize it may still be a bit painful for those who are still touchy over LeBron):


    Oh man.

    I watched that clip about 600 times when I first found it originally.

    God, that guy was loved. Makes it impossible to believe the night of The Decision.

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