Kawhi ?

[Nathan S]

I'm speaking in terms of the overall contract, as in $48M/3 fully guaranteed for a guy who is on the wrong side of 37 years old..

Had the Spurs not made a backroom deal with Pau, and his option year terminated this offseason, he'd be looking at being a vet minimum to mini-MLE salary player in the league. Instead, the Spurs rewarded him for his loyalty with a sizable deal that is really hard to justify.

From the Cavs perspective, we'd be looking at $32M/2Y, but we can't ignore the fact that we'd (1) be sending out one of either Smith, Hill or Thompson in this deal, simply for salary reasons alone; (2) the last year of Kawhi's deal has him at only $20M which is a steal; (3) the last year of Gasol's deal is a decently sized expiring, and we can obviously buy him out if we really need the roster slot; (4) we could use the stretch provision to minimize the tax hit of his last year...

So while Gasol's contract, from the Spurs perspective, was terrible; from the Cavs perspective, one year removed, and coming back with Kawhi -- it's definitely not something that would keep me from agreeing to the trade.

I dunno man...I just totally disagree. I think Gasol would've probably gotten around 12m/year for 3 years from another team if the Spurs hadn't re-signed him. If he were a free agent this summer, he could probably get a contract like what we gave Korver. He's still a very useful player, which isn't all that unusual for a superstar who manages to stay healthy into his late 30's. I don't know what you have against him.

 

[I'mWithDan]

As an organization, you basically take Love off the table and then start offering whatever combination they want of anything that is left.

Brooklyn 1st
Future unprotected Cavs 1st
Nance
Cedi
Filler

Whatever…..throw in Hood, Clarkson, whoever the fuck else.

If Kawhi is truly available this summer, you gut all your assets for him and never look back.

 

[Real Deal]

As an organization, you basically take Love off the table and then start offering whatever combination they want of anything that is left.

Brooklyn 1st
Future unprotected Cavs 1st
Nance
Cedi
Filler

Whatever…..throw in Hood, Clarkson, whoever the fuck else.

If Kawhi is truly available this summer, you gut all your assets for him and never look back.

This is what I'm saying.

If Kawhi doesn't come back vs Warriors then he's good as gone. Their relationship would be shot and never repaired, you have a vet like Tony Parker say his injury was worse... animosity, friction much?

Teammates have to be livid with Kawhi, they just won't make it public because their best player isn't there and essentially all they worked for is a waste.

Kawhi is a risk for Cavs to take on, seems like a diva, especially a player in the Spurs organization, that's unheard of. But it's a risk I'm willing to go all in with. I swear Kawhi will make LeBron be more effective and further his career.

Brooklyn Pick, Cavs future 1st, Cedi, Zizic are Spurs type of assets.

 

[ChicagoCavFan]

Some of these offers assume the Spurs want to reboot. Does Pop want to do that? They'll be looking for All Stars.

 

[Real Deal]

Some of these offers assume the Spurs want to reboot. Does Pop want to do that? They'll be looking for All Stars.

Any examples of disgruntled Superstar's netting a return of All-star's?

I wish Kyrie got us a very good return.

Usually you trade for the disgruntled superstar to pair with your allstar's

 

[gourimoko]

I dunno man...I just totally disagree. I think Gasol would've probably gotten around 12m/year for 3 years from another team if the Spurs hadn't re-signed him. If he were a free agent this summer, he could probably get a contract like what we gave Korver. He's still a very useful player, which isn't all that unusual for a superstar who manages to stay healthy into his late 30's. I don't know what you have against him.

Believe me, I don't have anything "against" Pau Gasol... But I'm simply pointing out that Pau Gasol's contract is quite seriously inflated, particularly given his age and the fact that it's fully guaranteed. I don't think he could have gotten $48M/3Y from any team in the league, and I think getting $12M in the open market from a contending team (not just one filling cap space) simply doesn't seem realistic to me. I'm trying to think of a team last summer that would've signed Gasol for $48M/3Y and I just can't come up with one..

What's more, contemporaneously evaluating Gasol's signing, most commentators panned the decision as a bad move by the Spurs including Zach Lowe. Even the Spurs' own SBNation fan-site, Pounding the Rock called it a "bad contract:"

PtR:
"It’s still a bad deal, just not as bad as it seemed at first
To make it perfectly clear, Gasol’s contract is bad. The Spurs are taking care of someone who very likely was willing to sacrifice for the good of the team while not completely mortgaging their future. That still doesn’t change the fact that — assuming they were willing to lose Simmons — they would have been better off with Pau opting in. The numbers on Gasol’s new contract aren’t as concerning as the fact that the front office seems to have misread how the offseason would play out.

After a closer look, however, this is not as apocalyptic a development as it might have seemed when the news hit. Next season the Spurs will once again have a competitive team, a reputation as player-friendly franchise and the tools to reload down the line.

Most opponents would gladly trade places with San Antonio, even after this seemingly bad offseason."

...

So in saying this, when his contract was signed, I think it was rightfully characterized as a very bad deal for the Spurs.

However... Given I value your opinion, I did the research on Gasol's contract and play over the past several seasons and I will say his contract is less bad than I first thought.

To be clear, I'm not saying my evaluation of him as a player has changed, I think he's over-performing within a system specifically designed to maximize aging Euro-style players and I do not think that would translate to another team (even the aforementioned Spurs outlet mentions this in their later articles on this subject). However, what I was wrong about was that Gasol's contract is fully guaranteed -- that's actually not the case. Gasol's last year is only guaranteed up to $6.7M; which makes the last year of his deal into an actual asset rather than just an expiring.

So all in all, I'm forced to agree that it's not as bad as I first thought....

 

[gourimoko]

As an organization, you basically take Love off the table and then start offering whatever combination they want of anything that is left.

Brooklyn 1st
Future unprotected Cavs 1st
Nance
Cedi
Filler

Whatever…..throw in Hood, Clarkson, whoever the fuck else.

If Kawhi is truly available this summer, you gut all your assets for him and never look back.

If you take Love off the table, I think Spurs move on to another deal... there's just no way to really make up the difference there, IMHO.

 

[Nathan S]

Believe me, I don't have anything "against" Pau Gasol... But I'm simply pointing out that Pau Gasol's contract is quite seriously inflated, particularly given his age and the fact that it's fully guaranteed. I don't think he could have gotten $48M/3Y from any team in the league, and I think getting $12M in the open market from a contending team (not just one filling cap space) simply doesn't seem realistic to me. I'm trying to think of a team last summer that would've signed Gasol for $48M/3Y and I just can't come up with one..

What's more, contemporaneously evaluating Gasol's signing, most commentators panned the decision as a bad move by the Spurs including Zach Lowe. Even the Spurs' own SBNation fan-site, Pounding the Rock called it a "bad contract:"

PtR:
"It’s still a bad deal, just not as bad as it seemed at first
To make it perfectly clear, Gasol’s contract is bad. The Spurs are taking care of someone who very likely was willing to sacrifice for the good of the team while not completely mortgaging their future. That still doesn’t change the fact that — assuming they were willing to lose Simmons — they would have been better off with Pau opting in. The numbers on Gasol’s new contract aren’t as concerning as the fact that the front office seems to have misread how the offseason would play out.

After a closer look, however, this is not as apocalyptic a development as it might have seemed when the news hit. Next season the Spurs will once again have a competitive team, a reputation as player-friendly franchise and the tools to reload down the line.

Most opponents would gladly trade places with San Antonio, even after this seemingly bad offseason."

...

So in saying this, when his contract was signed, I think it was rightfully characterized as a very bad deal for the Spurs.

However... Given I value your opinion, I did the research on Gasol's contract and play over the past several seasons and I will say his contract is less bad than I first thought.

To be clear, I'm not saying my evaluation of him as a player has changed, I think he's over-performing within a system specifically designed to maximize aging Euro-style players and I do not think that would translate to another team (even the aforementioned Spurs outlet mentions this in their later articles on this subject). However, what I was wrong about was that Gasol's contract is fully guaranteed -- that's actually not the case. Gasol's last year is only guaranteed up to $6.7M; which makes the last year of his deal into an actual asset rather than just an expiring.

So all in all, I'm forced to agree that it's not as bad as I first thought....

Agreed on everything except that he's not a Spurs' system product. He was 2nd-team All NBA three seasons ago with the Bulls. I haven't checked, but you can probably count on one hand all the guys who were All NBA that late in their career. Obviously he's declined since then, but he's still by most measures a league-average center at worst, and I think he'd continue to age fairly gracefully even outside of SA if he stays healthy.

 

[gourimoko]

Agreed on everything except that he's not a Spurs' system product. He was 2nd-team All NBA three seasons ago with the Bulls. I haven't checked, but you can probably count on one hand all the guys who were All NBA that late in their career. Obviously he's declined since then, but he's still by most measures a league-average center at worst, and I think he'd continue to age fairly gracefully even outside of SA if he stays healthy.

To be clear, I'm not saying his career is a product of the Spurs; I'm saying the level of play he's put forward this season is a product of the Spurs -- I do not think if he were on the Cavs that it would easily translate.

 

[Nathan S]

To be clear, I'm not saying his career is a product of the Spurs; I'm saying the level of play he's put forward this season is a product of the Spurs -- I do not think if he were on the Cavs that it would easily translate.

No doubt he'll continue to decline, but he's just so skilled that I think he could continue to carve out a useful role in almost any situation. Sort of like a more extreme version of what we've seen with Calderon and Korver (yeah, I'm making the boring white-guy-to-white-guy comparisons, sue me).

 

[I'mWithDan]

If you take Love off the table, I think Spurs move on to another deal... there's just no way to really make up the difference there, IMHO.

My assumption is they would tear it down if they moved Kawhi. Once he exits, their roster is old as fuck.

Love makes a lot less sense for a team looking to retool and realistically, you can't really play Aldridge and Love together.....nor would you get anywhere with those two guys.

Additionally, the Cavs just can't compete as LeBron ages with just a big 2, even one as good as Kawhi / LBJ. It only makes sense to gut your assets if the net result is a big 3 in LeBron's remaining prime.

Without that, the team is probably better off just drafting someone at 8 and trying to see if they could bring in a valuable vet asset while also dumping one of our albatross contracts, creating some financial flexibility.

If GSW is healthy, I really don't think a team with LeBron and Kawhi can beat them. LeBron two years ago? Probably....but LeBron at 34, 35, 36.....I just don't see it.

That's not to say I wouldn't consider doing it but if I'm trading Love, the BK pick is not in the deal. I'd make the Spurs pick.....you can have Love and Cedi / Zizic......or you can just reboot and take every meaningful young asset we have but you can't have both.

 

[gourimoko]

That's not to say I wouldn't consider doing it but if I'm trading Love, the BK pick is not in the deal. I'd make the Spurs pick.....you can have Love and Cedi / Zizic......or you can just reboot and take every meaningful young asset we have but you can't have both.

In your estimation, is Love, Cedi, Zizic and the 8th pick in the draft more valuable than Kawhi Leonard?

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Spurs fans are basically done with Kawhi. They hate his guts. I believe Kawhi and the Spurs are done. His asking price really shouldn't be as much as some of you think it should be...and I gotta tell you, even for me as a fan of a small market team, his attitude kinda makes me want to look away and not risk so damn much for a guy that might even bail with Lebron if we don't win a championship straight away...being a FA and all.

You gotta admit that what he is doing is straight bullshit.

 

[gourimoko]

Spurs fans are basically done with Kawhi. They hate his guts. I believe Kawhi and the Spurs are done. His asking price really shouldn't be as much as some of you think it should be...and I gotta tell you, even for me as a fan of a small market team, his attitude kinda makes me want to look away and not risk so damn much for a guy that might even bail with Lebron if we don't win a championship straight away...being a FA and all.

You gotta admit that what he is doing is straight bullshit.

What he is doing is pretty ... peculiar ...

But I don't think Spurs "fans" or their front office is done with him.. I think they're upset, as the entire NBA is outside of the Bay area, but, he's decided to sit out the playoffs -- which is pretty remarkable.

That being said, there is nothing coming out of the Spurs front office about him being made unavailable -- it's his decision. I think they're doing that not only to protect themselves, and to avoid distractions, but to protect Kawhi's value this summer.

As far as trading him goes; he's going to cost the farm, flat out .. and if he's willing to re-up with the Cavs, then we should be willing to pay it.

 

[Real Deal]

I really don't know how Love fits in with Spurs, or why Spurs would want him. They're in for a full rebuild starting with Brooklyn's pick. Kyle Anderson is their now/future PF, kid is pretty damn good and does it all. I don't know how Love is a plan of theirs if Kyle is ther guy.

Spurs could easily snag Mikal to take Kawhi's spot, receive Cedi to replace Ginobli, Zizic to backup Aldridge, and Hill as filler/vet.

We're in a great position for the Kawhi sweepstakes, and no I doubt it takes a 30 year old Kevin Love to be a deal-breaker.