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2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

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Regrade the finalized trade

  • A+

    Votes: 20 8.0%
  • A

    Votes: 70 27.9%
  • B

    Votes: 74 29.5%
  • C

    Votes: 39 15.5%
  • D

    Votes: 18 7.2%
  • F

    Votes: 30 12.0%

  • Total voters
    251
Kyrie's points per game now stand at 25.5 for the season on 47.5/39.3/90.5 splits and 5.8 assists to 2.6 turnovers.

If anyone had told you before the season that we'd be in March and Ky would be averaging 26 points and 6 assists on his most efficient offensive production of his career, we'd be asking if he were in MVP talks. But, he plays with LeBron who still the best player in the league by a wide margin (imo) and these other few players are putting up insane boxscores as well.

...but, how much longer can this Kyrie thing go unnoticed nationally? He's been playing the best, most consistent regular season basketball of his career all season, and most specifically since mid-January (26 games).

Here are his averages in those 26:
28 points on 49% FG, 38% 3PT, 92% FT
6.1 assists
3.1 rebounds
1.2 steals
60% TS
120 OffRtg
56% eFG
in 35.5 minutes


And, just to track what still could potentially be a historical statistical "changing of the guard" if you will, Kyrie still has a legitimate chance to be the Cavs' leading scorer for the season.

As of this moment:
LeBron James: 26.2 points per game (18.0 shots, 7.1 FTAs)
Kyrie Irving: 25.5 points per game (19.8 FGAs, 4.6 FTAs)

Heady stuff for the young fella.





In terms of officiating and the lack of free throw attempts, I feel the time has come for someone either in the front office, coaching staff, a teammate, media member ... someone with some clout that can bring to light the unfairness of the way this man is officiated.

He had 10 free throws last night (2 of which were intentional at the end) and he could really have 8-12 FTAs every night based on how other guys are called. He doesn't flop and he won't sacrifice his balance/odds of hitting a shot to sell a call, but that makes his case even more egregious and easier to plead to the league office.

I just hope back-channels are being worked and think it is time to take it to the front channels. He is one of the most lethal attacking guards in the NBA where he is often hit and banged, guys ride up on him when he pulls up midrange, and he gets his jersey grabbed all the time in P&R situations. I don't even want to get into the hits he takes in transition that almost literally never result in free throws.

If it was called this way across the league I'd have no problem with it, because it obviously doesn't slow Kyrie down too much. But this guy could realistically be averaging 28-30 points a night if he got the benefit of the whistle like most star players do.

To piggyback on @gourimoko excellent breakdown above, there are just 9 other players in the NBA that have a usage rate of 30.0 or greater and have played over 2,000 minutes this season (which translates to roughly 33-37 minutes nightly).

Kyrie Irving has a usage rate of 30.9 (9th in NBA) and averages 35.1 minutes (15th in NBA).

Here is how using that much of the offense corresponds with free throws. Notice that there is literally one exception and the rest follow a pretty even formula.


Players ranked according to usage rate:

Russ Westbrook - 35 min, 41.9% usage, 10.7 FTAs
DeMarcus Cousins - 34.0 min, 36.6%, 9.3 FTAs
James Harden - 36.5 min, 34.3%, 11.0 FTAs
Isaiah Thomas - 34.1 min, 34.1%, 8.6 FTAs
DeMar Derozan - 35.2 min, 33.9%, 8.5 FTAs

Anthony Davis - 36.1 min, 32.6%, 8.9 FTAs
Damian Lillard - 36.0 min, 31.4%, 7.2 FTAs
Kawhi Leonard - 33.7 min, 31.3%, 7.6 FTAs

Kyrie Irving - 35.1 min, 30.9%, 4.6 FTAs
John Wall - 36.8 min, 30.5%, 6.7 FTAs
LeBron James - 37.6 min, 30.0%, 7.1 FTAs



Key
Flopper Central - Play for Whistles first, baskets second
Officials Respect - Star players who work for their FTs; star players who get calls
No Respect - My only conclusion has to be that the officials do not like/respect Irving; there is only one player in this class
Great post

I honestly believe the bare bones of this is that the league simply doesn't want us at the FT line all game long whether it is fair or not(its not). With that said, and maybe someone can post this, you would think Kyrie's fta would be on an uptick in games that Kevin Love or Lebron doesn't play. And if that isn't happening it could lend credence to the "no respect" classification you have for Kyrie.

I believe @gourimoko has posted about this aspect of having so many guys who can draw fouls and the refs being hesitant to keep awarding us fts iirc.



But let's be fucking honest here, our eyes aren't lying. Kyrie is getting fucking hacked out there and its pretty damn obvious.
 
And only emphasizes more why I despise Harden more than any player that doesn't reside in the Bay Area. He's obviously very good offensively but he's elevated himself to "MVP candidate" status based on learning to trick refs constantly.
I've never seen a player physically reach out and grab a defender's arms as often as he does when going to the hoop. And yet, somehow, he always gets the call. I wish this was 80's basketball and you could send out your 7'2 unathletic mountain of a man to hard foul the shit out of him.
 
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Great post

I honestly believe the bare bones of this is that the league simply doesn't want us at the FT line all game long whether it is fair or not(its not). With that said, and maybe someone can post this, you would think Kyrie's fta would be on an uptick in games that Kevin Love or Lebron doesn't play. And if that isn't happening it could lend credence to the "no respect" classification you have for Kyrie.

I believe @gourimoko has posted about this aspect of having so many guys who can draw fouls and the refs being hesitant to keep awarding us fts iirc.



But let's be fucking honest here, our eyes aren't lying. Kyrie is getting fucking hacked out there and its pretty damn obvious.

I am shocked you are shocked, I won't get into to it but NBA refs are not refs but bookies in disguise essentially. What I am trying to say is they play the popular and trending side of the bill to fill their pockets or Vegas and the high roll betters. A lot of people still hate Cleveland and LeBron and to be fair refs never treated our NBA teams great.

As for Kyrie I feel he is really not a MVP the NBA wants nor does anyone else because the NBA did not produce him. No one thought he would be this good and neither did the other GMs. So when he did become a legit rising super star and got stuck on a bad team at the time no one ever thought LeBron would play with him and then get love who the "idiot media claimed Kyrie and Love are not winners and fools gold" So NBA refs love to throw games at times for personal gains and it gives the NBA a more edgy tone so they let them do it.

Okay again back to why Kyrie does not get many calls as he should, He does but they are on phantom calls and they let the real contact go, I can not figure that out but if I can recall for some odd reason regular season Kyrie gets treat like crap and this goes for the whole Cavs team. However Post season Cavs get more calls the deeper they get. Very interesting stuff and I wish I could get to the bottom of it. I hate NBA refs more than anything sports related do not get me wrong. However it seems that LeBron likes it and plays them into his hands. The fact Kyrie is getting less respect is a blessing is disguise trust me.
 
Kyrie's points per game now stand at 25.5 for the season on 47.5/39.3/90.5 splits and 5.8 assists to 2.6 turnovers.

If anyone had told you before the season that we'd be in March and Ky would be averaging 26 points and 6 assists on his most efficient offensive production of his career, we'd be asking if he were in MVP talks. But, he plays with LeBron who still the best player in the league by a wide margin (imo) and these other few players are putting up insane boxscores as well.

...but, how much longer can this Kyrie thing go unnoticed nationally? He's been playing the best, most consistent regular season basketball of his career all season, and most specifically since mid-January (26 games).

Here are his averages in those 26:
28 points on 49% FG, 38% 3PT, 92% FT
6.1 assists
3.1 rebounds
1.2 steals
60% TS
120 OffRtg
56% eFG
in 35.5 minutes


And, just to track what still could potentially be a historical statistical "changing of the guard" if you will, Kyrie still has a legitimate chance to be the Cavs' leading scorer for the season.

As of this moment:
LeBron James: 26.2 points per game (18.0 shots, 7.1 FTAs)
Kyrie Irving: 25.5 points per game (19.8 FGAs, 4.6 FTAs)

Heady stuff for the young fella.





In terms of officiating and the lack of free throw attempts, I feel the time has come for someone either in the front office, coaching staff, a teammate, media member ... someone with some clout that can bring to light the unfairness of the way this man is officiated.

He had 10 free throws last night (2 of which were intentional at the end) and he could really have 8-12 FTAs every night based on how other guys are called. He doesn't flop and he won't sacrifice his balance/odds of hitting a shot to sell a call, but that makes his case even more egregious and easier to plead to the league office.

I just hope back-channels are being worked and think it is time to take it to the front channels. He is one of the most lethal attacking guards in the NBA where he is often hit and banged, guys ride up on him when he pulls up midrange, and he gets his jersey grabbed all the time in P&R situations. I don't even want to get into the hits he takes in transition that almost literally never result in free throws.

If it was called this way across the league I'd have no problem with it, because it obviously doesn't slow Kyrie down too much. But this guy could realistically be averaging 28-30 points a night if he got the benefit of the whistle like most star players do.

To piggyback on @gourimoko excellent breakdown above, there are just 9 other players in the NBA that have a usage rate of 30.0 or greater and have played over 2,000 minutes this season (which translates to roughly 33-37 minutes nightly).

Kyrie Irving has a usage rate of 30.9 (9th in NBA) and averages 35.1 minutes (15th in NBA).

Here is how using that much of the offense corresponds with free throws. Notice that there is literally one exception and the rest follow a pretty even formula.


Players ranked according to usage rate:

Russ Westbrook - 35 min, 41.9% usage, 10.7 FTAs
DeMarcus Cousins - 34.0 min, 36.6%, 9.3 FTAs
James Harden - 36.5 min, 34.3%, 11.0 FTAs
Isaiah Thomas - 34.1 min, 34.1%, 8.6 FTAs
DeMar Derozan - 35.2 min, 33.9%, 8.5 FTAs

Anthony Davis - 36.1 min, 32.6%, 8.9 FTAs
Damian Lillard - 36.0 min, 31.4%, 7.2 FTAs
Kawhi Leonard - 33.7 min, 31.3%, 7.6 FTAs

Kyrie Irving - 35.1 min, 30.9%, 4.6 FTAs
John Wall - 36.8 min, 30.5%, 6.7 FTAs
LeBron James - 37.6 min, 30.0%, 7.1 FTAs



Key
Flopper Central - Play for Whistles first, baskets second
Officials Respect - Star players who work for their FTs; star players who get calls
No Respect - My only conclusion has to be that the officials do not like/respect Irving; there is only one player in this class

Just to add to a solid post...looking at synergy, Kyrie averages 9.4 drives a game, which is 15th in all of basketball, and attempts 5.6 FGA per game off of drives, tied for 5th in all of basketball.

Of the 5 players ahead of him on FGA off of drives, here's their average FTA per game drawn off a drive:

Isaiah Thomas: 3.2 FTA per game
Dennis Schroder: 1.6 FTA per game
Derrick Rose: 2.4 FTA per game
Damian Lillard: 2.8 FTA per game
DeMar Derozan: 3.0 FTA per game
Kyrie Irving: 1.6 FTA per game

Of the players ahead of him on drives per game, the only people with less or equal FTAs per game drawn off of drives are:

Goran Dragic: 1.4 FTA on 12.2 drives per game (46.4% lead to passes)
Dennis Schroder: 1.6 FTA on 12.1 drives per game (29.3% lead to passes)
Dion Waiters: 1.6 FTA on 11 drives per game (41% lead to passes)
Jeff Teague: 1.7 FTA on 9.9 drives per game (34.9% lead to passes)
Kyrie Irving: 1.6 FTA on 9.4 drives per game (27.6% lead to passes)

One of those things is not like the others. And the fact that he has the lowest pass out of the drive % disgusts me even further.

Even more disgusting fact? 2 of the guys below him on drives per game, LeBron and Jimmy Butler, both pass out of their drives 30%+ of the time (LBJ 31.7%, Butler 38.8%), yet draw 2 times the FTA per game off of drives than Kyrie does.

If someone ever tries to bring up the "Cavs get so many superstar calls" bullshit, just bring it up that Kyrie is being reffed like he is Dion on drives to the basket, who is notorious for not getting calls because of the AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD OOOOOOOONNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!
 
Can't wait to see this dude fold up like a British dinner napkin when the refs don't reward the flailing in the playoffs.

How this will go.

Harden will be great. His team will lose at some point in the playoffs. Everyone who hates Harden will declare victory. No matter how well he plays. If he has a bad 2 minute stretch in some important fourth quarter, "see, manufactured star!!!!"

I do hope I'm wrong on this.
 
How this will go.

Harden will be great. His team will lose at some point in the playoffs. Everyone who hates Harden will declare victory. No matter how well he plays. If he has a bad 2 minute stretch in some important fourth quarter, "see, manufactured star!!!!"

I do hope I'm wrong on this.

Other Curry who got his before they made him into a god, Never really won titles. It was usually the best player and work horse that always won and if our Cavs team the first go round in the Finals was healthy we beat then to. See Durant has to go to GS to help the new manufactured stars they already had. Oh I guess coaches mean nothing, even though Kerr is a stuck up asshole he did make the team what it was... and might still be.

Anyways Westbrook, Harden, and I. Thomas are all NBA made stars with the refs help. I could argue Curry here as well. (Why did you think they needed to add Durant to the best team ever...) LeBron going down as one of the top five players in the game in history, the NBA needs players to look good to try to keeping him from doing so so.

Finally I am on a long post and thing told stuff rant. I will Says Harden this year in my opinion is worthy of MVP or the case of him running. That guy is getting less love and is playing great ball. He took a team of role players and made them into a force. So if you are pro Harden I wilth you. It did take D. Wade ref love to get him there but man has he rose up. I would love to face the Rockets in the Finals because I want to see what Harden really has in him.
 
How this will go.

Harden will be great. His team will lose at some point in the playoffs. Everyone who hates Harden will declare victory. No matter how well he plays. If he has a bad 2 minute stretch in some important fourth quarter, "see, manufactured star!!!!"

What a coincidence that you posted this in the Kyrie thread.
 
If someone ever tries to bring up the "Cavs get so many superstar calls" bullshit, just bring it up that Kyrie is being reffed like he is Dion on drives to the basket, who is notorious for not getting calls because of the AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD OOOOOOOONNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!!

You forgot "AYEEEE!"
 
How this will go.

Harden will be great. His team will lose at some point in the playoffs. Everyone who hates Harden will declare victory. No matter how well he plays. If he has a bad 2 minute stretch in some important fourth quarter, "see, manufactured star!!!!"

I do hope I'm wrong on this.

You DO know he actually did NOT play well in the playoffs last year, right? He wasn't "great" by any stretch. 41% from the field, 31% from 3, 26!!! Turnovers in the series they played (5 games)..

Sometimes you just try way too hard to try to make people look like lemmings or idiots or whatever your goal is.
 
How this will go.

Harden will be great. His team will lose at some point in the playoffs. Everyone who hates Harden will declare victory. No matter how well he plays. If he has a bad 2 minute stretch in some important fourth quarter, "see, manufactured star!!!!"

I do hope I'm wrong on this.

Never forget that Hardens team was down like 19 against the Clippers, on the verge of elimination, and Harden got benched, leading to a Josh Smith and Corey Brewer fueled roaring comeback to win the game and swing the series.
 
Has anybody actually published a study or looked at the data that showed that teams go to the line less often in playoffs as opposed to the regular season? Is it really that significant a difference?
 
Has anybody actually published a study or looked at the data that showed that teams go to the line less often in playoffs as opposed to the regular season? Is it really that significant a difference?

Harden still goes to the line 10 times a game in the playoffs. Poor guy.
There is a small disparity, but nothing significant.
 
The FTA/game data may not be different, but the play and the officiating is. Touch fouls don't really happen in the playoffs. So players who rely on those fouls in the regular season don't get them in the playoffs.

They may end up with the same FTA, but it is because they are attacking more, with the same amount as calls in the regular season, meaning they are missing more shots. This is why players like Wall and Thomas have had a garbage FG% thus far in their postseason career.
 
Harden and Westbrook are great players. But, the problem with them is they can be very inefficient players that have a very high turnover rate. And that kind of production can cost you in the playoffs when every possession becomes more pivotal.

Westbrook I don't think gets enough criticism as well. He's not had the infamous poor playoff performances quite like Harden, but he can definitely be detrimental to his team too with how out of control he can play.

And definitely was very costly with his erratic play in letting GS come back and win the series. He kinda got a pass because of how awful Durant was, and his bitch move to leave, but make no mistake, Westbrook cost his team in that series too. He made a lot of really careless decisions that you just can't have from someone like him.

Their best traits can also be their worst ones too. They are very talented, maybe you can say they are the two top point guards at the moment, I guess, at a numbers standpoint.

But if you were going into the post-season, would you take them as your top point guards? I wouldn't. Don't think I can trust them enough.
 
Harden and Westbrook are great players. But, the problem with them is they can be very inefficient players that have a very high turnover rate. And that kind of production can cost you in the playoffs when every possession becomes more pivotal.

Westbrook I don't think gets enough criticism as well. He's not had the infamous poor playoff performances quite like Harden, but he can definitely be detrimental to his team too with how out of control he can play.

And definitely was very costly with his erratic play in letting GS come back and win the series. He kinda got a pass because of how awful Durant was, and his bitch move to leave, but make no mistake, Westbrook cost his team in that series too. He made a lot of really careless decisions that you just can't have from someone like him.

Their best traits can also be their worst ones too. They are very talented, maybe you can say they are the two top point guards at the moment, I guess, at a numbers standpoint.

But if you were going into the post-season, would you take them as your top point guards? I wouldn't. Don't think I can trust them enough.

I'd take Harden near the top. I'd take CP3 and Steph both over Westbrook.

If you give me a LeBron to start with, I'll take Kyrie over any of them.
 

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