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2023-24 Season | Game #45 | Pistons @ Cavs | Jan. 31, 2024 | 7:00 p.m.

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Kuiper said:
World B. Free had 22 games of 35 or more in 4 seasons with the Cavs. If he had played with a 3 point line and the types of fouls called on drives to the basket, he would have been on this list.
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World PLAYED with a 3-point line, for most of his career, including all of his years with the Cavs.
 
KilgoreTrout said:
World PLAYED with a 3-point line, for most of his career, including all of his years with the Cavs.
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Sure but in a time were even the best shooters to 3-4 three point attempts max per game.

Its crazy to see what used to constitute “high volume 3PA shooting”
 
I’m not sure what we were expecting tonight. We were almost certainly going to take a step back integrating DG & Mobley. We will never be as good defensively as we were with Okoro & Wade in the starting lineup alongside Allen. Two excellent perimeter defenders, one perfectly suited for smaller guards & the other for taller wings, backed by a mobile shotblocker and flanked by two good defenders in Strus & DM is just better than our regular starting 5 is capable of being. The plan is that what we gain in offense more than makes up for what we lose on defense. But the offense was always going to take a while for DG & Mobley to fit back in. We were lucky we had a team accomplished at losing tonight or we probably lose this game. And we are even more lucky that Memphis’ starting lineup is injured and SA is tanking. But it’s not about tonight, those 2 games or even the next month. It’s about where this team is in March & April. If the positional redundancy issues haven’t resolved by the playoffs then we will likely go down in the first round again and Koby has some huge decisions to make this summer.
 
MirORich said:
Genuine question, I’m not arguing for the sake of it, didn’t someone (@KI4MVP ?) post several stats and metrics that countered the argument of DG/DM combo being bad defensively or the Cavs being bad defensively when they’re both on the floor?

Not sure what thread it was in, but seemed to build a strong stat based argument worth seeing/reading since sometimes anecdotal outliers can stick in our memories longer
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Here are some:

- including tonight, lineups with Mitchell and Garland have a net rating of +8.8 per 100 possessions and a defensive rating of 106.1 this season

- last season, those numbers were +8.0 and 109.7

- both net ratings and defensive ratings are better than the team as a whole over the respective seasons. That is to be expected for the net ratings—you have a material fit issue if not—but those defensive ratings should be a source of some comfort
 
Dr No said:
I’m not sure what we were expecting tonight. We were almost certainly going to take a step back integrating DG & Mobley. We will never be as good defensively as we were with Okoro & Wade in the starting lineup alongside Allen. Two excellent perimeter defenders, one perfectly suited for smaller guards & the other for taller wings, backed by a mobile shotblocker and flanked by two good defenders in Strus & DM is just better than our regular starting 5 is capable of being. The plan is that what we gain in offense more than makes up for what we lose on defense. But the offense was always going to take a while for DG & Mobley to fit back in. We were lucky we had a team accomplished at losing tonight or we probably lose this game. And we are even more lucky that Memphis’ starting lineup is injured and SA is tanking. But it’s not about tonight, those 2 games or even the next month. It’s about where this team is in March & April. If the positional redundancy issues haven’t resolved by the playoffs then we will likely go down in the first round again and Koby has some huge decisions to make this summer.
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Did we lose in the first round last year due to positional redundancy?

Or did we lose because:

- our bigs got outmuscled and out rebounded
- we didn’t have shooters in the lineup like Strus, Niang, Merrill to create better spacing for Mitchell and Garland
- it was the first playoff series for several of our main guys and first together as a team
- without shooters, we played one of the better defensive scheme head coach in the ECF
 
Cassity14 said:
The concerns around the original starting 5 were still evident in this one.

More than a couple instances where the lack of space was apparent - either leading to turnovers tossed into a congested lane or a second defender to help on the roll man.

Thought the Cavs came out in the first moving the ball very well. Garland especially reverted to bad habits in the 3rd, hopefully because he was tired.
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We're game two into Mobley missing six week and game one into Garland missing six weeks and just resuming eating whole foods..

I'd say the judgments would be more fair post All-Star break when these guys and these lineups have time to acclimate more than just 24-48 hours...

To address your points:
- The starting five had an offensive rating of 142.1 (spacing issues be damned)
- They had 7 assists to 2 turnovers
- They posted a 3PT rate of 42%

They scored 27 points in 9 minutes together tonight -- don't think the offense was as much as the issue...
 
  • Okoro and Merrill are fun matchup players to have come off the bench. Merrill can light up a scoreboard quick and completely tilt the floor. Meanwhile, Okoro can shut down an opposing player quick and completely take a player off the floor. Both can be dangerous when used right and both contributed in a major way. They combined for 25 bench points on the night.
  • Meshing the original starting lineup with the emergence of other players and other players may take some time but credit to JB Bickerstaff for working through them. You can see he’s trying some combinations, and is quick to make adjustments based on how the lineup is working. Case in point: LeVert was the lone ball-handler for the last three minutes in the first quarter. This is a look that has struggled before and while the Cavs win those minutes by one point, there was a certain uneasiness to the offense one might expect by asking a basket getter to run the offense. Seeing this, JB quickly pivoted to including Garland to start the second quarter.
  • Case in point part 2: Similar situation in the second quarter where the Garland, Merrill, LeVert, Niang and Mobley lineup was a sieve defensively. JB subbed in Okoro and Mitchell and then Allen a few minutes later. After scoring 20 points in 5 minutes, the Pistons scored 14 points in the final 7 minutes.
 
To be fair to Garland and Mobley, we did let Washington shoot like 47% from 3 in back to back games a few weeks ago. But I do think the combo puts us at a disadvantage. Especially because we don't necessarily have a large small forward. So we're pretty undersized in 2/3 positions. And Mobley has gone through a slight regression/has not evolved into the shooter we need him to be to spread the floor. Those are the two issues with our starting lineup. One defensive issue and one offensive one. If we take away the defensive issues with Garland, we can win games with more defensive lineups. If we replace Mobley, we lose some defense but likely replace him with a player who allows us to outscore the opposition. I'd say if we trade Garland for a two way small forward, moving Mitchell to the 1, having Struss at the 2 and a small forward who isn't small at the 3...
 
The Pistons, after the trade with Washington, are playing more like the team I expected them to be after getting Cade back. Ivey looks more like he belongs, Gallo and Mascala are like having 2 extra Bogis on their team, and Bogdanovic is the MOST annoying player on Detroit. they got the doo-doo out of the lineup and now they can play more functional basketball.

A few defensive lapses, but I was encouraged by seeing DG play like DG, yet the offense not changing. The ball is moving still for the most part. Defense lapsed with a few rotational changes.

Donovan was excellent. It almost looks like he listens to Rubber Rim Job pod and heard the suggestions to go Jimmy Butler with it.

The defensive stand to close the game was excellent. Jarrett Allen pulling off double-double #16 while standing his ground late in the game was a great thing to see.

Isaac Okoro continues to be a great connecting player for this team.

Also liked seeing that we got a few good minutes of Sam Merrill and that JBB didn't quit on including him (or Dean Wade) despite how the game was going at points. Perhaps a 10-man rotation is going to be a reality after all. JBB timeouts getting better as well.

A back-to-back with a scrappy Grizzlies team could very well be an upset. But we'll see. End the first half with a 7-point lead, end the game with a 7-point lead.
 
Smooth said:
We're game two into Mobley missing six week and game one into Garland missing six weeks and just resuming eating whole foods..

I'd say the judgments would be more fair post All-Star break when these guys and these lineups have time to acclimate more than just 24-48 hours...

To address your points:
- The starting five had an offensive rating of 142.1 (spacing issues be damned)
- They had 7 assists to 2 turnovers
- They posted a 3PT rate of 42%

They scored 27 points in 9 minutes together tonight -- don't think the offense was as much as the issue...
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Hey man, I hear you, but it’s worth pointing out.

I don’t particularly care how many games back it’s been because this isn’t a new observation. If anything, that would qualify the positive differences we saw (that I pointed out), but I think that’s equally silly.

27 points in 9 minutes isn’t an absurd number in 2024, particularly against the worst team in the league. The concerns that have been expressed were still there, even with improvements.

Mobley has to keep taking open 3s. He took one last night and passed up 1-2 more. Has to let it fly.
 
Smooth said:
  • Okoro and Merrill are fun matchup players to have come off the bench. Merrill can light up a scoreboard quick and completely tilt the floor. Meanwhile, Okoro can shut down an opposing player quick and completely take a player off the floor. Both can be dangerous when used right and both contributed in a major way. They combined for 25 bench points on the night.
  • Meshing the original starting lineup with the emergence of other players and other players may take some time but credit to JB Bickerstaff for working through them. You can see he’s trying some combinations, and is quick to make adjustments based on how the lineup is working. Case in point: LeVert was the lone ball-handler for the last three minutes in the first quarter. This is a look that has struggled before and while the Cavs win those minutes by one point, there was a certain uneasiness to the offense one might expect by asking a basket getter to run the offense. Seeing this, JB quickly pivoted to including Garland to start the second quarter.
  • Case in point part 2: Similar situation in the second quarter where the Garland, Merrill, LeVert, Niang and Mobley lineup was a sieve defensively. JB subbed in Okoro and Mitchell and then Allen a few minutes later. After scoring 20 points in 5 minutes, the Pistons scored 14 points in the final 7 minutes.
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Overall it has been a good run by JBB. As MiroRich stated that this was the perfect game to exporting experiment with different lineups. The one thing that we should see less of is the Caris PG lineup. You mentioned the issue with it twice in the full recap. End of the 1st quarter and end of third.

  • And guess what type of lineup saw that small Pistons run at the end of the third? A LeVert as the only ball-handler lineup.
If JBB is continuing to grow he will see this option as a big issue. This is why many of us clamor for CPJ or a backup PG minutes when DG was out. Now that he has come back, there should be less times with no DG/DM on the court to get others involved.

Caris a scorer not a director as a pg should be. Unless we find the perfect fit in a trade he will be here through the end of the year atleast. Keep putting him as your secondary ball handler to see him thrive.
 
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