Larry Nance - Power Forward or Center

[Cavatt]

nance needs to be able to shoot case closed

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

You're talking about size differences not functional differences between the way PF and C operate on the court.

Yes, Zizic is bigger. Yes, being bigger makes a difference. Yes, I think Nance and Zizic can play together. If we call them both PF or C, how does that change it? It doesn't.

There is functional differences between PFs and Cs nowadays regardless of Nance...let's start with that. Unless you think Embiid and Saric are a like, or you think that Steven Adams should be called a PF, or Cousins, or this guy that was drafted 1st, Ayton...he is definitely a Center.

And i there is no difference between PFs and Cs, the you might as well tell me that Zizic has no place in the NBA and the game passed him by, cause he is certainly not a PF.

And by saying that Nance has to play PF basically means that he has to develop some kind of range to be the iong term starter as a PF. That's the requisite.

Still, even now, Nance and Zizic can play together and be very effective, but I wouldn't want them playing full time together unless Nance developed his range.

 

[avs2000]

There is functional differences between PFs and Cs nowadays regardless of Nance...let's start with that. Unless you think Embiid and Saric are a like, or you think that Steven Adams should be called a PF, or Cousins, or this guy that was drafted 1st, Ayton...he is definitely a Center.

And i there is no difference between PFs and Cs, the you might as well tell me that Zizic has no place in the NBA and his game passed him by, cause he is certainly not a PF.

And by saying that Nance has to play PF basically means that he has to develop some kind of range to be the iong term starter as a PF. That's the requisite.

Still, even now, Nance and Zizic can play together and be very effective, but I wouldn't want them playing full time together unless Nance developed his range.

isn't there something to having a true center in zizic that other teams don't. Isnt that a match-up problem for them as well. The opposing "center" is going to be banged around and forced to play inside defense

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

isn't there something to having a true center in zizic that other teams don't. Isnt that a match-up problem for them as well. The opposing "center" is going to be banged around and forced to play inside defense

That's the thing. Big Centers will make their return sooner than later. Though, i'm not sure how good they are going to be fundamentally good in the post as far as post moves, touch and establishing position. They are probably going to be flawed in that regard.

That brings me to what you said, Centers are getting weaker and they also not taught how to defend the post very well. Zizic has a chance to really punish those teams that don't have a very strong front court and the teams that switch a lot. The combination of Sexton and Zizic should make it very interesting in who teams decide to defend the PnR. Bigs nowadays have no idea how to attack a switch properly or establish maintain a good post position for that matter. Zizic does both at an elite level.

He is a true Center and he needs to embrace it. I believe he already has midrange J, but extending it even further and trusting his mid range and using it should be his next step, but that does not mean he should ditch his post game and inside game. That should be his go to move and he should punish teams often and early.

Zizic should also work on his ability to elevate when he crashes the boards. I thin that limits him as an offensive rebounder. If he improves on that, the sky is the limit for him as a rebounder. His frame will allow him to become a real physical force.

As for Nance, should work on his jumper day and night. But similar thing applies to him , I don't want him to ditch his screen and roll ability. Next step should be freedom to shoot, handle the ball and pass.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I like having both of them at the 5. Nance can start and against the teams that don't have a center to punish him inside, but do have shooting that would punish Zizic outside, Larry gets more minutes. Otherwise, Zizic gets more minutes. Being able to match up like that is a good problem to have. Unfortunately, I would bet large amounts of money that Tristan Thompson is the starting center on opening day. I would have him in street clothes, but I'm not the coach of the Cavs.

 

[TitleTown]

There is functional differences between PFs and Cs nowadays regardless of Nance...let's start with that. Unless you think Embiid and Saric are a like, or you think that Steven Adams should be called a PF, or Cousins, or this guy that was drafted 1st, Ayton...he is definitely a Center.

None of this ACTUALLY explains the difference between PF and C. All that you did was simply list some players. You can't actually provide me with functional differences between PFs and Cs because there are none in the modern NBA.

And i there is no difference between PFs and Cs, the you might as well tell me that Zizic has no place in the NBA and the game passed him by, cause he is certainly not a PF.

Yes, Zizic belongs in the modern NBA (or, he looks like he does so far), and this has nothing to do with whether or not you think he's a center.

And by saying that Nance has to play PF basically means that he has to develop some kind of range to be the iong term starter as a PF. That's the requisite.

No, that's not just true of Nance. That is true of all players in the modern NBA---including Zizic. You're only saying this about Nance because you don't want Zizic pushed out of the rotation. I agree. But this has nothing to do with PF/C differences.

Still, even now, Nance and Zizic can play together and be very effective, but I wouldn't want them playing full time together unless Nance developed his range.

Again, this has nothing to do with fake differences between PF/C. It's simply a fact of the modern NBA that you cannot have 2 big men on the court who do not have range outside of the paint.

 

[czvo]

The problem with assuming big centers will return is that it ignores just how good a true low post center has to be to actually be worth putting on the floor. Can Zizic take advantage of size mismatches? Sure. But he has to be ridiculously efficient to make his shortcomings on the other end worth it.

So while you may see low post threats return, that will no longer be the entirety of their game they'll have to be able to step out and shoot when open and switch on to guards defensively. Zizic may be able to do the former. I don't know that he can do the latter.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

None of this ACTUALLY explains the difference between PF and C. All that you did was simply list some players. You can't actually provide me with functional differences between PFs and Cs because there are none in the modern NBA.

Oh man.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN FUNCTION MAN. You can't honestly tell me that there is none in the NBA. There are teams that have real centers that can be easily distinguished from their frontcourt parter, and there are teams there the difference is not as apparent. This generalization that PFs and C are functionally the same in the NBA nowadays is flat out wrong.

The function starts with the difference in physical profile and that affects several different things on the court that separates the PF from the C.
Centers on average are worse shooters than PFs from beyond the arc. Centers are on average bigger and longer than PFs. Centers on average record more blocks than PFs. Centers finish on much higher efficiency inside than PFs. Centers are better screeners and spend less time on the perimeter. Centers on average record more rebounds than PFs. I goes on and on, and you want to tell me that there is not a functional difference? Not to mention that you can distinguish a Center from a Power Forward just by looking at him..the difference in gait is obvious.

Yes, Zizic belongs in the modern NBA (or, he looks like he does so far), and this has nothing to do with whether or not you think he's a center.

What? Zizic can not play the 4, he is a Center.

No, that's not just true of Nance. That is true of all players in the modern NBA---including Zizic. You're only saying this about Nance because you don't want Zizic pushed out of the rotation. I agree. But this has nothing to do with PF/C differences.

NO, it doesn't. Zizic has a lot of things to fall back on and excel at whether he develops range or not. He is bigger and stronger which means he can bang and dominate centers as well as rebound with the best of them, he is an elite finisher and scorer in the post which is huge in the new NBA where teams switch so much, and he can protect the rim.

Zizic doesn't have to extend his range. He gets tons of volume on elite efficiency playing close to the rim.

Cousins had to extend his range as he was simply not effective enough playing his old school game. His eFG%, TS% and OBPM skyrocketed once he started shooting a high volume on 3's because his 2PT% was just too low and ineffective.
Same thing applies to all the weak inside scorers that are weakly built like Thon Maker, Zach Collins, etc that had to develop that range to counter their inefficiencies as an inside scorers. Even then, they are bad on offense because they are just not efficient enough from 3 and from the floor, and some are too weak physically to battle real centers and rebound like this Somalian Thon, so their defensive impact isn't necessarily there.

It's all about efficiency and volume, and I don't care if it comes from 3 or from 2. Zizic's lack of range right now isn't going to clog your lane or fuck up your D, it's the opposite. You can't have a good offense without good screening, rolling ability and ability to finish inside. You only need one spacer...either at the 4 or the 5; one elite roll man/post up player and one elite shooter spotting up. That's it. Some players have to adjust, and some players don't...some succeed at that, and some don't.

Zizic as a rookie scored 20 points per 36 on .749 TS% and .732 eFG%. He only shot 4.9 FTA PER 36. There is absolutely no reason to take away possessions from Zizic inside the arc in favor of shooting 3s. You want a player that shoots FTs that well and crashes the boards so well to battle inside, and in time he will average a shit ton of FTs. If you tell him to hang out on the perimeter his overall TS% will simply fall.

I'll give you Brook Lopez who is a poor man's Zizic as an example; The guy's efficiency went down once he ditched his inside game in favour of a 3pt shot. His FT rate, his OREB rate and his efficiency all fell off and he wasn't even close to being as efficient as Zizic is from inside the 3pt line. He was merely a .56% scorer from 2FG...him shooting 6 attempts per 36 on .345 did nothing for him as far as an individual player. And that guy was as soft as it gets, he was a shit rebounder to begin with and wasn't nearly as efficient as Zizic, so extending his range was a more logical choice. But you would be absolutely insane to waste 6 possessions of .732% in favour of .345% from 3...

- Nance needs to extend his range because I can't view him as a starter at C, but I can view him as a Starter as a PF if he develops even a 3pt shot from the corners. What's so hard to get? He is as tall as Cedi Osman, and you want to tell me that he can play 82 games playing the C position?

Again, this has nothing to do with fake differences between PF/C. It's simply a fact of the modern NBA that you cannot have 2 big men on the court who do not have range outside of the paint.

Lol...what does that has to do with anything? of course that they shouldn't play full time together because their skill set is that of a C. The only reason Nance is pegged as a Center right now is because he lacks range! The whole reason for us playing Nance at C is because you need shooting at the 4, and you don't need it at the 5. That just proves that there is a functional difference in position and that just touches the aspect of shooting only, without even factoring the difference in size, ability to finish inside, screen, protect the rim, etc.

I think you proved my whole point tbh.The fact that the NBA is aspiring to switch into positionless basketball, doesn't mean that this is what actually happens in the NBA. Your argument was flawed to begin with...and I simply don't get it.

Peace and love.

@Nathan S @priceFTW we need the jury.

 

[TitleTown]

Oh man.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN FUNCTION MAN. You can't honestly tell me that there is none in the NBA. There are teams that have real centers that can be easily distinguished from their frontcourt parter, and there are teams there the difference is not as apparent. This generalization that PFs and C are functionally the same in the NBA nowadays is flat out wrong.

The function starts with the difference in physical profile and that affects several different things on the court that separates the PF from the C.
Centers on average are worse shooters than PFs from beyond the arc. Centers are on average bigger and longer than PFs. Centers on average record more blocks than PFs. Centers finish on much higher efficiency inside than PFs. Centers are better screeners and spend less time on the perimeter. Centers on average record more rebounds than PFs. I goes on and on, and you want to tell me that there is not a functional difference? Not to mention that you can distinguish a Center from a Power Forward just by looking at him..the difference in gait is obvious.




What? Zizic can not play the 4, he is a Center.



NO, it doesn't. Zizic has a lot of things to fall back on and excel at whether he develops range or not. He is bigger and stronger which means he can bang and dominate centers as well as rebound with the best of them, he is an elite finisher and scorer in the post which is huge in the new NBA where teams switch so much, and he can protect the rim.

Zizic doesn't have to extend his range. He gets tons of volume on elite efficiency playing close to the rim.

Cousins had to extend his range as he was simply not effective enough playing his old school game. His eFG%, TS% and OBPM skyrocketed once he started shooting a high volume on 3's because his 2PT% was just too low and ineffective.
Same thing applies to all the weak inside scorers that are weakly built like Thon Maker, Zach Collins, etc that had to develop that range to counter their inefficiencies as an inside scorers. Even then, they are bad on offense because they are just not efficient enough from 3 and from the floor, and some are too weak physically to battle real centers and rebound like this Somalian Thon, so their defensive impact isn't necessarily there.

It's all about efficiency and volume, and I don't care if it comes from 3 or from 2. Zizic's lack of range right now isn't going to clog your lane or fuck up your D, it's the opposite. You can't have a good offense without good screening, rolling ability and ability to finish inside. You only need one spacer...either at the 4 or the 5; one elite roll man/post up player and one elite shooter spotting up. That's it. Some players have to adjust, and some players don't...some succeed at that, and some don't.

Zizic as a rookie scored 20 points per 36 on .749 TS% and .732 eFG%. He only shot 4.9 FTA PER 36. There is absolutely no reason to take away possessions from Zizic inside the arc in favor of shooting 3s. You want a player that shoots FTs that well and crashes the boards so well to battle inside, and in time he will average a shit ton of FTs. If you tell him to hang out on the perimeter his overall TS% will simply fall.

I'll give you Brook Lopez who is a poor man's Zizic as an example; The guy's efficiency went down once he ditched his inside game in favour of a 3pt shot. His FT rate, his OREB rate and his efficiency all fell off and he wasn't even close to being as efficient as Zizic is from inside the 3pt line. He was merely a .56% scorer from 2FG...him shooting 6 attempts per 36 on .345 did nothing for him as far as an individual player. And that guy was as soft as it gets, he was a shit rebounder to begin with and wasn't nearly as efficient as Zizic, so extending his range was a more logical choice. But you would be absolutely insane to waste 6 possessions of .732% in favour of .345% from 3...

- Nance needs to extend his range because I can't view him as a starter at C, but I can view him as a Starter as a PF if he develops even a 3pt shot from the corners. What's so hard to get? He is as tall as Cedi Osman, and you want to tell me that he can play 82 games playing the C position?



Lol...what does that has to do with anything? of course that they shouldn't play full time together because their skill set is that of a C. The only reason Nance is pegged as a Center right now is because he lacks range! The whole reason for us playing Nance at C is because you need shooting at the 4, and you don't need it at the 5. That just proves that there is a functional difference in position and that just touches the aspect of shooting only, without even factoring the difference in size, ability to finish inside, screen, protect the rim, etc.

I think you proved my whole point tbh.The fact that the NBA is aspiring to switch into positionless basketball, doesn't mean that this is what actually happens in the NBA. Your argument was flawed to begin with...and I simply don't get it.

Peace and love.

@Nathan S @priceFTW we need the jury.

Well, by that definition, the Center position no longer fits the modern NBA. If Zizic can't extend his range, and if he can't defend more than 2 positions, then he's not a fit in the NBA long term.

So, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Well, by that definition, the Center position no longer fits the modern NBA. If Zizic can't extend his range, and if he can't defend more than 2 positions, then he's not a fit in the NBA long term.

So, we'll agree to disagree.

You are just ignoring everything I said. I put in the effort and you write this weird conclusion that makes no sense???????????

The facts say that Zizic doesn't have to do anything different on offense. This doesn't mean that he doesn't have to improve his D on the other side of the ball. I'm well aware that Zizic has to guard his position well(and he does) as well as be able to switch some and cover more ground as a help defender.

Buuuut, at the same time I'm also aware that there is a franchise level offensive talent in Jokic that is twice as bad on defense. What matters is how good can Zizic become offensively that in time his defense won't matter that much. And to be honest, Zizic was a good defender in europe and has the tools to be above average to good on that end.

 

[Nathan S]

Oh man.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN FUNCTION MAN. You can't honestly tell me that there is none in the NBA. There are teams that have real centers that can be easily distinguished from their frontcourt parter, and there are teams there the difference is not as apparent. This generalization that PFs and C are functionally the same in the NBA nowadays is flat out wrong.

The function starts with the difference in physical profile and that affects several different things on the court that separates the PF from the C.
Centers on average are worse shooters than PFs from beyond the arc. Centers are on average bigger and longer than PFs. Centers on average record more blocks than PFs. Centers finish on much higher efficiency inside than PFs. Centers are better screeners and spend less time on the perimeter. Centers on average record more rebounds than PFs. I goes on and on, and you want to tell me that there is not a functional difference? Not to mention that you can distinguish a Center from a Power Forward just by looking at him..the difference in gait is obvious.




What? Zizic can not play the 4, he is a Center.



NO, it doesn't. Zizic has a lot of things to fall back on and excel at whether he develops range or not. He is bigger and stronger which means he can bang and dominate centers as well as rebound with the best of them, he is an elite finisher and scorer in the post which is huge in the new NBA where teams switch so much, and he can protect the rim.

Zizic doesn't have to extend his range. He gets tons of volume on elite efficiency playing close to the rim.

Cousins had to extend his range as he was simply not effective enough playing his old school game. His eFG%, TS% and OBPM skyrocketed once he started shooting a high volume on 3's because his 2PT% was just too low and ineffective.
Same thing applies to all the weak inside scorers that are weakly built like Thon Maker, Zach Collins, etc that had to develop that range to counter their inefficiencies as an inside scorers. Even then, they are bad on offense because they are just not efficient enough from 3 and from the floor, and some are too weak physically to battle real centers and rebound like this Somalian Thon, so their defensive impact isn't necessarily there.

It's all about efficiency and volume, and I don't care if it comes from 3 or from 2. Zizic's lack of range right now isn't going to clog your lane or fuck up your D, it's the opposite. You can't have a good offense without good screening, rolling ability and ability to finish inside. You only need one spacer...either at the 4 or the 5; one elite roll man/post up player and one elite shooter spotting up. That's it. Some players have to adjust, and some players don't...some succeed at that, and some don't.

Zizic as a rookie scored 20 points per 36 on .749 TS% and .732 eFG%. He only shot 4.9 FTA PER 36. There is absolutely no reason to take away possessions from Zizic inside the arc in favor of shooting 3s. You want a player that shoots FTs that well and crashes the boards so well to battle inside, and in time he will average a shit ton of FTs. If you tell him to hang out on the perimeter his overall TS% will simply fall.

I'll give you Brook Lopez who is a poor man's Zizic as an example; The guy's efficiency went down once he ditched his inside game in favour of a 3pt shot. His FT rate, his OREB rate and his efficiency all fell off and he wasn't even close to being as efficient as Zizic is from inside the 3pt line. He was merely a .56% scorer from 2FG...him shooting 6 attempts per 36 on .345 did nothing for him as far as an individual player. And that guy was as soft as it gets, he was a shit rebounder to begin with and wasn't nearly as efficient as Zizic, so extending his range was a more logical choice. But you would be absolutely insane to waste 6 possessions of .732% in favour of .345% from 3...

- Nance needs to extend his range because I can't view him as a starter at C, but I can view him as a Starter as a PF if he develops even a 3pt shot from the corners. What's so hard to get? He is as tall as Cedi Osman, and you want to tell me that he can play 82 games playing the C position?



Lol...what does that has to do with anything? of course that they shouldn't play full time together because their skill set is that of a C. The only reason Nance is pegged as a Center right now is because he lacks range! The whole reason for us playing Nance at C is because you need shooting at the 4, and you don't need it at the 5. That just proves that there is a functional difference in position and that just touches the aspect of shooting only, without even factoring the difference in size, ability to finish inside, screen, protect the rim, etc.

I think you proved my whole point tbh.The fact that the NBA is aspiring to switch into positionless basketball, doesn't mean that this is what actually happens in the NBA. Your argument was flawed to begin with...and I simply don't get it.

Peace and love.

@Nathan S @priceFTW we need the jury.

Regardless of position, a player can be productive without a 3-point shot if he checks the following boxes:

a. Can score efficiently inside the arc

b. Can handle the ball and pass at an above-average level

c. Is a plus defender

Most bigs can check off box c. simply by being big. Nance certainly checks that box, and Zizic probably will too in time. Most bigs also check box a. Zizic shows more potential here than Nance, but Nance does a pretty good job too. Not many bigs check box b., but Nance and Zizic both have shown some potential in this area too.

After that, you get to the question of "fit." Here things seem dicey for the potential Nance-Zizic pairing, IMO. There's good reason to believe that players with diverse skillsets compliment each other better than players with similar skillsets, so I'd favor a two-man frontcourt that offers an inside-outside threat over a Nance-Zizic frontcourt, assuming they're equally talented as individuals.

 

[TitleTown]

You are just ignoring everything I said. I put in the effort and you write this weird conclusion that makes no sense???????????

The facts say that Zizic doesn't have to do anything different on offense. This doesn't mean that he doesn't have to improve his D on the other side of the ball. I'm well aware that Zizic has to guard his position well(and he does) as well as be able to switch some and cover more ground as a help defender.

Buuuut, at the same time I'm also aware that there is a franchise level offensive talent in Jokic that is twice as bad on defense. What matters is how good can Zizic become offensively that in time his defense won't matter that much. And to be honest, Zizic was a good defender in europe and has the tools to be above average to good on that end.

You ignored my point entirely and then finished by saying it didn't make sense to you. I'm not talking about Zizic and Nance, but you seem obsessed with a simple point: Zizic doesn't have to change very much, but Nance does. I disagree.

In my opinion, Nance is much further along and is much closer to a modern NBA big man than Zizic at this point.

They both need to extend their range, but Nance can guard 1-5.

Are you happy now? We'll discuss this on your terms.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Regardless of position, a player can be productive without a 3-point shot if he checks the following boxes:

a. Can score efficiently inside the arc

b. Can handle the ball and pass at an above-average level

c. Is a plus defender

Most bigs can check off box c. simply by being big. Nance certainly checks that box, and Zizic probably will too in time. Most bigs also check box a. Zizic shows more potential here than Nance, but Nance does a pretty good job too. Not many bigs check box b., but Nance and Zizic both have shown some potential in this area too.

After that, you get to the question of "fit." Here things seem dicey for the potential Nance-Zizic pairing, IMO. There's good reason to believe that players with diverse skillsets compliment each other better than players with similar skillsets, so I'd favor a two-man frontcourt that offers an inside-outside threat over a Nance-Zizic frontcourt, assuming they're equally talented as individuals.

Okay, but this is not the debate. We are not talking about the potential or the fit of those players. We are debating whether there is a functional difference between a Center and a PF in the current NBA.

 

[CleveRocks]

The term center is limiting. Basically you call a guy a center when his primary role is rebounding, protecting the rim, and put backs. He is a good center when he can do those things and post up smaller guys. Used to be to even consider playing center you needed to be at least 250-260.

The first team I remember to really blur those lines was Detroit with the Wallaces. Rasheed was the taller guy, but had a much better offensive game, and a three ball, while Ben was power forward sized, but a physical bad ass who played brutal ball close to the rim and could not buy a basket outside 12 feet.

Then you have players like the Gasols who shoot outside as well as inside and you don't really know what you are looking at. Unibrow could be either one, but we call him a power forward because he has a broader range of skills than a center. I think the modern NBA is somewhat positionless, but you need at least one big guy (6'9+ 250+) that can battle inside, whatever you want to call them. Tristan is the only guy we have that really fits that description. I like what I saw from Zizic, but I am a doubter until I see him bang with some beef.

 

[Nathan S]

Okay, but this is not the debate. We are not talking about the potential or the fit of those players. We are debating whether there is a functional difference between a Center and a PF in the current NBA.

Don't really think so. Typical PF skills like ballhandling, passing, and outside shooting aren't less valuable at the center position, they're just harder to find. Similarly, typical center skills like elite rebounding and shot blocking aren't less valuable at the PF position, just harder to find. There's nothing to be gained by favoring players who fit traditional positional stereotypes. That's the great thing about basketball...many ways to be a great player, many ways to build a great team.