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Goodbye Larry Nance Jr.

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CTownSportsFan said:
I like your break down of what Nance brings over TT . You also mentioned TT is still your fav . May I ask you to turn in around and tell me what TT brings Nance can’t
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Just because I [still] like him doesn't mean he does anything better. In fact, if this keeps up, Nance Jr could be my new favorite.

If there is something that Tristan does better (if there IS anything)... I don't really think there is... Draw fouls maybe? Maybe get under his opponent's skin? Impregnate a Kardashian?! :dunno: Wait, that wouldn't be a positive... He's an awkward, cheesy Canadian. Not really talented or the most coordinated, but he put in the hard work to get the $$$.
 
MirORich said:
I look at it this way.

Clarkson was a rare mid 2nd rounder that actually has big talent and had translated that talent to success on the court already in 4 seasons.

Nance was a late 1st, so what, maybe a 33% chance rate of success, that had already proven to be good on the court and had multiple years of nba game tape for FO’s to evaluate

So the Lakers played the odds and took the risk on both of those draft slots that often don’t pan out, the guys actually turn out to be useful/talented NBA players and then LA promptly hands them over to us for a new late round first, with no guarantee for them(or us if we had kept it) that it would have turned out to be a good player in time. All because they’re so mindful of their cap space in both 2018 and 2019(Clarkson under contract for both those years).

Sort of like when the Indians would develop good minor leaguers in the late 60s and 70s and then trade them to the Yankees do they could become stars.

Thanks Lakers!

Oh, and if the deal could have been done that would have better BOTH Clarkson and Nance without a 1st, we would have done it. We didn’t just say “oh by the way, we know you don’t even want this for these two guys but here’s a 1st round pick we don’t really want”

They could have moved Clarkson to a team like the Hawks for a second if they didn’t have the deal from us for both players but a 1st included. If it was just moving Clarkson for a 2nd, other teams would have bit and they wouldn’t have helped us out. He wasn’t a cancer that no other team wanted.
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Okay, i'll bite :/

Show me another team with expriings that are worth exactly 12-14M... there was no other team but the Cavs. We were the only team wit hthe needed expirings, not to mention the dry market for Clarkson. The only other team that was close to that figure were the 76ers who had an 11M expiring in Amir Johnson.

We had every bit of leverage in that trade, Magic had no other option but to condede the 2018 FA if not for us.
 
Dude fuck that first round pick. Late first rounders are the most overrated asset in the league. You pray to God you get 1 guy that can hold Nance's jockstrap with that pick AND we got Jordan Swagson???? I make that trade 100 times out of 100. I do miss Frye though but I love these guys. Wish C Frye could be here for this :(
 
Sir'Dom Pointer said:
Okay, i'll bite :/

Show me another team with expriings that are worth exactly 12-14M... there was no other team but the Cavs. We were the only team wit hthe needed expirings, not to mention the dry market for Clarkson. The only other team that was close to that figure were the 76ers who had an 11M expiring in Amir Johnson.

We had every bit of leverage in that trade, Magic had no other option but to condede the 2018 FA if not for us.
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Dude....The Lakers didn't have to make that trade now. They could have waited until after the season because they didn't actually need the space until July.

And post draft...They may have done that deal with someone else. Or perhaps even decided to wait a year.
 
This guy is good. Very good defender, good motor, good finisher, and is one of those who seems to be always is on the right spot on the floor.

Teams don't know what to do with the Cavs PnR now that you have a guy can jump quickly off one foot and jam with one hand (not naming another guy on the team who needs to gather, jump with two feet, and has trouble palming the basketball)
 
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Sir'Dom Pointer said:
Okay, i'll bite :/

Show me another team with expriings that are worth exactly 12-14M... there was no other team but the Cavs. We were the only team wit hthe needed expirings, not to mention the dry market for Clarkson. The only other team that was close to that figure were the 76ers who had an 11M expiring in Amir Johnson.

We had every bit of leverage in that trade, Magic had no other option but to condede the 2018 FA if not for us.
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Lakers had traction elsewhere on moving off of Clarkson for expiring money and keeping Nance for only giving up a 2nd round pick. They wanted to obtain a pick. They did not want to part with Nance at all. There were plenty of teams interest in Tyreke/Lou Will but teams did not want to give up a first round pick. Clarkson had longer money but was also a young bench scorer that would have not cost any assets.

It only would take like 7.2 million of outgoing expiring money to bring back Clarkson.

I would think of the trades as two separate deals. Clarkson for expirings. Nance for a late 1st. Nance's value is probably slightly higher than a late first, and Clarkson's is probably a little less valuable than expirings. It was a fair deal. I looked into it extensively because I didn't think the pick was necessary either. I mentioned the Clarkson/Nance framework in S34 on Monday, and didn't hear anything about a pick. But it took the pick to actually get it done.
 
rabman_gold said:
... Comparing Nance Jr to Tristan is close to impossible, despite how similar their game's are.

Thompson [is/was] a hard worker. But he clearly lacks the bball IQ. So what does he do to compensate? He does hand-offs (rather than pinpoint passes) and pick-and-roll switching (rather than show and recover).

From the little I can see from Nance Jr, he has more options when passing and a higher set of defensive skills. And yes, he can do the same things that Tristan can, but also the things that a basketball brain can offer.

I took the liberty to watch him play the first half tonight, I'm going to list EVERYTHING I saw him do skill-wise that Tristan can't do:
  • He can fill the lanes as a big man; right spot at the right time
  • He can use his entire body to box out, including his arms
  • He can use his arms creatively to get layups and passes
  • He knows how to use his physicality (helps to deter his man, including the bigger bodies like Steven Adams)
  • He can communicate with every man on both sides of the floor (get them to the right spots on offense and defense)
  • He knows where the ball is going and what all 9 guys are doing on the court
Don't get me wrong: I love Tristan as a player (ATM, I think he's still my favorite current Cav). The motor and energy he brings (or brought) is infectious. He works (or did work) hard. And he knows what he can do as a player and utilizes that (knows his limits). But the things he can't do... Nance Jr is able to.

We might see a different starting center soon if this keeps up.
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Great breakdown. One underrated thing I want to add is that on switches and trading off players on off ball action Nance TALKS AND POINTS. Emphasis on both honestly. His arms were always POINTING to the switch and where his teammate should go and he TALKED early and LOUD. It was so weird to see a big on our team direct traffic so smoothly and authoritatively that wasn't LeBron. You could see the steadying aura he has.
 
InBoobieWeTrust said:
Lakers had traction elsewhere on moving off of Clarkson for expiring money and keeping Nance for only giving up a 2nd round pick. They wanted to obtain a pick. They did not want to part with Nance at all. There were plenty of teams interest in Tyreke/Lou Will but teams did not want to give up a first round pick. Clarkson had longer money but was also a young bench scorer that would have not cost any assets.

It only would take like 7.2 million of outgoing expiring money to bring back Clarkson.

I would think of the trades as two separate deals. Clarkson for expirings. Nance for a late 1st. Nance's value is probably slightly higher than a late first, and Clarkson's is probably a little less valuable than expirings. It was a fair deal. I looked into it extensively because I didn't think the pick was necessary either. I mentioned the Clarkson/Nance framework in S34 on Monday, and didn't hear anything about a pick. But it took the pick to actually get it done.
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What was the idea behind trading for Nance and JC before acquiring Hill and Hood? would it have pressured Magic? We made that deal 1 hour before the deadline, why the hurry?

I also believe Magic leaked that article through Ramona Shelburne saying "that he was going to skip the 2018 FA" to make it seem like they were not nearly as desperate as before for exactly that trade scenario. Lakers fans are ecstatic about that trade and Magic should be too. He had very very very limited options.
 
InBoobieWeTrust said:
Lakers had traction elsewhere on moving off of Clarkson for expiring money and keeping Nance for only giving up a 2nd round pick. They wanted to obtain a pick. They did not want to part with Nance at all. There were plenty of teams interest in Tyreke/Lou Will but teams did not want to give up a first round pick. Clarkson had longer money but was also a young bench scorer that would have not cost any assets.

It only would take like 7.2 million of outgoing expiring money to bring back Clarkson.

I would think of the trades as two separate deals. Clarkson for expirings. Nance for a late 1st. Nance's value is probably slightly higher than a late first, and Clarkson's is probably a little less valuable than expirings. It was a fair deal. I looked into it extensively because I didn't think the pick was necessary either. I mentioned the Clarkson/Nance framework in S34 on Monday, and didn't hear anything about a pick. But it took the pick to actually get it done.
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I get that Lakers don't want to pay big money for him but it's strange how undervalued guys like Nance are. Statistics and eye test indicate he's much better then what you would expect for most even late lottery players (PER around 19, 11th among PF's in RAPM).

You redo that 2015 draft and he goes after KAT, Porzingis, Turner, Russell, Booker and then maybe some team would take a shot at Okafur and those guys based on potential. All and all if you go by actual production he's worth a late lottery pick from his draft.
 
Pioneer10 said:
I get that Lakers don't want to pay big money for him but it's strange how undervalued guys like Nance are. Statistics and eye test indicate he's much better then what you would expect for most even late lottery players (PER around 19, 11th among PF's in RAPM).

You redo that 2015 draft and he goes after KAT, Porzingis, Turner, Russell, Booker and then maybe some team would take a shot at Okafur and those guys based on potential. All and all if you go by actual production he's worth a late lottery pick from his draft.
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Do you really take Russell ahead of him? based on what?
 
Watch out when he comes back next season with a mid-range jumper.

Maybe he can get dad to have 'ole Brad drop by and teach him the sweeping hook while they are at it.
 
Sir'Dom Pointer said:
Okay, i'll bite :/

Show me another team with expriings that are worth exactly 12-14M... there was no other team but the Cavs. We were the only team wit hthe needed expirings, not to mention the dry market for Clarkson. The only other team that was close to that figure were the 76ers who had an 11M expiring in Amir Johnson.

We had every bit of leverage in that trade, Magic had no other option but to condede the 2018 FA if not for us.
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Besides what @InBoobieWeTrust mentioned above, there’s also this:

Just as the Cavs were able to find takers for several players to create room for LeBron in 2014, the Lakers could have simply waited until the start of FA, if they got verbal commitments from both LeBron and PG13, they could have traded Clarkson to any number of teams who as soon as FA begins will have tons of cap space, very little talent, and are done tanking for the draft(ATL, CHI, DAL, SAC, BKN, ORL, PHX). He could be absorbed into cap space by any of those teams the first minute of FA.

Any one of those teams would gladly have taken Clarkson at the beginning of FA, as they will not be a FA destination and they can retain any of their own players that young players via bird rights.

The Lakers wanted to move Clarkson at the deadline, but they did not NEED to move him at the deadline.


Also, why assume the the Nance/Clarkson deal was done first and then they scrambled to come up with the Hood/Hill deal afterwards. It’s just as likely that they had multiple scenarios they were working on concurrently and decided that these two were the ones they felt best about and then worked the final hours of the deadline to get them both done. Some logic that as the Lakers deal was just two teams, it was easier to finalize before the more complex three team deal and just leaked first or finished first.
 
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Sir'Dom Pointer said:
Do you really take Russell ahead of him? based on what?
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Personally I'd rather have Nance then guys like Okafur and Russell: just thinking out loud if were doing a re-draft of where Nance would go. Frankly I'm not convinced guys who the Lakers are depending on like Ingram are going to be what they need to win title (Nance OTOH is a guy like Hill IMO whose team will always win games).

Anyway, basically even if you are very liberal with projections about other guys, Nance would fall somewhere in the 5 to 8 range in his draft. Crazy some other team didn't pounce on him
 
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