Racial Tension in the U.S.

The Human Q-Tip said:

You are equating culture with race, as if there is some uniform, common culture shared by all black people.

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Culturally, there is more of a connection between black Americans than white Americans. It is a unique situation that derives from the circumstances already discussed, but it is also not homogenous or narrow (don't put words in my mouth if you don't like it). It is in some ways as if black itself is a nationality/ethnicity because most African Americans don't know their full heritage as a result of slavery. But we've been over this before. For black people in America, there is an overlap between race and culture.

That is true with not only with respect to African Americans descended from slaves -- whose "culture" may vary widely depending on a ton of socio-economic and geographic factors, but even more so when current immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean, or elsewhere are added into the mix. The cultures, even the ethnicities, to some extent, are actually different.

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So are you saying that the African Americans who descend from slaves in this country DON'T have a culture?

Every black person does not share in the same urban hip-hop cultural affiliation that the media jams down our throats. That's a stereotype.

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Nobody said any of that.

Of course, that exact same criticism applies to "white pride". Given that white people don't all have the same culture, that term also devolves into meaning nothing other than pure race. Both terms amount to having pride in a skin color, which is something over which none of us have a shred of control. It's racist at its core. The term is probably more pernicious than "black pride", but we're just talking degrees of racism at this point.

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Honestly this is so stupid. There is a fundamental difference between the meanings of white and black pride, which we've gone over. Acting like they are just the same thing on a spectrum of racism is ignorant of reality.

Race and culture are not inextricably linked. There are is some correlation, but that correlation is continually weakening over time, as it should.

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Once again this is the divide of color-blindness. You are ignoring and erasing the experience of black Americans to say we should move past it instead of accepting and celebrating our differences. Black people have a culture in this country and they don't have to give it up in order for us to progress as an equal society.

You won't agree with the things I said and we'll go in a circle. In a few weeks we'll have the same argument.

The current culture war has many theatres, one of which is the struggle over words...their definitions, their permissibility, and the effort to invent new ones that inflict more damage.

gourimoko said:

You mean indentured servants?

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No. No. No. No. No.

We're not doing this again.

-Akronite- said:

Culturally, there is more of a connection between black Americans than white Americans. It is a unique situation that derives from the circumstances already discussed, but it is also not homogenous or narrow (don't put words in my mouth if you don't like it). It is in some ways as if black itself is a nationality/ethnicity because most African Americans don't know their full heritage as a result of slavery. But we've been over this before. For black people in America, there is an overlap between race and culture.



So are you saying that the African Americans who descend from slaves in this country DON'T have a culture?



Nobody said any of that.



Honestly this is so stupid. There is a fundamental difference between the meanings of white and black pride, which we've gone over. Acting like they are just the same thing on a spectrum of racism is ignorant of reality.



Once again this is the divide of color-blindness. You are ignoring and erasing the experience of black Americans to say we should move past it instead of accepting and celebrating our differences. Black people have a culture in this country and they don't have to give it up in order for us to progress as an equal society.

You won't agree with the things I said and we'll go in a circle. In a few weeks we'll have the same argument.

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if it wasn't for double standards, you'd have none.

Daddy got a new laptop. GL, gg.

Tornicade said:

I have given multiple examples of proof

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no you haven't.

and it is clear you don't understand what institutional racism/Classism is

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I clearly DO understand what institutional racism is. YOU clearly dont understand that Im asking you to support your claim. You are 3 posts in and have failed to do so. So i will reject your claim as a conspiracy theory and deem your position indefensible as you cannot seem to defend it.

Your

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you're

talking about income and marriage.

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yes, which has a huge effect on literally everything else you're about to list off.

We are talking about Education, Crime, Real estate, the Justice system .Congress, Taxes, Banking Lending practices, Insurance ,Voting , Stock Market and health care.

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thank you.

You are just naming things.

Rape. Aliens.

Have I proved anything about anything? I love lamp.

prove
pro͞ov/
verb

1. 1.
   demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.
   "the concept is difficult to prove"
   synonyms:show (to be true), demonstrate (the truth of), show beyond doubt, manifest, produce proof/evidence; More

its in our laws, rules and infrastructure.

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prove it.

David. said:

Daddy got a new laptop. GL, gg.


no you haven't.


I clearly DO understand what institutional racism is. YOU clearly dont understand that Im asking you to support your claim. You are 3 posts in and have failed to do so. So i will reject your claim as a conspiracy theory and deem your position indefensible as you cannot seem to defend it.


you're

yes, which has a huge effect on literally everything else you're about to list off.



thank you.

You are just naming things.

Rape. Aliens.

Have I proved anything about anything? I love lamp.

prove
pro͞ov/
verb

1. 1.
   demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument.
   "the concept is difficult to prove"
   synonyms:show (to be true), demonstrate (the truth of), show beyond doubt, manifest, produce proof/evidence; More

prove it.

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Ill discuss this when you understand what institutional racism/classim is. otherwise its falling on blind eyes as the 350 other times we have discuss these things in discussion that you made yourself involved in.

otherwise I don't have time to rpost the 45-50 post that myself, Gourimoko and others have made on these subjects

War on drugs, Court appointed attorneys, Education system based primarily on local then state tax.Lending rates. etc etc.

do your own homework

Tornicade said:

Ill discuss this when you understand what institutional racism/classim is. otherwise its falling on blind eyes as the 350 other times we have discuss these things in discussion that you made yourself involved in.

otherwise I don't have time to rpost the 45-50 post that myself, Gourimoko and others have made on these subjects

War on drugs, Court appointed attorneys, Education system based primarily on local then state tax.Lending rates. etc etc.

do your own homework

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4 posts. Zero evidence. 10 hours to do so. Ive worked an entire shift, lost my car keys, had new ones made and reprogrammed via mobile locksmith, bought a computer, taken 2 shits, walked the dog on my hoverboard around san diego, watched a couple lectures, and played 3on3 basketball at the rec center in the meantime.

I have done my homework. That is why Im challenging you. You are unable to defend your position, so I'll assume you cant.

You have ignored all of my points of contention and cannot defend your own. Not a difficult conclusion to deduce. You either haven't the respect to actually respond to literally anything I'm saying, or you are unable.

To anyone else, I'm willing to objectively consider your research. Just not Torn. Because he's done none. And can regularly be seen as unable to defend his positions, ever, and is frankly rude while failing to do so.

Dubs

David. said:

4 posts. Zero evidence. 10 hours to do so. Ive worked an entire shift, lost my car keys, had new ones made and reprogrammed via mobile locksmith, bought a computer, taken 2 shits, walked the dog on my hoverboard around san diego, watched a couple lectures, and played 3on3 basketball at the rec center in the meantime.

I have done my homework. That is why Im challenging you. You are unable to defend your position, so I'll assume you cant.

You have ignored all of my points of contention and cannot defend your own. Not a difficult conclusion to deduce. You either haven't the respect to actually respond to literally anything I'm saying, or you are unable.

To anyone else, I'm willing to objectively consider your research. Just not Torn. Because he's done none. And can regularly be seen as unable to defend his positions, ever, and is frankly rude while failing to do so.

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You haven't made any points of condition regarding the topic. you've made counterpoints about marriage, income, and individual behaviors. None of which have any bearing on the topic. your countering.

I'm not debating with you. I made a statement that has been supported by fact and references over the last year that we discussed these topic and I am not gonna "prove" it when you don't seem to grasp what you want proven for the 20th time.

how bout you try to make a legitimate counter and do your own research it isn't difficult.

I don't really care what you accept or don't accept.

do you believe Jury selection is equal for all?
DO you believe that the drug war is equal for all?
do you believe the education system is equal for all?
Do you believe the court system is equal for all ?
Do you believe real estate is equal for all?
Do you believe that lending is all?

because that is a lot of content to demand that someone "prove" In one post. especially when they and other poster have a significant post citing facts and figures as well as common sense supporting those matters.

meanwhile you want individual cases cited and talk about why people choose to get married.
pick a topic. we can start all over again topic by topic.

but I am not doing your homework for you and if you don't care about what torn has to say. then don't respond to him because idgaf.
I'm not your bitch

-Akronite- said:

Culturally, there is more of a connection between black Americans than white Americans.

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There is 5 times more black-on-black homicides per capital than white-on-white. Some cultural connection that is.

Strangers are strangers. Even between race.

gourimoko said:

But Q-Tip, you haven't really countered the argument I've made; you've simply stated that there are many people who are misinformed. I would agree with you that the bolded is 100% factual.

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Those of us who are discussing the topic here are -- quite rightly, I would add -- using the meaning as it is more commonly used in society, not whatever meaning some academics may have assigned to it at some point in the past. That meaning is essentially irrelevant at this point other than for an academic circle-jerk.

And frankly, I believe the evolution of the term (if it has actually really evolved at all....) was predictable as hell. The term -- and glad to note you don't like it either -- is something of a loaded gun. Because as soon as you mention "white privilege", the first thing most people are going to think is "well, how do we compensate for that privilege." That was the discussion I was having with @-Akronite- . Okay, you've identified this "privilege" -- now what are you saying should be done about it?" And after disavowing any form of affirmative action. All he really came up with was busing. But when was the last time any of us heard those using the "privilege" stamp calling for nothing more than busing?

But to suggest that someone who asserts White Privilege exists is asserting that White people enjoy better financial situations that non-Whites .. that simply misses the point. It's a false argument, a straw-man; but one that is not so obvious to see since the term itself, counter-intuitively, implies this false argument.

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I would agree that's a false argument -- that wasn't my point in raising financial equality. I raised the issue of financial/social/educational, etc., inequality to ask why we need the term "white privilege" at all? There are so many other forms of "privilege" that impact lives even more. So why are we singling out that one?

Or to put it differently, What is the point -- the utility -- of the academic term in the first place?

caf said:

There is 5 times more black-on-black homicides per capital than white-on-white. Some cultural connection that is.

Strangers are strangers. Even between race.

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Is black-on-black crime just a blanket answer for everything in this thread? Jesus fucking Christ.

I don't know most people in the Midwest but I have a cultural connection to corn and football anyway.



Just listened to the first episode of Bernie's new podcast by the way. Despite terrible sound quality and clearly one-sided discussion, I found the first guest, Rev. William Barber, interesting in his focus on voter suppression. This has a large effect on black communities. Like most things, the discussion here seems to become a circle of "why can't people just get IDs" vs "why can't we just make voting easier." There's also the consideration of whether voter fraud is actually a problem, the effects of gerrymandering, and the court results that have shown some of these laws to be targeting blacks. But one issue that I feel like there should be agreement on is vote accessibility. How do people feel about the fact that new laws have reduced the number of voting sites in states (especially in black and poor areas) as well as the window in which to register to vote? Do we not agree that it's an issue that we have so little democratic engagement in this country?

-Akronite- said:

Culturally, there is more of a connection between black Americans than white Americans.

Click to expand...

It is a unique situation that derives from the circumstances already discussed, but it is also not homogenous or narrow (don't put words in my mouth if you don't like it). It is in some ways as if black itself is a nationality/ethnicity because most African Americans don't know their full heritage as a result of slavery. But we've been over this before. For black people in America, there is an overlap between race and culture.

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I find it somewhat remarkable that a white guy is so willing to lump black people into the same cultural boat just because of the color of their skin, but let's just do it this way:

Define "black culture".

So are you saying that the African Americans who descend from slaves in this country DON'T have a culture?

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"A" culture -- no, they don't have a single culture. And of course, the rest of my point was that there are black people in this country who are not descended from slaves at all. I'm fairly tight with some first generation Africans -- and they have their own culture.

Once again this is the divide of color-blindness. You are ignoring and erasing the experience of black Americans to say we should move past it instead of accepting and celebrating our differences. Black people have a culture in this country and they don't have to give it up in order for us to progress as an equal society.

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What is "the black culture"?

You won't agree with the things I said and we'll go in a circle. In a few weeks we'll have the same argument.

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That's because you don't answer direct questions. You've been jammed full of garbage by some whacked out college professors, and simply repeat yourself when challenged.

I have a sister in law who is very liberal, and a very nice person. She adopted two poor crack babies from Detroit a number of years ago. The one is not really functional, but the older one is. And my SIL apparently felt it important to ensure that the older one listened to rap music, could do the Soldja Boy dance, etc., because it was part of her heritage. And I'm thinking -- wtf??? Because my SIL has two other kids of her own, both who are musically talented, who were introduced to/listened to all sorts of different music. The idea that skin color should determine your culture is something I personally find...racist. I'm not sure how else to put it.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Because as soon as you mention "white privilege", the first thing most people are going to think is "well, how do we compensate for that privilege." That was the discussion I was having with @-Akronite- . Okay, you've identified this "privilege" -- now what are you saying should be done about it?" And after disavowing any form of affirmative action. All he really came up with was busing. But when was the last time any of us heard those using the "privilege" stamp calling for nothing more than busing?

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Are you talking about personal compensation or systemic compensation? Because it seems like in your head, and a few heads around here, these things don't even exist. Are we now switching to "sure, white privilege exists but what do you want me to do about it?" (With a dash of whataboutotherprivileges?)

I never disavowed affirmative action, if that's what you're saying, by the way. The only point I remember making about it is the fact that you seem to complain about it as if it's the entire race debate.

And you keep stating this as if I could only come up with one thing while you've yet to present a single solution for race issues (in large part because you barely acknowledge the role race plays in our society). The fact is that any race issues that are brought up get dismissed as non-issues in here. De-segregation was just an example that felt less controversial but apparently still causes a stir. In the case of the St. Louis school I brought up, the responses showed zero empathy and essentially amounted to "but why do we have to change things?"

As I said then, it's difficult to have a conversation when you simply shit on ideas when they are presented (that you repeatedly asked for) while bringing nothing to the table.

The Human Q-Tip said:

I find it somewhat remarkable that a white guy is so willing to lump black people into the same cultural boat just because of the color of their skin, but let's just do it this way:

Define "black culture".

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We've been over this. It's a broad term that covers social movements, arts, history, communities, religion.

"A" culture -- no, they don't have a single culture. And of course, the rest of my point was that there are black people in this country who are not descended from slaves at all. I'm fairly tight with some first generation Africans -- and they have their own culture.

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Holy shit.

Of course there are first generation Africans. They face similar and sometimes more severe racism in this country. It's really interesting to see the contrast in racial experience between a guy like Trevor Noah, who's South African, and black Americans. I have never stated that all black people are strictly part of some homogeneous group. I'm not say A culture as in "they only get one" but as in there is ALSO this phenomenon. There are overlaps and separations. Using the term "black culture" doesn't negate that at all. Quit suggesting that because it makes no sense.

That's because you don't answer direct questions. You've been jammed full of garbage by some whacked out college professors, and simply repeat yourself when challenged.

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I repeat myself? Sure, so what the fuck are you doing? Whenever an issue is brought up, whether it's representation or voter suppression or police brutality, what is your response? You dismiss them.* It's hard to solve problems you don't think exist.

*It's possible you've acknowledged individual issues at some point in some fashion, but by and large you seem to ignore systemic issues and see everything as simply actions of individuals, as do most members of the conservative movement.