Hue Jackson and Todd Haley Fired

Randolphkeys said:

I have little doubt I have spent more time listening to experts break down the shortcongs of Kelly's scheme at the pro level than you have, proximity to local news alone. I'd put a significant amount of money on it.

Among Kelly's problems which led to his return to the college game is controlling the clock on offense. With his reputation as a quick paced offense, he couldn't attract a decent defensive coordinator. Kelly's system takes advantage of 105 players on a college roster. That's almost twice the number allowed in the pros. His defenses would wear out. Kelly also attacked the weakest point of an opponents roster with safe throws. That has been adopted quickly in the pros for several years, and Kelly stopped innovating from there.

This hasn't been an issue for the Rams because they know when to strike for a quick score and when to control the clock. Wade Philips also respects McVey's pedigree in the pros and his control of the playbook. A college coach may not have that unless they also had extensive pro experience at some level.

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Yeah man... all those schematic shortcomings those Bay Area radio guys kept beating you over the head with somehow managed to win 27 games in 3 years and finish with three consecutive top tier offenses (two of them
top 5). Oh by the way, he also had three different QBs starting each year, so you can’t chalk it up to an elite QB carrying a crummy coach either.

Complaining that an offensive system works too quickly and subsequently kills the stamina of the defense is overlooking the fact that it *works* too quickly.

Sean McVay didn’t come from college, so I’m not sure why you’d bring him up at all since the original discussion was that college schemes are becoming more and more prominent in the NFL.

Beyond that, Chip Kelly not being able to hire a quality defensive coordinator has nothing to do with his ability to scheme offensive Xs and Os either, but keep moving those goal posts.

Chip’s two biggest problems...

1. He was/is an absolutely terrible people person who didn’t connect well to professional players and worse than that, never showed any sort of desire to do so. Guys stopped playing hard for him because they didn’t like him, but more importantly they simply didn’t trust or respect him. You can absolutely succeed in the NFL as a coach without being loved, or even liked by your players as long as they respect and trust you (see Belichick). That’s far less of an issue in college for a wide variety of factors, but it just doesn’t play well in the pros at all.

2. He was an awful guy to be in charge of personnel. He jettisoned Shady McCoy, DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin for no other reason than thinking he didn’t need them and with no discernible plan to replace any of them. He bungled the salary cap, handing out contracts to the wrong guys and he blew multiple drafts.

His actual schemes were way down the list of his problems in the pros.

CBBI said:

Chip Kelly's X's and O's weren't the problem. The Eagles ranked 2nd, 5th and 12th in offense in Chip's three years in Philadelphia.

He had a disaster year in San Fran, but considering the year before he got there they were dead last in offense and the year after he left they were dead last in offense until Jimmy G got there, it seems like it was a personnel problem more than a coaching issue considering three consecutive coaches all had the same problem.

Chip was a horrendous failure as a general manager and wasn't a guy who connected well with players, but to act like his schemes weren't effective is pretty false.

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His players hated him (the anti Hue Jackson), but to go back to my original point. What about Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier or Nick Sabin? They all failed in the NFL and were supperior in college. College and the NFL are apples and oranges. To say Harbaugh didn’t have a good NFL record is categorically false. The 49ers were pretty shitty when he got there and pretty shitty after he left.

The Voice said:

His players hated him (the anti Hue Jackson), but to go back to my original point. What about Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier or Nick Sabin? They all failed in the NFL and were supperior in college. College and the NFL are apples and oranges. To say Harbaugh didn’t have a good NFL record is categorically false. The 49ers were pretty shitty when he got there and pretty shitty after he left.

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College and the pros are very different in a lot of ways. I completely agree. There’s all kinds of major differences with how you can motivate and lead young men v. highly paid adults. There’s major differences in roster size, practice time and personnel changes. There’s major differences with how you find coaches to fill your staff and so much more.

But speaking strictly from a scheme standpoint, the NFL and college football are closer than they’ve ever been and the gap is only getting more narrow.

CBBI said:

Yeah man... all those schematic shortcomings those Bay Area radio guys kept beating you over the head with somehow managed to win 27 games in 3 years and finish with three consecutive top tier offenses (two of them
top 5). Oh by the way, he also had three different QBs starting each year, so you can’t chalk it up to an elite QB carrying a crummy coach either.

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Keep hanging your hat on 2013 and 2014 and I'll go back to talking up the merits of Brian Hoyer. Sometimes something that was good five years ago just gets figured out. Colin Kaepernick would be able to explain it better than I could but he is busy making bank wearing Shaft's clothes on commercials.

CBBI said:

Complaining that an offensive system works too quickly and subsequently kills the stamina of the defense is overlooking the fact that it *works* too quickly.

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Kelly carried way too many offensive players and had a shallow defensive roster. He needed that complex offensive roster to run his multiple looks. Meanwhile McVay runs everything through the 11 grouping so he can keep a defensive heavy roster of 53.

CBBI said:

Sean McVay didn’t come from college, so I’m not sure why you’d bring him up at all since the original discussion was that college schemes are becoming more and more prominent in the NFL.

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Just covered it.

CBBI said:

Beyond that, Chip Kelly not being able to hire a quality defensive coordinator has nothing to do with his ability to scheme offensive Xs and Os either, but keep moving those goal posts.

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It only has nothing to do with it when you can't counter-argue it, bro. Nobody wanted to run a defense that didn't have a defense heavy roster. Defense has to be on the field more often if the offense doesn't have the ability to control the ball.

CBBI said:

1. He was/is an absolutely terrible people person who didn’t connect well to professional players and worse than that, never showed any sort of desire to do so. Guys stopped playing hard for him because they didn’t like him, but more importantly they simply didn’t trust or respect him. You can absolutely succeed in the NFL as a coach without being loved, or even liked by your players as long as they respect and trust you (see Belichick). That’s far less of an issue in college for a wide variety of factors, but it just doesn’t play well in the pros at all.

2. He was an awful guy to be in charge of personnel. He jettisoned Shady McCoy, DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin for no other reason than thinking he didn’t need them and with no discernible plan to replace any of them. He bungled the salary cap, handing out contracts to the wrong guys and he blew multiple drafts.

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I actually agree with all this as well. It isn't an either or situation.

To put it another way, I have no idea if Lincoln Riley can be a successful NFL coach.

I have no clue how well he would motivate grown men, many of them making more money than him.

I have no clue what kind of staff he could put together given the fact that he’s never worked in the NFL and has very few pro contacts.

I have no clue if he would know anything about evaluating NFL talent, making NFL personnel moves or if he could even learn how to do either one.

No one knows. He’s never done any of those things. There’s inherent risk in hiring any college coach for all of the reasons listed above and more.

What I am wholeheartedly confident in is that the offensive scheme Riley runs right now at Oklahoma would very much translate to the NFL. Maybe not every single play, but most of the core elements he could put on an NFL field right now and have success.

The Voice said:

His players hated him (the anti Hue Jackson), but to go back to my original point. What about Butch Davis, Steve Spurrier or Nick Sabin? They all failed in the NFL and were supperior in college. College and the NFL are apples and oranges. To say Harbaugh didn’t have a good NFL record is categorically false. The 49ers were pretty shitty when he got there and pretty shitty after he left.

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In defense of Butch Davis.....

The mistake with him was putting the cart before the horse. He put on a team in 2001, 2002 and parts of 2003 that were consistently competitive within the NFL in times we've only seen in little spurts. He also hired well in the coordinator department (Arians, Fazio were both solid)

Davis also...HAD NFL experience. He was a defensive line coach for the Cowboys for a Super Bowl, and then their Defensive coordinator for another.

The lack of a front office structure and having him "manage" it all were mistakes. He was a decent coach though.

Randolphkeys said:

Keep hanging your hat on 2013 and 2014 and I'll go back to talking up the merits of Brian Hoyer. Sometimes something that was good five years ago just gets figured out. Colin Kaepernick would be able to explain it better than I could but he is busy making bank wearing Shaft's clothes on commercials.

Kelly carried way too many offensive players and had a shallow defensive roster. He needed that complex offensive roster to run his multiple looks. Meanwhile McVay runs everything through the 11 grouping so he can keep a defensive heavy roster of 53.

It only has nothing to do with it when you can't counter-argue it, bro. Nobody wanted to run an offense that didn't have a defense heavy roster. Defense has to be on the field more often if the offense doesn't have the ability to control the ball.

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Again, the majority of the stuff you’re complaining about is not X’s & O’s related.

“He carried too many offensive players” - that’s Kelly the GM failing.

“He didn’t hire a good DC” - that’s Kelly’s lack of NFL contacts and inability to fill a competent staff.

Both of those things are true, but they have nothing to do with his offensive plays and schemes working/not working.

Kelly did four years in the NFL, three of those years his offenses were statistically really good.

Was he was bad at a LOT of the other aspects of the job? Absolutely. But again, his schemes, his X’s & O’s, his play calling were all way down the list of reasons why he failed.

Take Chip Kelly’s exact offensive playbook and philosophy (high tempo, heavy shotgun, mesh passing concepts) and give it to an organization that has a quality GM who can continuously find/retain talent and a coach that has the respect of his players and it absolutely would work.

The two main reasons Chip failed because he was awful at making personnel decisions which ultimately led to the 2014 roster being weaker than the 2013 roster and the 2015 roster being weaker than the 2014 roster. And most important of all, he was just terrible at motivating/connecting to his players to the point where they openly hated him and didn’t want to play hard for him.

You could have the greatest scheme in the world and you’re still going to fail if you’re that bad at the other elements of the job.

CBBI said:

To put it another way, I have no idea if Lincoln Riley can be a successful NFL coach.

I have no clue how well he would motivate grown men, many of them making more money than him.

I have no clue what kind of staff he could put together given the fact that he’s never worked in the NFL and has very few pro contacts.

I have no clue if he would know anything about evaluating NFL talent, making NFL personnel moves or if he could even learn how to do either one.

No one knows. He’s never done any of those things. There’s inherent risk in hiring any college coach for all of the reasons listed above and more.

What I am wholeheartedly confident in is that the offensive scheme Riley runs right now at Oklahoma would very much translate to the NFL. Maybe not every single play, but most of the core elements he could put on an NFL field right now and have success.

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I think one thing that would help Riley immensely here is that Baker Mayfield respects him, and the players respect Baker.

Hue has his team battling game in and game out, the players also love him and cherish getting a win for him. Maybe the fans need to share the same love instead of hate after hate, nitpick after nitpick. I get the hate on Gregg and Haley, playcalling is very suspect through long periods, but with a real kicker Hue Jackson is at best 5-0, at worst 4-1, and the Browns are the talk of the league, and country

Real Deal said:

Hue has his team battling game in and game out, the players also love him and cherish getting a win for him. Maybe the fans need to share the same love instead of hate after hate, nitpick after nitpick. I get the hate on Gregg and Haley, playcalling is very suspect through long periods, but with a real kicker Hue Jackson is at best 5-0, at worst 4-1, and the Browns are the talk of the league, and country

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What are people missing? I've bagged on hue, but the players love this guy. I get that he has wtf moments, but damn, the players love him.

Norm said:

What are people missing? I've bagged on hue, but the players love this guy. I get that he has wtf moments, but damn, the players love him.

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I could give a shit how much the players love a coach if he's actively costing us games with idiotic decisions and a total lack of preparation. You give them a coach who isn't terrible next year and they make the playoffs and I guarantee you they'll love that guy too.

Real Deal said:

Hue has his team battling game in and game out, the players also love him and cherish getting a win for him. Maybe the fans need to share the same love instead of hate after hate, nitpick after nitpick. I get the hate on Gregg and Haley, playcalling is very suspect through long periods, but with a real kicker Hue Jackson is at best 5-0, at worst 4-1, and the Browns are the talk of the league, and country

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3-33-1.

BMAN said:

3-33-1.

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That's weird, you're a more positive, optimistic poster in the Indians section.

Jack Brickman said:

I could give a shit how much the players love a coach if he's actively costing us games with idiotic decisions and a total lack of preparation. You give them a coach who isn't terrible next year and they make the playoffs and I guarantee you they'll love that guy too.

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That's kinda the point......

Even with the record, the shit each of the past few weeks? The locker room isn't being lost. Wtf are we missing?