[Vindicate2]

Originally Posted by SmknJoe7

Not really. We were at 85 to start the year. That'd be 110mil. Not to mention, who is closing then? Jensen Lewis? Perez? Closer has been a sore spot and had to be addressed. It's just not as easy as adding a few bucks here and there. Shap's continued drafting idiocy has put us far, far behind what it takes to contend with a realistic payroll.

According to this article, opening day payroll was 80.5

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/04/indians_insider_opening_day_pa.html

I agree with you on Shapiro drafts have hurt the organization. To be honest, if the Indians could have sign CC I would sign him first and worried about the closer after that. I wasn't thinking specifically for 2009, I was thinking I have CC locked up for 7 years to build around.

CC is the best pitcher I've seen in an Indians uniform in my lifetime. Pitchers like that don't grow on trees and (unfortunately) he will be spending his prime years in New York.

I think with him being a solid #1 n a weak division could make a big difference in being competitive in the division.

[SmknJoe7]

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/b...aspx?year=2009

[Vindicate2]

Didn't see your post regarding the payroll until after I made my post with the Plain Dealer Article. You make some good points regarding the payroll ... thanks for the discussion.

Originally Posted by SmknJoe7

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/b...aspx?year=2009

[cmstophe]

Originally Posted by SmknJoe7

It was actually 81.58mil and was dead middle of MLB, not shabby at all for a crud market. We spent more than St Louis, Minnesota, Colorado, Texas, etc. Revisionist thinking about Hafner always cracks me up. He was a beast when he was signed and Jake was worth every penny he got. Actually, a healthy Westbrook is about our only truely known commodity in the starting rotation. There's guys like Jake and Pronk on every single roster in MLB. The problem is drafting, plain and simple. This "theory" that we have improved drafting sure flew by me. The proof is in the pudding and right now I ain't seein no pudding. Our best prospects have been acquired from other team's systems. Our number one drafted pitching prospect goes on the DL for months at a time for blisters.

Eh, I'm stopping now as this is totally the wrong avenue for my bitching, but it goes much further than some owner dropping an extra dime or two into the kitty for this team to get straight and find its way back into the pocketbooks of its fans.

"Revisionist history" in regards to Hafner is an irrelevant argument. We're talking about where the $$$ was tied up, and Hafner was a useless $11+ million that was tied up. Fact. Same with Jake. Fact.

As for drafting, I'm no shill for Shapiro. Trust me. I'm just saying they have changed up their scouting and drafting in the last couple of years and we'll find out if it changes anything.

[LJ4MVP]

1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 - the indians were 4th in the league in payroll

Dolan bought the team Nov 1st, 1999

In 2000, they dropped to 8th and missed the playoffs for the first time 6 years.
In 2001, they spent money and moved back up to 5th - payroll was a franchise record 92,660,001 million that year. They made the playoffs.
in 2002, they cut payroll and dropped to 9th
in 2003, they slashed payroll and dropped to 26th. In two years payroll dropped from 92.6 million to 48.5 million.
2004, the slashed again - down to 27th in the league, payroll 34.3 million

It's no wonder the teams lost fans. A 3 year salary drop from 92 million to 34 million. That's not the way to generate fan excitement.

Payroll started going back up, but they stayed in the bottom 3rd of the league until 2008 - the year after they were a game away from the world series, when they moved up to 16th and last year they moved to 14th. Both years they dumped talent and slashed payroll at the trade deadline.

Last year, when they were 14th in payroll at 81.5 million, they spent 11 million less than they did in 2001.

[jcefaratti]

Originally Posted by SmknJoe7

It was actually 81.58mil and was dead middle of MLB, not shabby at all for a crud market.

Looks closer to 80 than 85 to me.

Btw, before the other poster was saying WITHOUT wood we could have signed CC (if we had 100m payroll). So 81.58-10=72 plus 20 = 92. Still some room in there.

Plus that payroll to start the year (82) is down to near 55 or so now with the trades. Now only if we could trade Wood, Hafner and Westbrook. We could be good then.

[Bison11]

Originally Posted by DC42315

The Columbus Blue Jackets are not in a hot financial situation right now, and I believe I've read Gilbert wants to own an NHL team somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him buy the team if John McConnell wants to sell and either keep them there or move them up to Cleveland.

Not sure if anyone is a hockey fan in here or not, but this is something I've been following.

Man, I would be so pumped if the Blue Jackets would be in Cleveland. I am just glad that the games are on FSN

[MoFloDeepintheQ]

Originally Posted by Vindicate2

Good point. If you added 30 mil, you probably keep CC.

No, because the Yankees just go higher with their offer..

It's simple, the Yankees will ALWAYS outbid other teams for players they want, it's just a matter if the said player wants to go there..

NONE of the Yankees payroll comes out of the owner's pockets.. They get so much money from the YES network, that the revenue they get from it pays for the payroll & then some.

Until the MLB gets some sort of salary cap, the Yankees (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Mets, Red Sox, Angels, and Dodgers) will ALWAYS outbid for free agents they want. Plain and simple..

It won't matter if Gilbert comes in & is willing to spend more money.. the players will still ultimately decide where they want to go.. because ultimately, one of the above teams will always outbid if they have an interest too.

[Snarly]

Dan Gilbert Is trying to run a monopoly Of Cleveland. Meaning When the times comes If he can own either or and or both the teams not called the Cavs,. He would and could. He brought a Big Casino with the biggest NBA star out there and this Is the Start Of the new Cleveland. It Is about time... The city Is finally Growing. I for one am happy to see the change. I know I personally will be Downtown more often Having fun for once. So we Let Gilbert Bring A new style to Cleveland We all know we need It! Remember It takes time to build a future... although I can not wait to take even a few bucks to the casino and just have fun. Then win lose or Draw, go watch a Cavs game after... Sounds good to me!

[Jigo_oi]

Forget all this Indians talk. For many reasons stated above, buying the Indians would not be a good source of revenue for Gilbert.

Buying the Browns would be the much wiser choice and the one I'd want him to make. The Browns are a mess primarily BECAUSE of their current owner. You replace him with a businessman like Gilbert who has a reputation for hiring good people and you probably have a competitor within the next couple years. Lerner isn't a businessman and never has been. He's out of his league owning anything and he's just useless to the organization.

The Indians aren't a mess because of their owner. They're a mess because the city chooses not to support them and once that 1995-2001 bubble was over, they went back to being the small market team they always were. I'm not going to get into why the city doesn't support them as I'm well aware of the " payroll chicken vs. the low attendance egg" discussion being hashed out above. But unless that stadium starts selling out again, they're simply not going to attract big money FA's because the FO isn't justified in paying them. I'm not saying that Dolan is the best owner around because he's not. But I am saying that the ceiling for a team like the Indians is much more limited than the Browns.

I'm not sure what the difference in over-head is between a baseball team vs. a football team is, but I think Gilbert's ownership would have the greater effect on the Browns because of the nature of the league's payroll and the fact that he'd have more control over the team's success than with the Indians.

I'm assuming Gilbert is already smart enough to know this, but buying the Browns could be a huge coup for both him and the city. I hope for our sake that he does it.

[Gunther]

Originally Posted by Jigo_oi

Forget all this Indians talk. For many reasons stated above, buying the Indians would not be a good source of revenue for Gilbert.

Buying the Browns would be the much wiser choice and the one I'd want him to make. The Browns are a mess primarily BECAUSE of their current owner. You replace him with a businessman like Gilbert who has a reputation for hiring good people and you probably have a competitor within the next couple years. Lerner isn't a businessman and never has been. He's out of his league owning anything and he's just useless to the organization.

The Indians aren't a mess because of their owner. They're a mess because the city chooses not to support them and once that 1995-2001 bubble was over, they went back to being the small market team they always were. I'm not going to get into why the city doesn't support them as I'm well aware of the " payroll chicken vs. the low attendance egg" discussion being hashed out above. But unless that stadium starts selling out again, they're simply not going to attract big money FA's because the FO isn't justified in paying them. I'm not saying that Dolan is the best owner around because he's not. But I am saying that the ceiling for a team like the Indians is much more limited than the Browns.

I'm not sure what the difference in over-head is between a baseball team vs. a football team is, but I think Gilbert's ownership would have the greater effect on the Browns because of the nature of the league's payroll and the fact that he'd have more control over the team's success than with the Indians.

I'm assuming Gilbert is already smart enough to know this, but buying the Browns could be a huge coup for both him and the city. I hope for our sake that he does it.

I disagree. The Browns already have an owner with deep pockets in Lerner. Once he hires the proper operations people to take care of the football side of things, he can step out of the spotlight and go back to writing checks. Yes, he has made bad decisions, but I think he finally realizes that he is not a football person and he is looking to change in a positive direction. Finally. But money is not a problem for Lerner the way it is for Dolan.

In fact, you could argue that money has never been an issue with the Browns since the Lerner family has owned them.

The Indians make conservative returns because they are run conservatively. It is that simple. If they had an owner with deeper pockets who was willing to take some risks financially, they would be likely to reap better rewards. Gilbert's deep pockets would do a world of good at the corner of Carnegie and Ontario.

Not to mention, with 81 home games at 40,000 fans a pop, Gilbert has 3.2 million chances of getting more people in his casino vs. 8 home games of 72,000 each for the Browns. It's a no-brainer.

[Jigo_oi]

Originally Posted by Gunther

I disagree. The Browns already have an owner with deep pockets in Lerner. Once he hires the proper operations people to take care of the football side of things, he can step out of the spotlight and go back to writing checks.

The problem is, that he's not going to do that. The only possible chance Browns fans have is if Lerner somehow lucks into a good GM and coach relationship. He's simply not capable of doing it on his own.

Originally Posted by Gunther

Yes, he has made bad decisions, but I think he finally realizes that he is not a football person and he is looking to change in a positive direction.

I doubt it. If he didn't figure it out before, he's not going to figure out now. He can lament the Browns condition with the fans as much as he wants, but no GM in his right mind is going to join an organization where the coach is in control of everything. And I don't even think Lerner is going to have the brains or gall to fire Mangini after the season is over. Lerner is the problem with that organization, regardless of how much of his father's money he throws at it.

Originally Posted by Gunther

But money is not a problem for Lerner the way it is for Dolan.

True. But what is Lerner doing with the money that he already has? Paying coaches and GM's that are no longer in the organization. Terrific.

In any case...it seems that you are the rare Cleveland fan that puts the Tribe first, which is great. It's too bad there's not more of you.

[theSTEREO.]

Originally Posted by Jigo_oi

Forget all this Indians talk. For many reasons stated above, buying the Indians would not be a good source of revenue for Gilbert.
.

I think though that the article was saying that it doesn't particularly matter if the team is making a lot of money. As long as they don't lose it hand over fist, as long as they can break even, it's more about keeping downtown Cleveland constantly populated and busy with paying customers.

Basically, by sinking money into one business that may not be showing in the black, his other company can thrive.

[-Akronite-]

It doesn't seem realistic to ask him to buy the Indians, nor as necessary to buy the Browns. The problem there really isn't ownership.

I would, however, love to see an NHL team in Cleveland. Seems like BS that we don't have the big four. With an exciting new pro hockey team, we'd see bigger results than we have with any of these minor league stints at the Q.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Bison11

Man, I would be so pumped if the Blue Jackets would be in Cleveland. I am just glad that the games are on FSN

I'd rather not see the Jackets move, but if they have too, and if given the option, I'd far rather see them move to Cleveland than Kansas City or Hamilton.

Gilbert will also own a Casino in Cincinnati... I think it's possible he could buy the Reds or the Bengals, if they open up before the Indians or the Browns, to set up the same type of environment he has going on in Cleveland.