• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

The Military Thread

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
I will have to think about this more.. but here's some questions for you.. or anyone that may know.

1. Did the F-22 do any CV testing? I can't imagine it did just being an AF jet.. so that rules that out for the Navy. (If they did.. then depending on how far it got, you're probably looking at 5-10 years to be able to go on a carrier.) (I know you didn't suggest this in your post.. just a question for the group.)

2. I know the Navy required the marines to buy a certain amount of F-35's to get onboard with the idea. I'm sure that the costs go up astronomically if the AF fell out.

As far as I know no prototype was made. However, design reached an advanced stage and blueprints made. The Sea Raptor would have been a swept-wing fighter. It looks gorgeous:

F-22SeaRaptor_zpslvld76zv.jpg


There is an article on it from an Aussie site. Though it would take a decade to field if the line started up again, it seems it would completely outclass the F-35 in every way the moment it took off despite being a couple decades behind in development. Despite the unique issues a CV presents, I don't think it would be as difficult as one might think to build this as we now have the benefit of 20 years of Gen 5 stealth fighter development and operations. The F-35's sensor and networking systems have served as a test-bed for what the Sea Raptor would be equipped with and by 2027 many of the software issues should be smoothed out. The F-22's structural issues and their solutions would be able to serve as a guideline. Many of the lessons have already been learned to make this aircraft work.

"This is what one would call a classic capability bargain with superior cost benefit for all (…except any opposing threats, of course). You take an already outstanding aircraft, and make it even more effective with an investment that is a tiny fraction of the cost of developing a whole new aircraft type or, for that matter, the money that still needs to be spent on trying to get the F-35B/C to meet its already surpassed specification...

The F/A-22N Sea Raptor renders the F-35C CV completely redundant, as it will provide around three times the capability of the F-35C at similar unit procurement costs, with a twin engine airframe better suited to naval operations. This would permit cancellation of the F-35C, never a favourite with professional naval aviators. The funding reserved for around 400 F-35Cs would buy a similar number of F/A-22Ns, producing the same commonality and economy of scale effects seen when the Air Force adopted the F-4C/D, while the Navy and Marines flew the F-4B. Should the Marines be equipped with the F/A-22N rather than the planned F-35B STOVL JSF, the total build numbers for both services could be as high as 680 aircraft. The F/A-22N provides, inherently, if not subjected to client or contractor induced cost and capability creep, much higher cross-variant commonality than the F-35 JSF does, driving down production costs with increasing build numbers much more effectively."




http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230209-1.html

Designs for a CV of the YF-23 also reached an advanced stage. They look crazy.
 
Last edited:
It sounds interesting. Obviously too far down the rabbit hole at this point for anything to change. I actually think everyone dismissed a very important quote a few pages back from the Lockeed rep saying they were going to look to cut cost as much as possible. Even if Trump's ranting seemed crazy to some.. if it lowers the cost of the project at all, it ends up being a plus for the American people.

Anyways.. I think I've said this before on here. I like the idea of having the same airframe for all services. It makes maintenance and operations a lot more efficient and cost effective. The services hate to play nice with each other.
 
Second part:

Complex question. When it comes to prioritizing one service over the other, one has to first determine our most likely enemy. At present, the size of our Navy is adequate to protect our interests, project power and is more than enough to crush the ancient and rusting navy of the only near-peer adversary we have in Russia 10x over. China still lacks even a single viable Blue Water task force (it has a shitty incomplete Russian carrier and no clue how to conduct carrier operations) and won't for at least a decade. Moreover, the Japanese Navy by itself is more than enough to contain them. In terms of surface warfare we could defeat both Russia and Chy-nuh simultaneously with ease (and that isn't taking into account the formidable fleets of our close allies in the UK, France, Japan and Australia).

I disagree with a fair chunk of this, especially the analytical framework used for deciding whether our Navy is strong enough.

1. The Navy can't just look at the "most likely" enemy. Force planning has to look at multiple enemies given our status as an island nation, and the difficulty/impossibility of changing the force composition significantly within anything less than 5 years. It's the one branch that absolutely can never fall behind our potential foes. Further, the Navy must be able to maintain superiority in a conflict zone, while also maintaining substantial assets in other oceans.

2. I don't think it is currently adequate for power projection. For available power projection forces, you basically have to divide the size of the combat fleet (except subs) by 3, because for every ship at sea, there is generally one in port, and one in refit/overhaul. Take that number of ships, spread them around the world, and it just isn't enough. The most glaring example is a non-existent Sixth Fleet (Mediterranean), which consists of exactly one full-time ship. The rest of the "fleet" is task organized from Atlantic assets. But that means that in a crisis, we simply do not have adequate assets available in the Med itself.

Considering the volatility of the entire MENA region, I think that's a glaring, even dangerous, hole in our capabilities. Obviously, for things like Benghazi, the presence of a carrier group, or even an LHA or similar ships carrying Ospreys, Harriers, and/or helo assets, may have made an enormous difference. Moreover,, our enemies and potential enemies know of our lack of permanent presence in the Med, and can take advantage of it. A decent Med fleet, supported with a standard rotation of a battalion-based Marine Expeditionary Unit, not only gives us the ability to project power quickly into a volatile region, but also acts as a deterrent.

3. We can't really count on our allies. Most of them have somewhat limited blue-water capability of their own, relegating them generally just to regional duties. More importantly, counting on most of them to actually agree to doing what we want them to do at a given time, and on short notice, is probably not a good bet. Unless we're talking about a situation where the balloon goes up completely, and we're actually talking full-scale world war, having them commit outsets is going to take cajoling, negotiating, and compromising on mission, etc... And that cooperation is always going to be dependent upon what government happens to be in power at that time.

4. Comparing the size/strength of our Navy to the Russian or (particularly) Chinese fleet kind of misses the point on the role of the Navy. Yes, we'd certainly win a modern recasting of Jutland, Midway or Leyte Gulf if there was a massive fleet-to-fleet battle on the open ocean, but that's not a realistic scenario. Those two potential foes, particularly China, have more regional fleets, but that's all they really need. China doesn't need to battle us for control of the Atlantic -- all they want to do is be able to dominate the seas closer to home with a combination of sea and land-based assets, or at least neutralize our Fleet's ability to project power.

In other words, the mission of our Navy isn't just to maintain naval superiority. It is to maintain that superiority while also being able to provide force-multiplying air and bombardment assets to U.S. or allied troops. It is that naval superiority plus the ability to provide significant air support, guarantee seaborne supply routes and/or support a landing force, that is the complete mission.

5. Final point -- I think our Navy has been as big a deterrent to conventional mischief around the world as our nuke force has been to nuclear attacks. Our naval superiority, coupled with the tremendous independent strike power of our Navy, and our ability to project/support substantial ground forces, including substantial Marine units available on relatively short notice, likely has prevented a lot of real trouble. Absent clearly acknowledged/recognized naval superiority (including superiority over land-based airpower) and power projection capabilities, a Chinese invasion of Taiwan may already have happened. I think it impacts how our adversaries (particularly Iran) view us in the ME, and also positively affects the security of our diplomats and other Americans living overseas.

It also serves as a tremendous confidence-booster for American allies around the world, because our navy and the power projection/reinforcing potential it represents gives them confidence in American power.
 
Last edited:
It sounds interesting. Obviously too far down the rabbit hole at this point for anything to change. I actually think everyone dismissed a very important quote a few pages back from the Lockeed rep saying they were going to look to cut cost as much as possible. Even if Trump's ranting seemed crazy to some.. if it lowers the cost of the project at all, it ends up being a plus for the American people.

It's the gilding of the lily that runs up the cost so much for so many systems. Everyone wants their own pet capability included, and each of those usually has a ripple effect on what else the aircraft can do. That ratchets up the costs significantly.

What I suspect Lockheed may do is offer significant cost savings if reasonable compromises were made in terms of demanding capabilities. That might be a positive trade-off.

Anyways.. I think I've said this before on here. I like the idea of having the same airframe for all services. It makes maintenance and operations a lot more efficient and cost effective.

Well, there's the old saying about being the jack of all trades, and master of none. Also, there's this:

el_camino_1.jpg
 
Particularly for the Air Force, we already have a cheaper, more capable fighter for them. For the cost of cranking out the 1000 F-35As we should:

1) Restart the F-22 production line. It is in storage ready to go.
2) It is a proven weapon and most of the teething issues have been solved. New F-22s are FMC off the line. There is no gap in service coverage.
3) It would not cost too much (relatively speaking) to incorporate the best bits of the F-35, the sensor package, networking and battlespace management, into the F-22. Modify and upgrade to the F-22B.
4) Replace the majority of the F-15s with them.
5) Strengthen and modify and develop a A-22 CAS version. Probably best for attack missions in heavily defended air space.
6) Use the savings to develop a true replacement for the A-10 and Gen 6 air-superiority fighter for 2040.
7) Replace 33% of the F-16 fleet with F-35s. Find a Gen 4.5++ to fill out the other 66% to complement them.

Again, I claim no expertise in any of this -- I just don't follow it that closely. But from what I'm reading, I think that might be a more expensive option.

A major per-unit cost issue with the F-35 is the lower number being ordered. Ashton Carter said that a cost estimate of $135M was "not affordable", and that's led to fewer purchases, which increases the cost. According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know...) the flyaway cost for an F-22 is $150M. So how does that solve the cost problem?

It seems to me (again, no expertise here) that what you're proposing may be a variation on the idea of order/counter-order/disorder. You want to:

1) Restart the F-22 and work on a Navy MC variant;

2) Build enough F-35's to replace 1/3 of the F-16 fleet;

3) "Find" a Gen 4.5++ to fill replace the rest of the F-16 fleet.

By going back and reopening the F-22 line, then looking to develop a Navy/Marine Corps version, and then also maintaining some kind of F-35 line as well, while "finding" yet a third plane, aren't you going to be jacking up the per unit cost of all those airframes even higher?

This may be one of those situations where there is no good answer, and I'm staying out of the technical discussion you and @bcort are having because I feel I lack knowledge. But it seems to me that pursuing multiple, completely different production lines on very expensive aircraft is not a great solution.
 
Last edited:
So Chelsea (Bradley) Manning is getting out about 30 years before she was supposed to... Thoughts?
 
So Chelsea (Bradley) Manning is getting out about 30 years before she was supposed to... Thoughts?

People truly underestimate how easy it is to compromise informants and other sources. Anyone making a claim that no one died due to PVT Manning's actions are indulging in a very pleasant fiction.

That sentence was always going to be reduced but it disappoints me that it has been cut this short. Now Manning is free to be the darling of a number of misguided Lefties who do not have a real grasp of what he/she did and why it is very different than Snowden.
Obama was too generous.
 
FYI: McCain's White Paper on Defense Spending and Priorities (33 Pages):

"Reversing this budget-driven damage to our military must be a top priority for national leaders. President-elect Donald Trump has pledged to “fully eliminate the defense sequester” and “submit a new budget to rebuild our military.” This cannot happen soon enough. The damage that has been done to our military over the past eight years will not be reversed in one year. Just stemming the bleeding caused by recent budget cuts will take most of the next five years, to say nothing of the sustained increases in funding required thereafter."


http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...f-68ba5619e6d8/restoring-american-power-7.pdf
 
Military Professional Development Reading for the Day: A DoD study on historical Soviet methods and refined Russian techniques in its possible application against NATO's Northwestern flank.

The Northwestern TVD in Soviet Operational-Strategic Planning.
By Dr. Philip A. Petersen, PhD.

"Soviet, and now Russian, military doctrine is a highly developed discipline that constitutes a sophisticated framework for the examination of questions concerning military force employment and weapon systems development. It has been, and continues to be, formulated at the highest levels of political and military leadership, constituting that element of political strategy which concerns itself with those specific principles, methods, and forms of prepared for and waging war. Military doctrine provides both the accepted view on the nature of future conflicts, as well as guidance for the military to follow in preparing the armed forces for war. Thus, military doctrine is an expression of the political and military policy of the State, a directive of political strategy..."


http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading...viet Operational Strategic Planning 2014.pdf

@David. if you wish to learn more about Russian thinking.
 
Xz2g3Xr.jpg
Pictures like this are starting to pop up.. Hope these fucks are found and dealt with.
 
Xz2g3Xr.jpg
Pictures like this are starting to pop up.. Hope these fucks are found and dealt with.

For what? How?

Except dip-shit in uniform over there, no one is engaging in anything remotely illegal or incorrect.
 
For what? How?

Except dip-shit in uniform over there, no one is engaging in anything remotely illegal or incorrect.
That picture was pointing out the person in uniform.
 
That picture was pointing out the person in uniform.

Well, these people are just asking for a very stern .ppt training program to set them straight.

And of course the guy is a never deployed SPC. Probably the barracks lawyer to boot.

Edit: I recall 2008 was the year political participation had to be very carefully explained to our Soldiers. Even a bumper-sticker on Post might be considered an infraction. I had to be very careful when talking politics that year. Had to scrub my FB page.

I don't think many were dumb enough to march in a protest in uniform though, much less with their name tape on.
 
Last edited:
Good article from Foreign Policy.

How World War III Could Begin in Latvia

BY PAUL D. MILLER

"Four years ago, I predicted Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Here’s my next prediction, which by now will strike many people as obvious: The Baltics are next, and will pose one of President-elect Donald Trump’s first and greatest tests. It probably won’t take the form of an overt invasion.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has a clear goal and a grand strategy. But it’s not the most realists perceive. Some argue that he is driven by fundamentally rational, defensive goals: NATO expansion appeared threatening and Russia is pushing back. The West expanded its sphere of influence at Russia’s expense, and Russia is now retaliating. That’s why the “Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault,” according to John Mearsheimer.
As with most academic realist analysis, this is nonsense. Putin is not driven by cold calculations of rational self-interest, because no human is. We are not Vulcans. We are driven by our perception of self-interest as shaped and defined by our deeper presuppositions and beliefs — which is to say, our ideology or religion.

Latvians_zpsocecrkyp.jpg

The Latvian military is highly professional but hopelessly out-numbered. The nation would likely fall in hours.

Putin believes hegemony over Russia’s near-abroad is necessary for Russian security because of his beliefs about Russian nationhood and historical destiny. Putin (and, perhaps more so, his inner circle) isn’t merely nationalist. The Kremlin appears to be driven by peculiar form of Russian nationalism infused with religion, destiny, and messianism. In this narrative, Russia is the guardian of Orthodox Christianity and has a mission to protect and expand the faith. A truly rational Russia would not see NATO and European Union expansion as a threat, because the liberal order is open and inclusive and would actually augment Russia’s security and prosperity. But, for Putin and other Russians who see the world through the lens of Russian religious nationalism, the West is inherently a threat because of its degeneracy and globalism.

In this view, NATO is not the benign guarantor of liberal order in Europe, but the hostile agent of the degenerate West and the primary obstacle to Russian greatness. Thus, Putin’s grand strategy requires breaking NATO. Specifically, he must make the Article V mutual security guarantee meaningless. Putin has already succeeded in eroding NATO’s credibility. His last two targets, Georgia and Ukraine, were not NATO members, but in 2008 had been explicitly and publicly assured that they would be granted Membership Action Plans, the roadmap to membership. Russia clearly and publicly opposed any steps towards NATO membership for both countries — and then proceeded to invade them. Russia’s invasions of Georgia and Ukraine created disputed territories — South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Crimea — occupied by Russian soldiers. No country will ever join NATO while being partly occupied by Russia.

Putin now has the most favorable international environment since the end of the Cold War to continue Russian expansion. European unity is fractured. Alliance members are questioning the value of the mutual security pact. And the next American president seems openly favorable to Russia and ready to excuse Russia’s irresponsible behavior. Putin’s next step is more dangerous than the previous ones, because he is likely to move into the Baltics, which are NATO members. He will not send large formations of uniformed Russian soldiers over the international border — even the most cautious NATO members will not ignore an overt conventional invasion.

FinnAfghan_zpsalsmb0bg.jpg

Neutral Sweden, Finland and Ireland along with NATO members Norway, Denmark and the three Baltic states form the Nordic Battle Group. A Russian invasion of Latvia could not only bring NATO to war with Russia, but also neutral nations.

Instead, Putin will instigate an ambiguous militarized crisis using deniable proxies, probably in the next two years. Perhaps Russian-speaking Latvians or Estonians (a quarter of Latvians and Estonians are ethnically Russian) will begin rioting, protesting for their rights, claiming to be persecuted, asking for “international protection.” A suspiciously well armed and well trained “Popular Front for the Liberation of the Russian Baltics” will appear. A few high-profile assassinations and bombings bring the Baltics to the edge of civil war. A low-grade insurgency may emerge.

Russia will block all United Nations Security Council resolutions, but will offer its unilateral services as a peacekeeper. The North Atlantic Council will meet. Poland will lead the effort to invoke Article V, declare the Baltics under Russian attack, and rally collective defense against Russian aggression. The Germans and French will fiercely resist. Everyone will look to the United States to see which way the alliance leader tilts.

If the Alliance does not invoke Article V, NATO’s mutual security guarantee becomes functionally meaningless. No alliance member will put any faith in the treaty to guarantee it’s own defense against Russia in the future. The geopolitical clock will rewind to 1939. Some Eastern European states may choose to bandwagon with Russia. Others, starting with Poland, will begin arming to the teeth. Putin’s dream of a fractured West and an open field in Europe will be realized.

But if the Alliance does invoke Article V, it will be tantamount to a declaration of war by the West against Russia. And that’s when Trump will have to decide if the defense of Latvia is worth risking World War III."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/16...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

@Marcus, maybe a good topic to write about for OCS?
@David. A good article on why Trump's relationship, if any, with Russia is of great interest.
@bcort, just how lethal do you suppose Russian air-defences are these days? Are the S-400s and P-800s Oniks as good as the Russians claim? Given the cramped operating environment of the Baltic region, the giant Russian military presence in the Kaliningrad Oblast and an expected Russian occupation of Gotland and the Åland Islands in the event of war, how realistic is it to assume NATO can come to the rescue of the Baltic nations with substantial naval assets or sustain a long-term campaign in the region?
 
Last edited:
Good article from Foreign Policy.

How World War III Could Begin in Latvia

BY PAUL D. MILLER

"Four years ago, I predicted Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Here’s my next prediction, which by now will strike many people as obvious: The Baltics are next, and will pose one of President-elect Donald Trump’s first and greatest tests. It probably won’t take the form of an overt invasion.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has a clear goal and a grand strategy. But it’s not the most realists perceive. Some argue that he is driven by fundamentally rational, defensive goals: NATO expansion appeared threatening and Russia is pushing back. The West expanded its sphere of influence at Russia’s expense, and Russia is now retaliating. That’s why the “Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault,” according to John Mearsheimer.
As with most academic realist analysis, this is nonsense. Putin is not driven by cold calculations of rational self-interest, because no human is. We are not Vulcans. We are driven by our perception of self-interest as shaped and defined by our deeper presuppositions and beliefs — which is to say, our ideology or religion.

Latvians_zpsocecrkyp.jpg

The Latvian military is highly professional but hopelessly out-numbered. The nation would likely fall in hours.

Putin believes hegemony over Russia’s near-abroad is necessary for Russian security because of his beliefs about Russian nationhood and historical destiny. Putin (and, perhaps more so, his inner circle) isn’t merely nationalist. The Kremlin appears to be driven by peculiar form of Russian nationalism infused with religion, destiny, and messianism. In this narrative, Russia is the guardian of Orthodox Christianity and has a mission to protect and expand the faith. A truly rational Russia would not see NATO and European Union expansion as a threat, because the liberal order is open and inclusive and would actually augment Russia’s security and prosperity. But, for Putin and other Russians who see the world through the lens of Russian religious nationalism, the West is inherently a threat because of its degeneracy and globalism.

In this view, NATO is not the benign guarantor of liberal order in Europe, but the hostile agent of the degenerate West and the primary obstacle to Russian greatness. Thus, Putin’s grand strategy requires breaking NATO. Specifically, he must make the Article V mutual security guarantee meaningless. Putin has already succeeded in eroding NATO’s credibility. His last two targets, Georgia and Ukraine, were not NATO members, but in 2008 had been explicitly and publicly assured that they would be granted Membership Action Plans, the roadmap to membership. Russia clearly and publicly opposed any steps towards NATO membership for both countries — and then proceeded to invade them. Russia’s invasions of Georgia and Ukraine created disputed territories — South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Crimea — occupied by Russian soldiers. No country will ever join NATO while being partly occupied by Russia.

Putin now has the most favorable international environment since the end of the Cold War to continue Russian expansion. European unity is fractured. Alliance members are questioning the value of the mutual security pact. And the next American president seems openly favorable to Russia and ready to excuse Russia’s irresponsible behavior. Putin’s next step is more dangerous than the previous ones, because he is likely to move into the Baltics, which are NATO members. He will not send large formations of uniformed Russian soldiers over the international border — even the most cautious NATO members will not ignore an overt conventional invasion.

FinnAfghan_zpsalsmb0bg.jpg

Neutral Sweden, Finland and Ireland along with NATO members Norway, Denmark and the three Baltic states form the Nordic Battle Group. A Russian invasion of Latvia could not only bring NATO to war with Russia, but also neutral nations.

Instead, Putin will instigate an ambiguous militarized crisis using deniable proxies, probably in the next two years. Perhaps Russian-speaking Latvians or Estonians (a quarter of Latvians and Estonians are ethnically Russian) will begin rioting, protesting for their rights, claiming to be persecuted, asking for “international protection.” A suspiciously well armed and well trained “Popular Front for the Liberation of the Russian Baltics” will appear. A few high-profile assassinations and bombings bring the Baltics to the edge of civil war. A low-grade insurgency may emerge.

Russia will block all United Nations Security Council resolutions, but will offer its unilateral services as a peacekeeper. The North Atlantic Council will meet. Poland will lead the effort to invoke Article V, declare the Baltics under Russian attack, and rally collective defense against Russian aggression. The Germans and French will fiercely resist. Everyone will look to the United States to see which way the alliance leader tilts.

If the Alliance does not invoke Article V, NATO’s mutual security guarantee becomes functionally meaningless. No alliance member will put any faith in the treaty to guarantee it’s own defense against Russia in the future. The geopolitical clock will rewind to 1939. Some Eastern European states may choose to bandwagon with Russia. Others, starting with Poland, will begin arming to the teeth. Putin’s dream of a fractured West and an open field in Europe will be realized.

But if the Alliance does invoke Article V, it will be tantamount to a declaration of war by the West against Russia. And that’s when Trump will have to decide if the defense of Latvia is worth risking World War III."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/16...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

@Marcus, maybe a good topic to write about for OCS?
@David. A good article on why Trump's relationship, if any, with Russia is of great interest.
@bcort, just how lethal do you suppose Russian air-defences are these days? Are the S-400s and P-800s Oniks as good as the Russians claim? Given the cramped operating environment of the Baltic region, the giant Russian military presence in the Kaliningrad Oblast and an expected Russian occupation of Gotland and the Åland Islands in the event of war, how realistic is it to assume NATO can come to the rescue of the Baltic nations with substantial naval assets or sustain a long-term campaign in the region?

Will definitely keep this in mind, as I am interested to see how things play out, given the new administration's attitude towards not just Russia, but international federations (NATO, UN, etc.) as a whole.

Sadly, I think if we end up doing any essay writing here at OCS, it will probably end up being based on Once An Eagle. :( :chuckle:
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-14: "Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:14: " Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey."
Top