2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

I'd take Harden near the top. I'd take CP3 and Steph both over Westbrook.

If you give me a LeBron to start with, I'll take Kyrie over any of them.

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Agree, I'd take CP3 and Steph (whom I have no love for) over Westbrook all day. For all the talk about how Westbrook was outplaying Steph in the series, well, when it was over, that definitely wasn't the case.

I think Paul is too under appreciated. This notion he's a choker, or can't get it done in the playoffs is nonsense. He's 6th all-time in player efficiency in the playoffs. His numbers are pretty impressive and just his typical production. One guy can't do it all.

He's just had better teams in his way, with the exception of Houston, and he was the single player that didn't play bad. Everyone around him, including his coach, were awful.

If I'd trust any guard going into the playoffs first. It'd be Paul. Maybe Kyrie going forward but the sample size isn't big enough yet.

godfather said:

Agree, I'd take CP3 and Steph (whom I have no love for) over Westbrook all day. For all the talk about how Westbrook was outplaying Steph in the series, well, when it was over, that definitely wasn't the case.

I think Paul is too under appreciated. This notion he's a choker, or can't get it done in the playoffs is nonsense. He's 6th all-time in player efficiency in the playoffs. His numbers are pretty impressive and just his typical production. One guy can't do it all.

He's just had better teams in his way, with the exception of Houston, and he was the single player that didn't play bad. Everyone around him, including his coach, were awful.

If I'd trust any guard going into the playoffs first. It'd be Paul. Maybe Kyrie going forward but the sample size isn't big enough yet.

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Paul has been on some stacked teams, he's 4-8 in playoff series, has been a first round exit 4 times and has never made it out of the 2nd round. Three different years his team lost with home court (although he was injured the last time).

KI4MVP said:

Paul has been on some stacked teams, he's 4-8 in playoff series, has been a first round exit 4 times and has never made it out of the 2nd round. Three different years his team lost with home court (although he was injured the last time).

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So, you highlighted that I said he's not a choker. And you're pointing to his playoff record, to state he is a choker? I'm just assuming that since you highlighted that sentence.

And stacked teams? He's never been the top-2 seed in the West. The West is not exactly a cakewalk. He was often going against just better teams.

Paul's career numbers in the post-season. 21.0 ppg, 9.4 apg, TS% of .584 (higher than Kyrie's actually), and a BPM of 8.4 meaning his team definitely needed him on the floor.

Clearly, Paul has done his part, the others have let him down.

Not sure how anyone can look at those numbers, and go, wow, that won't cut it in the playoffs.

Winning and losing a series has more to do with one guy.

I think Chris Paul's biggest issue has been injuries to him and Blake it's like one of the two is always hurt

tonyn said:

I think Chris Paul's biggest issue has been injuries to him and Blake it's like one of the two is always hurt

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Basically this. It feels like each of the last 3 seasons he’s been injured during the pivotal playoff series.

shoes22 said:

Basically this. It feels like each of the last 3 seasons he’s been injured during the pivotal playoff series.

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CP3 was healthy in 2014 when the game 5 meltdown vs OKC occurred but he has been hurt (hammy, r hand) the last two playoff appearances.

Still a stud performer with some bad luck ala Tmac imo.

As dominant a player like Westbrook and Harden look at times, in the playoffs you need the guy who is going to get you the tough basket. Look at Harden and Westbrook's shooting percentages in the post-season. They drop off a cliff compared to the regular season.

Compared to Irving's, albeit a smaller sample size, he damn near hits on 45% of his three balls...that's stupid good, especially considering he averaged 4.5 attempts per game over the past two seasons.

What you need in the playoffs is players with balls. Players that trust their long-ball when the game is on the line. That's why Irving is the best of all the PG's in the playoffs (even looking at you little Curry) based on past performance. If you're down by two in the 4th and you need a big shot in crunch-time, Irving is your man, followed by Curry, Harden, Lillard, Paul, Thomas, and than Westbrook. As good as Russ is, he is as streaky as they come when shooting mid to long-range.

godfather said:

So, you highlighted that I said he's not a choker. And you're pointing to his playoff record, to state he is a choker? I'm just assuming that since you highlighted that sentence.

And stacked teams? He's never been the top-2 seed in the West. The West is not exactly a cakewalk. He was often going against just better teams.

Paul's career numbers in the post-season. 21.0 ppg, 9.4 apg, TS% of .584 (higher than Kyrie's actually), and a BPM of 8.4 meaning his team definitely needed him on the floor.

Clearly, Paul has done his part, the others have let him down.

Not sure how anyone can look at those numbers, and go, wow, that won't cut it in the playoffs.

Winning and losing a series has more to do with one guy.

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when you are supposed to be the best at your position, which Paul was considered to be for years, the responsibility for winning and losing falls on your shoulders. And he was a 2nd round exit as the 2 seed in 2007-08 and a stacked Hornets team, losing game 7 at home.

I'm not sure why we're talking about Chris Paul in the Kyrie Irving thread, though. I'll take Kyrie 10 times out of 10 over Paul, especially as a teammate of LeBron James. There's actually not another player in the league I'd take over Kyrie for this team. He showed why in the NBA finals.

KI4MVP said:

I'm not sure why we're talking about Chris Paul in the Kyrie Irving thread, though. I'll take Kyrie 10 times out of 10 over Paul, especially as a teammate of LeBron James. There's actually not another player in the league I'd take over Kyrie for this team. He showed why in the NBA finals.

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Yeah it really depends on the criteria we're talking about.
On this team and as an on-court teammate of LeBron James, I'd take Kyrie. I'd also take Kyrie going forward, obviously.

But if I was building a team without LeBron, and I had to choose between Kyrie and Paul to be that team's best player, I'd take Paul.

shoes22 said:

Yeah it really depends on the criteria we're talking about.
On this team and as an on-court teammate of LeBron James, I'd take Kyrie. I'd also take Kyrie going forward, obviously.

But if I was building a team without LeBron, and I had to choose between Kyrie and Paul to be that team's best player, I'd take Paul.

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Kyrie is going to have a vastly better career than Paul. Kyrie will win league MVP and/or Finals MVP some day. He's playing at MVP level the past 20 or so games and was easily the 2nd best player in the finals.

gourimoko said:

Just wanted to point something out..

Irving is posting these phenomenal stats without the benefit of getting calls from refs.

Kyrie pre-ASG FTr = .234
Kyrie post-ASG FTr = .287 (this is low relatively speaking)

Irving is getting nowhere NEAR the calls that Thomas, Harden, Wall, Westbrook and many many other PGs in the league are getting.

To give you an idea, Thomas has an FTr of .439; Westbrook .444; and Harden .588 (this is criminal).

When you account for shooting fouls drawn, you can see just how efficient Irving is at scoring when refs don't hand out "superstar calls." This is one of the many reasons Irving is often regarded as being so good in the playoffs -- because in the playoffs these calls are less of a factor. As an example, in last years playoffs, Westbrook drew a .356 FTr; whereas this season that's been bumped up to .588 (which really goes back to my point about the way in which free throws are called; statistically, one can infer that refs are controlling the pace and competitiveness of games by dishing out FTAs as a means of adjusting for certain factors).

tl;dr, The NBA giveth, and the NBA taketh away... but yes, Irving's stats are doubly impressive given he's not on the list of players that are getting the benefit of every whistle.

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check your PM

shoes22 said:

But if I was building a team without LeBron, and I had to choose between Kyrie and Paul to be that team's best player, I'd take Paul.

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Even with Paul turning 32 this Summer?

KI4MVP said:

when you are supposed to be the best at your position, which Paul was considered to be for years, the responsibility for winning and losing falls on your shoulders.

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You know, I was thinking about something like this the other day...the pass first, double-digit assist, floor general, good defensive superstar PGs that people fall in love with all the time...CP3, John Wall types...

I cannot remember the last time one of those players (as the best player) led their team to a Championship. Isiah Thomas?

It was just an epiphany I had, that those players have not led their team to a title in my lifetime. Was a fascinating realization. Makes you wonder why people only love those types of PGs when they don't lead their teams to Championships, or even make The Finals.

Really, the only PG at all that has won a title as the team's best player since Isiah is Curry...and he let a role player win Finals MVP Not to mention if not for our injuries...you get the point.

TLDR; It's really hard to win a Championship with a PG as your best player and I'll never understand the obsession with the traditional PG.

KI4MVP said:

Kyrie is going to have a vastly better career than Paul. Kyrie will win league MVP and/or Finals MVP some day. He's playing at MVP level the past 20 or so games and was easily the 2nd best player in the finals.

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I think it is fair and 100% justifiable to say he was the second best player in the entire playoffs, either conference. The Finals was really just the cherry on top.

Not only did he have ridiculous numbers, but he hit big shots and even had big defensive stops. The Detroit sweep ended with Reggie Jackson going one-on-one against Kyrie and getting a terrible look. He also had that back-breaker corner 3 off the inbounds pass from Delly.

He had 30/9 in the close-out game at Toronto in the ECF, hitting all kinds of daggers.

KI4MVP said:

Kyrie is going to have a vastly better career than Paul. Kyrie will win league MVP and/or Finals MVP some day. He's playing at MVP level the past 20 or so games and was easily the 2nd best player in the finals.

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Chris Paul, IMO, has been the best point guard of this generation.

Outside of scoring, I can't think of a single thing Kyrie even does that's remotely as good as Paul. He's got a lot of catching up to do if he's going to be 'vastly' superior to him.

Unless you're just measuring better careers by titles, awards, etc, but better as in player? Because Kyrie has not even come close to being actually better than a Chris Paul in his prime, yet.

And for Kyrie to actually win MVP. He's really go to have improve dramatically in a few areas. Even if he does, winning it is pretty hard in this league. That's a bold claim to make, but he's definitely going to have to become a better defender.

Just average would do.

Or, and maybe more importantly become more of an impact player with assists ala like a Harden and Westbrook, which might never happen with LB on the team. Might not be Kyrie's fault, but that's part of why Harden and Westbrook are getting a lot of love.

I forgot to mention the third.

To prove he's actually the more valuable player than LB, which might always be impossible/unfair.

Even as LB ages, and Kyrie maybe comes the better of the two, I think the allure of LB might always knock back a bit in that regard.

It's not easy winning MVP. There are a lot of all-time greats that have never won the away. You need usually some luck, not just greatness, to get the award now of days it seems.

Kobe and Shaq have both just won the award once, and they both have been multiple finals MVPs.

godfather said:

Chris Paul, IMO, has been the best point guard of this generation.

Outside of scoring, I can't think of single thing Kyrie even does that's remotely as good as Paul. He's got a lot of catching up to do if he's going to be 'vastly' superior to him.

Unless you're just measure better careers by titles, awards, etc, but better as in player? Because Kyrie has not even come close to being actually better than a Chris Paul in his prime, yet.

And for Kyrie to actually win MVP. He's really go to have improve dramatically in a few areas. Even if he does, winning it is pretty hard in this league. That's a bold claim to make, but he's definitely going to have to become a better defender.

Just average would do.

Or, and maybe more importantly become more of an impact player with assists ala like a Harden and Westbrook, which might never happen with LB on the team. Might not be Kyrie's fault, but that's part of why Harden and Westbrook are getting a lot of love.

I forgot to mention the third.

To prove he's actually the more valuable player than LB, which might always be impossible/unfair.

Even as LB ages, and Kyrie maybe comes the better of the two, I think the allure of LB might always knock back a bit in that regard.

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Kyrie is a much better scorer than Paul, he also has better handles. The massive mistake many people always make about Kyrie is to measure him as a PG instead of simply as a guard. He also already has 1 more championship than Chris Paul will ever win.