Reallistically- How long before will it take to be a top 2-3 seed in the East?

gourimoko said:

I have to honestly ask, you'll pass for what .. exactly? Like, who do you think would come down the line, years down the line to the Cavs? And with the new flattened out lottery odds, whose to say we even get a #1 pick over the next 5 years?

Guys, next years draft doesn't look so great; and we were a lottery team for years and completely failed to scout talent.. We are now very much in the post-LeBron era.

If we can get a guy like Irving to sign a max deal, then I think we should do it. I don't think it'd be reasonable to prefer tanking versus getting a legit franchise player.

But I could be wrong. Definitely open to discussion about it?

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Ill pass because Kyrie will be 30 hes already breaking down physically and he's not a winning player on his own. If other stars were gonna lineup to come with him sure. But this is Cleveland even if he comes back who will come with him?

Without LeBron and KLove we saw what he could do. In Boston is he really needed? Best record with Isiah deep playoff run with Rozier. Kyrie can score with the best of them but that is literally all he can do. He doesn't defend and in 3 years he likely won't be able to get to the bucket as well as he currently does. So let me ask you why do you want a 30 year old stat padder in 3 years?

Just say No to Uncle Drew. His knee is shot.
Don't like the Tank until the end of the season when all hope is lost and you're just moving for draft position.

gourimoko said:

I have to honestly ask, you'll pass for what .. exactly? Like, who do you think would come down the line, years down the line to the Cavs? And with the new flattened out lottery odds, whose to say we even get a #1 pick over the next 5 years?

Guys, next years draft doesn't look so great; and we were a lottery team for years and completely failed to scout talent.. We are now very much in the post-LeBron era.

If we can get a guy like Irving to sign a max deal, then I think we should do it. I don't think it'd be reasonable to prefer tanking versus getting a legit franchise player.

But I could be wrong. Definitely open to discussion about it?

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Maybe next year? He doesn't have a contract yet with the Celtics...and he and Jimmy Butler might want to team up somewhere?

We tank for 1 year, get a high lottery pick, and then we sign Kyrie and Jimmy after next season?

It'd be one hell of a story for Uncle Drew to prove he's a superstar on LBJ's level. Kind of like when his mentor Kobe proved he could win 2 ships for LA without Shaq.

I'd be down.

NMCav said:

Ill pass because Kyrie will be 30

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Bro, Kyrie is 26. He'd be 27 when he signed with the Cavs. He wouldn't be 30 until his next contract.

NMCav said:

hes already breaking down physically and he's not a winning player on his own.

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To be clear, I'm talking about bringing Irving and his BFF Jimmy Butler. They've said for years they want to play together, and everyone thinks they'd do it on the Knicks -- but the Knicks won't have cap space. The Cavs, unexpectedly, will have space for both of them.

You pair Jimmy Butler and Kyrie Irving and that's one hell of a backcourt; maybe the best backcourt in the NBA.

NMCav said:

If other stars were gonna lineup to come with him sure. But this is Cleveland even if he comes back who will come with him?

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Jimmy Butler... They're both free agents at the same time.

NMCav said:

Without LeBron and KLove we saw what he could do. In Boston is he really needed?

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I think he leaves Boston personally. I get the sense that he dislikes it there, and like you said, is he really needed? I think they'll try to trade him before the deadline, personally.

NMCav said:

Best record with Isiah deep playoff run with Rozier. Kyrie can score with the best of them but that is literally all he can do.

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Scoring is kind of important to win games though.

NMCav said:

He doesn't defend and in 3 years he likely won't be able to get to the bucket as well as he currently does.

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Not sure what you mean; Kyrie's game isn't based on his athleticism and you're assuming he's 4 years older than he is.

NMCav said:

So let me ask you why do you want a 30 year old stat padder in 3 years?

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Kyrie is 26; I'd want him to sign when he's a free agent, which is next off-season; he barely be 27 years old

Additionally, the term "stat-padder" doesn't make sense when talking about Irving. Irving "scores with the best of them," that includes LeBron. You're not padding stats when you can score with the best of them.

Now if you're saying he's one-dimensional, I would agree, 90% of the time, Irving is one-dimensional. But he has the ability to take his game to higher level in the playoffs, which we've seen numerous times. He's not consistent in this regard, but, he's still one of the best scorers in the league.

Moreover, we're talking about Cleveland, Ohio. Kyrie Irving is a superstar.

Again... Cleveland, Ohio ... Superstar talent.... Those two things don't usually go together.

Lastly, after The Decision, the Cavs have had 3 first overall picks and 2 #4 picks; with that, we drafted Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, and Andrew Wiggins over 4 years time.

That's pathetic.

So if you're asking me would I rather go with Irving+ over that? Yeah, I'll roll with Irving and a squad built around him rather than going down that road again.

Seems pretty clear that the cavs should start trading thier “win now” assets for things with a longer shelf life, like draft picks, rookie contracts and affordable free agents.

But at the same time, the Cavs dont want to rip things down as far as the 2016 Browns or the 2011 Cavs, which create such a black hole of losing that it’s hard to escape.

It would be nice to keep Kev so that the team can win some games, but the Cavs also have to pay a draft pick to Atlanta if the dont have a top 10 pick. Seems like the Cavs lose out on two draft picks if Kev walks as a free agent after the Cavs narrowly miss the playoffs. Thats not a good way to start a rebuild, even if the draft class is kind of weak.

Douglar said:

Seems pretty clear that the cavs should start trading thier “win now” assets for things with a longer shelf life, like draft picks, rookie contracts and affordable free agents.

But at the same time, the Cavs dont want to rip things down as far as the 2016 Browns or the 2011 Cavs, which create such a black hole of losing that it’s hard to escape.

It would be nice to keep Kev so that the team can win some games, but the Cavs also have to pay a draft pick to Atlanta if the dont have a top 10 pick. Seems like the Cavs lose out on two draft picks if Kev walks as a free agent after the Cavs narrowly miss the playoffs. Thats not a good way to start a rebuild, even if the draft class is kind of weak.

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Kyrie's draft class was incredibly week, but we still got an all-star and a serviceable center out of it.

TitleTown said:

Maybe next year? He doesn't have a contract yet with the Celtics...and he and Jimmy Butler might want to team up somewhere?

We tank for 1 year, get a high lottery pick, and then we sign Kyrie and Jimmy after next season?

It'd be one hell of a story for Uncle Drew to prove he's a superstar on LBJ's level. Kind of like when his mentor Kobe proved he could win 2 ships for LA without Shaq.

I'd be down.

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My thoughts exactly....

He's not staying with the Celtics, IMHO. The Knicks won't have much cap space (not enough to sign two max deals). And if he and Butler wanna sign up, the Cavs would be one of a very limited number of teams able to accommodate them.

It's why I've suggested we extend Love's contract, tank for 1 year, get a high lottery pick, and then you've got Love, Sexton, Osman, Zizic, a Top 3-5 pick, and two max slots.

IF Irving would agree to it, and IF Butler would agree to it; you'd have a Big 3 with a pretty nice collection of trade assets to trade out for veterans. You'd also have the rising cap the following year to help with the MLE.

And.. you're out of the repeater tax....

Like, why not?

gourimoko said:

Bro, Kyrie is 26. He'd be 27 when he signed with the Cavs. He wouldn't be 30 until his next contract.



To be clear, I'm talking about bringing Irving and his BFF Jimmy Butler. They've said for years they want to play together, and everyone thinks they'd do it on the Knicks -- but the Knicks won't have cap space. The Cavs, unexpectedly, will have space for both of them.

You pair Jimmy Butler and Kyrie Irving and that's one hell of a backcourt; maybe the best backcourt in the NBA.



Jimmy Butler... They're both free agents at the same time.



I think he leaves Boston personally. I get the sense that he dislikes it there, and like you said, is he really needed? I think they'll try to trade him before the deadline, personally.



Scoring is kind of important to win games though.



Not sure what you mean; Kyrie's game isn't based on his athleticism and you're assuming he's 4 years older than he is.



Kyrie is 26; I'd want him to sign when he's a free agent, which is next off-season; he barely be 27 years old

Additionally, the term "stat-padder" doesn't make sense when talking about Irving. Irving "scores with the best of them," that includes LeBron. You're not padding stats when you can score with the best of them.

Now if you're saying he's one-dimensional, I would agree, 90% of the time, Irving is one-dimensional. But he has the ability to take his game to higher level in the playoffs, which we've seen numerous times. He's not consistent in this regard, but, he's still one of the best scorers in the league.

Moreover, we're talking about Cleveland, Ohio. Kyrie Irving is a superstar.

Again... Cleveland, Ohio ... Superstar talent.... Those two things don't usually go together.

Lastly, after The Decision, the Cavs have had 3 first overall picks and 2 #4 picks; with that, we drafted Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, and Andrew Wiggins over 4 years time.

That's pathetic.

So if you're asking me would I rather go with Irving+ over that? Yeah, I'll roll with Irving and a squad built around him rather than going down that road again.

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I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant signing Kyrie in 3 years. Not him signing next offseason. I don't see how it is very realistic when Kyrie begged to get out of CLE and told Jimmy Butler to stay away. But who knows. Brooklyn would also have enough cap space next off season and Kyrie wants to play near home and he grew up a Nets fan not a Knicks fan. So I think people saying Knicks are wrong as well but I don't see them choosing CLE.

NMCav said:

I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant signing Kyrie in 3 years. Not him signing next offseason. I don't see how it is very realistic when Kyrie begged to get out of CLE and told Jimmy Butler to stay away. But who knows. Brooklyn would also have enough cap space next off season and Kyrie wants to play near home and he grew up a Nets fan not a Knicks fan. So I think people saying Knicks are wrong as well but I don't see them choosing CLE.

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Cleveland may not be his first choice. But it's not like Brooklyn is swimming in assets. I think the Cavs would be better poised to win sooner than the Nets; personally.

I'm just saying, we may not be the favorites, but I think we'd be a great Plan B if they want to team up..

gourimoko said:

My thoughts exactly....

He's not staying with the Celtics, IMHO. The Knicks won't have much cap space (not enough to sign two max deals). And if he and Butler wanna sign up, the Cavs would be one of a very limited number of teams able to accommodate them.

It's why I've suggested we extend Love's contract, tank for 1 year, get a high lottery pick, and then you've got Love, Sexton, Osman, Zizic, a Top 3-5 pick, and two max slots.

IF Irving would agree to it, and IF Butler would agree to it; you'd have a Big 3 with a pretty nice collection of trade assets to trade out for veterans. You'd also have the rising cap the following year to help with the MLE.

And.. you're out of the repeater tax....

Like, why not?

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Man...the only way I'd take that risk with Love was if Love did some colluding on behalf of the Cavs, and talked Kyrie into this before the trade deadline.

Otherwise, I'm not willing to risk the loss of the assets we'd get in return for trading Love.

TitleTown said:

Man...the only way I'd take that risk with Love was if Love did some colluding on behalf of the Cavs, and talked Kyrie into this before the trade deadline.

Otherwise, I'm not willing to risk the loss of the assets we'd get in return for trading Love.

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Here's how I look at it..

Let's ask ourselves what assets are we getting for Love with one year left on his deal? If we don't think it's much, maybe a late pick, then I dunno if that makes sense.

And with that said, I actually think if you get a team-friendly $30M/yr 4-year extension, Love becomes a much more valuable asset than he is right now.

I also don't think Love hurts the tank squad. Remember, the draft lottery odds have been somewhat flattened out; so it looks like this:

1-3: 14%
4: 12.5%
5: 10.5%
6: <10%

So the Top 4-5 slots are actually not that bad.. Love might keep us from being the worst team in the league, but Sexton/Osman/Love/Nance isn't winning that many games..

gourimoko said:

Here's how I look at it..

Let's ask ourselves what assets are we getting for Love with one year left on his deal? If we don't think it's much, maybe a late pick, then I dunno if that makes sense.

And with that said, I actually think if you get a team-friendly $30M/yr 4-year extension, Love becomes a much more valuable asset than he is right now.

I also don't think Love hurts the tank squad. Remember, the draft lottery odds have been somewhat flattened out; so it looks like this:

1-3: 14%
4: 12.5%
5: 10.5%
6: <10%

So the Top 4-5 slots are actually not that bad.. Love might keep us from being the worst team in the league, but Sexton/Osman/Love/Nance isn't winning that many games..

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If you're right (and we don't know that you are) and the Cavs are getting weak offers for Love, then I really like this idea.

It turns Love into a longer term asset, and we could still do something like shut down Love for an "injury" during the 2nd half of next season.

TitleTown said:

Kyrie's draft class was incredibly week, but we still got an all-star and a serviceable center out of it.

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The 2011 draft class was weak at the top because the guys ultimately taken with those picks... But, that's it.

Kawhi, Kyrie, Klay, TT, Val, Biyombo, Jimmy Butler (end of the first round), Kemba, Morris twins, Tobias Harris, Ken Faried, Reggie Jackson, Mirotic, Cory Joseph, Chandler Parson$$$, IT, rookie Shump, Ew Kanter, Shelvin Mack, Brandon Knight, Bogdanovic, E'Twaun Moore, Vucevic...

Some are journeymen/fringe rotation players at this point, one has one of the worst contracts in the NBA, others are shells of their prime/injured goods, but at one point or the other there were a lot of serviceable guys from 2011 with a fair share of all-stars. Though, the draft didn't really start churning the better players until around the 9th pick.

gourimoko said:

I have to honestly ask, you'll pass for what .. exactly? Like, who do you think would come down the line, years down the line to the Cavs? And with the new flattened out lottery odds, whose to say we even get a #1 pick over the next 5 years?

Guys, next years draft doesn't look so great; and we were a lottery team for years and completely failed to scout talent.. We are now very much in the post-LeBron era.

If we can get a guy like Irving to sign a max deal, then I think we should do it. I don't think it'd be reasonable to prefer tanking versus getting a legit franchise player.

But I could be wrong. Definitely open to discussion about it?

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Love the idea, but help me understand these 2 issues:

1-Did Kyrie want to leave Cleveland because he hated the ENTIRE org, including Dan? Or did he simply leave cause of LeBron? What makes you think there is even a shred of hope that he would be OK coming back here?

2-What happens with Sexton if he actually pans out? If he starts scoring 20+ppg, you are not asking him to come off the bench because of Kyrie. That seems like the quickest way to alienate Sexton.

RuanuLaw said:

Love the idea, but help me understand these 2 issues:

1-Did Kyrie want to leave Cleveland because he hated the ENTIRE org, including Dan? Or did he simply leave cause of LeBron? What makes you think there is even a shred of hope that he would be OK coming back here?

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He got wind that the Cavs were trying to trade him.. the Cavs, like dumbasses, held a straw-poll among the entire staff to ask "Should we trade Kyrie?" And obviously, he heard about it.

Another reason was that he thought LeBron was up to it. He also didn't want to be in James' shadow, etc etc.

My hope is that if James/Gilbert can be repaired, then Kyrie/Gilbert can be repaired. I base that on the fact that now that he's played for the Celtics, and seemingly isn't happy, that maybe he's got some regrets now that he sees the grass isn't greener on the other side?

The Boston market is enormous and he's still unhappy.. So maybe coming back to Cleveland, where he was drafted, and won a championship, finally as THE man, makes sense?

RuanuLaw said:

2-What happens with Sexton if he actually pans out? If he starts scoring 20+ppg, you are not asking him to come off the bench because of Kyrie. That seems like the quickest way to alienate Sexton.

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I don't think Sexton scores 20+ PPG this year; FWIW. Kyrie Irving, one of the best rookies in history, didn't even do that.

I think you trade Sexton for an All-Star if you can get back Irving and Butler in free agency.