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Open Discussion (Cavs + related issues)

Discussion in 'Cavs Talk' started by wuck, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. kookoo

    kookoo Good 'Ole J.R

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    Anything to get away from this terrible Cavs season...
     
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  2. Jake

    Jake Offensive Specialist

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    The Cavs getting ripped all over the sports shows today. Even those who recently felt we still had the east locked up now don't think that will happen (me neither). LeBron ranting in that clip yesterday was a bad look too. Classless. PG isn't coming here, why would he want to join this mess. IT won't be fixing much, you'll see. Tonight in Indy will be another disaster. wtf.
     
  3. Gus Zing

    Gus Zing NBA Starter

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  4. TitleTown

    TitleTown All-Star

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    PG was NEVER coming here. We had once chance to land him via trade, but OKC beat us to it. That ship has LONG sailed.
     
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  5. KevinLoveFan

    KevinLoveFan Rookie

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  6. KevinLoveFan

    KevinLoveFan Rookie

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    Seeing lots of talk here on where most of the blame should go, and I have to side with those who think Lue is the main problem.

    Here's why.

    The Cavs have incredible talent. Virtually any mediocre coach could take them deep into the playoffs. But right now, they can't afford a mediocre coach. The Celtics and Raptors have improved, and the Warriors are as good as ever.

    Lue is marginally better than Blatt, IMO, and actually inferior as a defensive coach. He helped the offense a little by incorporating more pace and more cuts, but now we aren't even seeing that anymore.

    His substitutions and starting lineups are frequently suspect. He stubbornly sticks to the same starting lineup every night even when the match-ups aren't favorable. He plays LeBron too much -- sometimes even for the entire first quarter, takes Love out in crucial parts of the 4th when he is needed for the team's offensive spacing, fails to incorporate Channing Frye when he's been much more efficient for us than Tristan Thompson, continues to play a largely useless J.R. Smith too many minutes, and so forth.

    The lack of practicing doesn't help rhythm and execution, either. You don't have to be Pat Riley and run your guys into the ground, but they still need SOME practice to refine their sets, ESPECIALLY when players are needed to be incorporated after injuries. Isaiah looks lost out there; no surprise given how little time he's gotten to play with the other guys.

    Most of this is on Lue, period. Don't slam LeBron, don't slam Love, don't slam any of the players out of context and point to any one of them as the main problem. Few casual fans understand just how important a coach and a system are to team success, but I point you to Gregg Popovich, Brad Stevens, Steve Kerr, and the success they have no matter what their units are. These coaches are systems geniuses who know how to make the best use out of their players (Stephen Curry was merely a very good player for years until Kerr vaunted him to mega-status with his brilliant offensive scheme, for example, and Popovich's success with just about everything should be apparent to everyone).

    Cavs don't have that.

    And that's why they're still in this rut.
     
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  7. Jake

    Jake Offensive Specialist

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    Seen this article over on CavsNation about LeBron and it's something I hadn't thought about. I pasted most of it below in quotes. Sort of hoping LBJ hasn't got to this point of giving up on the season already. With all the other dead weight we have that'd be the kiss of death for sure.
    See below -

    "According to Joe Vardon of Cleveland.com, some of James’ teammates have begun to complain that the four-time NBA MVP has recently been slowing down the game with his ball-stopping.

    “Players have grumbled that James has slowed the ball movement, holding onto the ball until he sees an ‘assist’ pass, rather than moving it quickly,” he wrote.

    If Cavs head coach Tyronn Lue has noticed a similar trend, it’s possible that he was referring to James when he told members of the press that his players need to abandon any personal agendas that might be getting in the way of collective success.

    “I never really get concerned,” Lue said after the Cavs loss to the Toronto Raptors. “We’ve got to be better. We know that. But until we play better defensively, I think offensively sharing the basketball, everyone on the same page, and if guys have agendas, we’ve got to get rid of our agendas and play the right way.”

    Perhaps James is beginning to worry about his team’s chances of winning an NBA championship this season and has decided to pursue personal glory. Perhaps he sees his team’s weaknesses and is trying to overcome them with his own masterful play. Whatever the cause, it seems his teammates are less than thrilled about it."​
     
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  8. inliner311

    inliner311 In the Rotation

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    I feel like this team has too much depth for it's own good. Guys aren't getting their usual minutes and it's messing with how they play. To balance all the minutes Lue has to be too methodical with the distribution.

    It's only going to get worse when Rose and Shump are back. Too many guys with similar talent levels that deserve minutes. It's might be time for the front office to move multiple players to give up depth for a upgrade in talent in the rotation. The 5th player to the 14th player on this roster are so similar in talent level that we could really get rid of 5-6 players and bring in 2 guys who are slightly better while being alot better off overall.
     
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  9. GOATLBJ23

    GOATLBJ23 Rookie

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    If anyone watched the first quarter tonight, the Cavs played at such a high pace defensively, running the break and getting easy offence. They should be forced to play this way at all times on the court and if not they will get subbed.
    That's how they can take advantage of their depth but Ty Lue is too scared to coach!!!
     
  10. fan0283

    fan0283 In the Rotation

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    This recent thing about LeBron being a ballstopper highlights the evolution of the game.

    Since the early 2000s the nba was all about finding the next Jordan. This spawned a host of scorers looking to do damage mostly from ISO situations (Kobe/AI types). Then came the score/assist ISO wing types like LeBron and Wade to a lesser extent. They weren't the first of their kind but repopularised the role. They became the new gold standard for franchise player unselfishness.

    Recently we've had Curry/Durant types whom although post a high usage do a lot of their damage within the context of free flowing, highly effective ball movement systems.

    LeBron is still better than these guys but he'll have to scale back on some of his tendencies if he's to hang with this lot through his old age
     
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  11. don2x

    don2x situational stopper

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    I agree. The game has evolved. Teams that plays faster, wins the game.
    Look how even Orlando, New Jersey and Denver. They don't have an iso dominating player but when they're shooting well they can win games.
    Teams have followed the blueprint of Warriors strategy. While the Cavs still rely on not just one but three iso players LeBron, Wade and IT.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. Rikkk

    Rikkk Rookie

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    Are we tanking or what?
    After 4 months we are still starting with Love as a center, JR and Crowder...unbelievable.
     
  13. cavsfever

    cavsfever All-Star

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    The bolded is just completely wrong. The Cavs have *one* incredible talent right now, and that's Lebron. Then we have a good talent, Kevin Love. (The jury is out on IT until we see how he recovers, so leaving him out here).

    After those two? We have nobody who would be a starter on a good playoff team! 36 year old DWade (he turns 36 this week) can no longer handle starters minutes and although he is great at maximizing what talent he has left, has completely lost his athleticism. TT is basically a bench energy guy roleplayer and has declined some in any case. Jae Crowder could work in a great system with a great coach, but as we are seeing this year, talent-wise he is a bench role player. Jeff Green is Jeff Green -- good player but inconsistent, been some years since he started. Kyle Korver -- another 36 year old who is on the downside of his career, although he's still good off the bench. JR Smith has fallen off a cliff. Shump is Shump. Calderon is Calderon. etc.

    This team has an unusual number of good bench role players, but without Kyrie it's obvious what a talent gap we have at the starter level. I mean, how many times have you looked at crunch time lineups for this team and said to yourself, Jesus fucking Christ, two or three of these guys shouldn't even be on the court!

    Until IT comes fully back we have three positions (PG, SG, and center) where we are at a huge, massive disadvantage every night. Even if we get back last year's IT, we will still be at a massive *defensive* disadvantage at all three of those positions, although our offense should hopefully be humming.

    This is a poorly constructed roster with major talent deficiencies and Lebron serves to conceal that. If you want to blame someone for our sitution, I would blame the FRONT OFFICE, which constructed the roster, before I would blame Lue.


    Totally agree that Lue is not at the level of Stevens, Popovich, Kerr. But talent is the most important factor, it is way more important than coaching. Stevens could never get by Lue as long as he was held back by starting guys like Crowder who got exposed in the playoffs. Lue beat Kerr before Kerr got Kevin Durant. (Blatt would have beat Kerr too if not for injuries).

    Even Popovich, who is still the best of the bunch -- with Kawhi Leonard injured the Spurs are right around our record, even though they have decent talent (Aldridge, Gasol, a bunch of very good role players like Green, Mills, Ginobli, etc.).
     
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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  14. cavsfever

    cavsfever All-Star

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    Good post. Even though Lebron is a score/assist wing he grew up with Jordan as his idol, and I've often thought the fact that he grew up watching the "ballstopper" era has held him back in some ways.

    But with that said, what those ball movement systems really need is *depth of talent* on a team, especially athletic talent who can keep up a high pace. If there's anything Lebron's teams have lacked it's depth of talent. This year's team has a deep bench but is old, unathletic, and as I said in my previous post just not all that good once you get past Lebron and Love.

    Once again, I would put it on the front office for not constructing the kind of team that would enable Lebron to better transition to a deep, effective ball movement team. Our failures in scouting and developing young players stands out here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  15. fan0283

    fan0283 In the Rotation

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    Yeah analytic thinking in the pre2000s was pretty low if all people took from watching Jordan's career was ISO dominance. He still played in the triangle system. Laimbeer alluded to the fact that they knew they had Jordan's number in the playoffs till he really learnt how to use his teammates to score.

    Lebron has shown he can do that but is yet to really commit to it consistently. Our front office has also shown an embarrassing naivety in its ability to construct championship rosters, specifically David Griffin who was so stupid he didn't think to adjust the roster to counter the Durant signing. He knew how to engineer creative trades but chanelled that creativity into recreating the mid2000s phoenix suns. I would personally have kept him because he was capable of undoing the mess he helped create
     
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