1988-89: Into The Past - Compared to Now

[rabman_gold]

This is a homage to a team of the past, before a "Chosen One" rewrote the history books.​

I've seen some talk on here about similar teams to the past, but no full-blown comparison. So I'm taking the liberty to directly compare this young team to one of the better built Cavs teams in its history (before LeBron): The Late-80s/Early 90s Cavs Teams (managed by the great Wayne Embry, coached by the great Lenny Wilkens).

/Big post incoming. Read at your discretion./

(Original Image provided by CavsHistory.com (Click Me))

That era of teams is (by my own admission) a team from before my re-collection. But I've read the books. I've seen the footage. I know the results, and why things happened the way they did. These teams are incredibly similar. In fact, one could say the way they're built, history does have a way to repeat itself. And people (older fans and new) may enjoy the ride as a result. So, let's get right into it:

A gigantic amount of moves were made by both eras to set up the building blocks.​

We'll start with the 1986-1989 core:​

Who the Cavs acquired	How
Brad Daugherty	1st overall pick of 1986 Previously traded Roy Hinson, an 6-9 starter, to the Sixers
Ron Harper	8th overall pick of 1986
Mark Price	25th overall pick (2nd round) of 1986 Acquired in trade with Mavericks
"Hot Rod" Williams	Previously drafted in 1985 Did not play rookie year due to college scandal
Craig Ehlo	Signed as free agent midway through 1986-87 regular season
Larry Nance, Mike Sanders	Acquired through trade during the 1988 Trade Deadline: Traded Kevin Johnson (their 1987 draft pick), Tyrone Corbin, Mark West, future draft pick Dan Majerle, future draft pick Dean Garrett, and future draft Greg Grant Also received Randolph Keys (on-again, off-again Cav; not-related-in-any-way-to-the-forum-administrator-of-RCF-Forums)

This team, more or less, was the core of this era.​

1. Unlike most of their other seasons, the 1988-89 season was one of their mostly relatively healthy years; their top 7 players (Daugherty, Price, Nance, Harper, Williams, Ehlo, and Sanders) all played 73 or more games.
2. This team still did not have a lot of depth. So when certain players were injured during other seasons (like Daugherty and Nance in 1990, and Price in 1991), they had either a short post-season (1990) or no post-season (1991). It didn't help that they moved key guys afterwards (like losing Sanders in free agency in 1989, and trading Harper 7 games into 1989-90). But I digress.

And now, the current team:​

Current players (as of the final 2021-22 team) acquired	How (in chronological order)
Kevin Love, Cedi Osman	Holdovers from the 2017-18 season (LeBron's final year of 2nd Cavs campaign), extended both (Love in 2018, Cedi in 2019)
Collin Sexton	Acquired from Kyrie Irving Trade of August 2017 (as a draft pick) Originally received Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and bonus 2nd rounder (for compensation for Isaiah's injury) First significant piece of the new era
Darius Garland	5th overall pick from 2019 Draft
Issac Okoro	5th overall pick from 2020 Draft
Jarrett Allen	Acquired from Nets in 4-team Mega-Trade of January 2021 Also received Taurean Prince, and sent out Dante Exum (who originally was acquired from the Jazz for Jordan Clarkson and 2 draft picks) in December 2019 Jordan Clarkson and Larry Nance Jr. were originally acquired during the 2018 Trade Deadline in a trade with the Lakers for Channing Frye, Isaiah Thomas, and a draft pick
Evan Mobley	3rd overall pick from 2021 Draft
Lauri Markkanen	Acquired in sign-and-trade with the Bulls in 3-team trade in August 2021 Sent out Larry Nance Jr. and a 2023 second rounder
Caris LeVert	Acquired in trade with Pacers Sent out Ricky Rubio and 2 draft picks (a first and a second) Ricky Rubio was originally acquired from the Wolves for Taurean Prince and a 2nd rounder in August 2021

And this team I present, is what it was this past year.​

1. This team was mostly put together by Koby Altman (a relatively newcomer) after the train wreck that was the 2017-18 season.
2. It took a bit more time to become what it was, but that might be because of the extreme patience (and health) from the ownership group. Whereas the team we saw 30+ years ago came together in 2.5 years, this team was built in almost double the time.
3. As you can see, the bits and pieces came in chains. One piece turned into another, and part of that piece became another, etc. etc.
4. And unlike the previous era, this one can still be made further and further, because this team still had some assets left. And pieces that can be further integrated. But that's for later.

Each team is vastly similar in their approach.​

The late 1980s team was stacked with offensively talented (and smart) players who were taught to play great defense as a team. The 2022 team had some decent defense as well but unable to bring out their full potential due to significant injuries and changes via mid-season roster.

And certain players on each team are very similar despite a difference in nearly 3 decades of seasons.​

Current Players (who filled roles)	Past Players (who were similar)	Reasons for Comparisons
Evan Mobley	Brad Daugherty	7 footers Amazing offensive skills Impact on the game Mobley still has room to grow (both offensively and defensively) to became the same all-star that Daugherty was, if not better
Darius Garland	Mark Price	Lead guards Great shooters All-stars Primary facilitators (though Garland's was unlocked due to Sexton's early-season injury)
Kevin Love/Jarrett Allen (work with me here!)	Larry Nance	Though neither was an all-star level like Nance: Though a shell of his former self, Love had great impact offensively (at 6th-man-of-year status) While Allen was a primary rim-protector (and became a replacement all-star as well) Although, Allen could become something much different that the late 80s team didn't have, possibly along the lines of something that the 70s team had: Jim Chones In the end, Love and Allen together helped fill the role of Nance Sr.
Lauri Markkanen	"Hot Rod" Williams	Near 7 footers You can say that Lauri was the "anti-Williams" Williams filled in behind Daugherty and Nance (and rarely played some small forward) While Lauri was forced to fill the void at small forward This past year, he couldn't defend as well as a big, but did provide the spacing that was direly missing and held his own against opposing small forwards
Caris LeVert	Ron Harper	The closest comparison, barely... Though LeVert was acquired mid-season Then missed the majority of the second half of the season to injury (so he never got the chance to prove anything) The only chance to prove himself with the entire starting group was for a whopping 22 minutes of a play-in elimination game
Cedi Osman	Craig Ehlo	A role of a sniper (though Ehlo didn't shoot it much, he did win a X-mas game with a three pointer) Also providing a "veteran's hand" as one of the older players (though Osman's game and mindset was rather two-faced... he may not be here for long)
Issac Okoro	Mike Sanders	These were the guys who were forced to fill the void For Sanders, it was at SF And Okoro, at SG Their games were mostly predicated on defense (though to Okoro's credit, tried to also provide spacing as a corner 3 specialist) Injuries did not help him here...

Both of these teams had promising, but rather abrupt ends to their seasons. But to be fair, had different sets of circumstances.​

The Late 80s Team:​

1. Were only able to put out their full-power roster midway through the 87-88 year after trading for Nance.
2. But two words: Michael Jordan
3. It was bad enough in the 1988 Playoffs when he erupted for 40+ points in each game... Then decided to break Cleveland's hearts in the 1989 Playoffs (poor, poor Ehlo...), and the team that became fodder for Jordan's legendary status as a playoff performer.
4. Even though they won 57 games in 1989, a then-franchise record. Even though they were called by superstar Magic Johnson a "team of the 90s" (paraphrased).

And Then The 2021-22 Team:​

1. Majority of the roster is a very young, like-minded team. Many guys who haven't yet entered their prime. So there's a lot of potential.
2. But they also showed a similar showing to that 88-89 team: A brilliant start that faded into a whimpering end (44 wins and eliminated as a play-in).
3. There were too many conflicting injuries, trades, and circumstances for the team to really click. But there was clearly something that could be seen.

Finally, this is what this current roster has as advantages over the ancient team of long ago:​

1. They are still extremely young.
   1. Six of the players still haven't yet reached their primes. In fact, most of these guys don't turn 25 until midway through this upcoming season.
   2. The previous era only had 2 (Price and Daugherty).
2. Injuries aside (*knocks on wood*), this team has more firepower (barring no change in the previous roster).
   1. In fact, beyond the main 8 guys, they got more guns to work with.
   2. Rubio (who already played here previously, and responsible for a lot of the early success) comes back as a guided hand when he recovers.
   3. Additionally, guys like Dean Wade and Lamar Stevens (who filled in previously), Robin Lopez and Raul Neto (who signed minimum deals, mostly as emergencies). Maybe a guy with one last chance (maybe?), like Windler...
3. For good measure, they drafted a 4 year college player in Ochai Agbaji.
   1. There was a similar prospect that they gave up in the older era to the expansion draft: Dell Curry.
   2. Unlike what could've been with Curry (who produced a decent career and fathered an all-time championship guard), we now have someone to fill that void as a shooter.
   3. Could he become similar to a Reggie Miller-type? Hard to tell, as Agbaji is a late bloomer.
4. Also, while they are still missing a key ingredient, that starting quality small forward, they may eventually fill in that gap through future moves.
   1. Unlike that 1988-89 roster that only had 7 real quality players, we already have 5 of similar quality, plus 3 who might be better to go with our 1st rounder Agbaji.
   2. There's still some bullets in the chamber (expiring salaries, future flexibility, even future players to negotiate with *but not going into that at this point*).

All I can say now is: Learn from the past. Grow into the future.​

Do we have something good now? We'll see. Rabman out *drops mic*

 

[Peacedog]

Great post. 3 big differences between then and now.

1. Evan Mobley. Daugherty was a great player, a perennial all-star. But Mobley projects to be a top 5 player and MVP candidate.
2. No Michael Jordan to deal with. I guess we'll have to get through Giannis. But he's no MJ and will be past his prime when we're ready to make our move.
3. Hopefully, no catastrophically stupid trades are in our future. Ron Harper.

Also, I think Collin Sexton needs to be part of this analysis. Hopefully. Might be the 4th best player on the roster.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Both teams played beautiful basketball (when healthy). Ball movement, team defense, unselfish.

The biggest difference by far is that the 80s Cavaliers played college ball several years. They all entered the league far more developed and polished than our players.

Both teams started out shipwrecked (LeBron leaving and mostly old guys left, Stepien) but recovered quickly due to astute drafting and good trades.

Mobley may end up better than Daugherty but it won’t be easy. Brad was a hall of fame level player (all star every year he wasn’t hurt) who could score very efficiently and was an excellent passer. Nance was a very good forward on both ends of the floor but a notch below Love (although Larry had fewer injury problems).

80s teams was ruined by injuries (esp Brad) and the foolish decision to trade Harper and picks for Danny Ferry. The other bad decision was protecting Mike Sanders instead of Dell Curry, although we did pick up Steve Kerr (then let him go). Jordan’s Bulls were probably too much to overcome in any event.

 

[Mcreek]

For good measure, they drafted a 4 year college player in Ochai Agbaji.

1. There was a similar prospect that they gave up in the older era to the expansion draft: Dell Curry.
2. Unlike what could've been with Curry (who produced a decent career and fathered an all-time championship guard), we now have someone to fill that void as a shooter.
3. Could he become similar to a Reggie Miller-type? Hard to tell, as Agbaji is a late bloomer.

One of Wayne Embrys dumbest moves along with giving away Ron Harper was leaving Dell Curry whom he called “Cruise control” for Curry’s poor defensive skills unprotected in the expansion draft while protecting Mike Sanders. Embry was deeply infatuated with mediocre high character guys like Craig Ehlo , Mike Sanders and Danny Ferry. Had He kept Curry and Harper they could have beaten the Bulls IMO. Bulls had designated shooters like John Paxton and BJ Armstrong. Paxson couldn’t guard anyone either . Curry could have been used in that role despite his defensive issues.

Agbaji has good defensive tools unlike Curry.

I think Jarett Allen is the Larry Nance , Hot Rod Williams of this team though you can make the argument Mobley can too. Mobley and Brad Daugherty are not similar players. Daugherty was a great low post player as centers were in his era. Mobley doesn’t have that skill.

Lauri Markkanen is the player that the Cavz hoped Danny Ferry would be although Ferry wasn’t on this particular 1988-1989 squad.

Okoro is a better player than Mike Sanders who was an undersized four year center at UCLA. Despite the criticism Okoro gets here he has far more upside at age 21 then Sanders who was 27 when he was acquired by the Cavz.

 

[Erbium]

One more similarity; both teams had absolute garbage at SF. Just trotting out nobodies around All Stars for years. Our best lineup talent wise was always playing Nance slightly out of position at the 3 (like Lauri).

Also, the Harper trade was not just bad, it was horrific. Not only did we trade our best SG, averaging 20+ PPG at the time, but we attached two additional first round picks to him. For Danny Ferry. Another PF, when we already had Nance and Hot Rod. Basketball wise It still makes no sense…just like when we had Ehlo guard MJ on the end to the 1989 season on “The Shot” instead of having Harper guard him, who was a far superior defender, especially on MJ.

“The Shot” not going in, and Harper not being associated with his childhood friends in the drug trade could very well been enough to tip the scales to the Cavs being the next team up after the Pistons in that era

 

[B Mac]

That 86 draft man. Just amazing.

 

[Sebastian]

One more similarity; both teams had absolute garbage at SF. Just trotting out nobodies around All Stars for years. Our best lineup talent wise was always playing Nance slightly out of position at the 3 (like Lauri).

Also, the Harper trade was not just bad, it was horrific. Not only did we trade our best SG, averaging 20+ PPG at the time, but we attached two additional first round picks to him. For Danny Ferry. Another PF, when we already had Nance and Hot Rod. Basketball wise It still makes no sense…just like when we had Ehlo guard MJ on the end to the 1989 season on “The Shot” instead of having Harper guard him, who was a far superior defender, especially on MJ.

“The Shot” not going in, and Harper not being associated with his childhood friends in the drug trade could very well been enough to tip the scales to the Cavs being the next team up after the Pistons in that era

Harper was the real key for that team. The heart.

Two-way wing who could score at will and made Jordan work on defense.

Without him the Cavs were too cerebral, too soft and at Jordan's mercy.

If Harper was still on the team in that 1991-1992 ECF, they would have beaten the Bulls and then embarrassed the Blazers.

 

[rabman_gold]

The forum is dead right now, so I'll try injecting some life into it before the season finally starts.

I'm really looking forward to this upcoming year. It's akin to how the Cavs started putting the pieces together after trading for Nance Senior in 1988. This 2022-23 season could be REALLY similar to 1988-89. The biggest difference is the potential improvement from our youngest and the improved amount of depth. Even if Sexton may only come back for the year with the qualifying offer, it's almost like: "signing Kevin Johnson the year after trading him to Phoenix." Depth-wise, even the 1976 team had a leg up on 1989, with 10 guys in the rotation. But 1989 had very good luck health-wise. If J.B. could press the right buttons, there's almost 11 guys who could see major minutes.

If Mobley's trajectory is as similar to Brad's, he's probably an all-star, 18 points and 8 rebounds minimum. If Garland still stays at the level he was at, 18 points and 8 assists is the minimum (Price-level). That's not even including potential breakouts from Markky (standing out in Europe) and Okoro (as a third-year). Plus, a full training camp with all the guys.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[catfish]

Will say forever that there was some kind of mixup and we were supposed to get the draft picks in the Harper trade.
Was heartbroken that we picked dough boy Daugherty over Chris Washburn. Was not a Len Bias fan. Was at the felt forum for the draft and I remember Dennis Rodman being called up to the stage as a second rounder. Driving in the car next day when heard that Bias was dead. Thought it was some kind of joke.

 

[Peacedog]

The forum is dead right now, so I'll try injecting some life into it before the season finally starts.

I'm really looking forward to this upcoming year. It's akin to how the Cavs started putting the pieces together after trading for Nance Senior in 1988. This 2022-23 season could be REALLY similar to 1988-89. The biggest difference is the potential improvement from our youngest and the improved amount of depth. Even if Sexton may only come back for the year with the qualifying offer, it's almost like: "signing Kevin Johnson the year after trading him to Phoenix." Depth-wise, even the 1976 team had a leg up on 1989, with 10 guys in the rotation. But 1989 had very good luck health-wise. If J.B. could press the right buttons, there's almost 11 guys who could see major minutes.

If Mobley's trajectory is as similar to Brad's, he's probably an all-star, 18 points and 8 rebounds minimum. If Garland still stays at the level he was at, 18 points and 8 assists is the minimum (Price-level). That's not even including potential breakouts from Markky (standing out in Europe) and Okoro (as a third-year). Plus, a full training camp with all the guys.

I'm looking forward to it.

Nice post. The Vegas O/U of 41.5 wins for the Cavs this year is the easiest money out there. My pessimistic scenario has this team around 48 wins. 52-55 is more likely.

 

[rabman_gold]

Some thoughts that come to mind (now that we acquired Mitchell).

1. Suddenly, this team now resembles the 1989 team even more!
2. The gap at small forward is now even bigger than before.
3. Mobley and Garland will keep climbing up. They'll both be at Price and Daugherty's level by the end of the season.
4. Allen, rather than the "Larry Nance" of this team, is more like another high level big in Cavs history: Jim Chones.
5. And Mitchell, rather than the "Ron Harper" of this team, is far more like another high-scoring guard on the team: World B. Free.
6. Actually, isn't the trade for Mitchell more like a "reverse-Danny Ferry trade?" Instead, we sent away the Ferry, and got the Harper?
7. For the sake of this post, I'll continue to shove the 1989 Cavs comparisons further down everybody's throats. The table below shows what we have compared to back then:

Role	1988-89	2022-23
All-Star Level Big Man	Daugherty	Mobley
All-Star Level Point Guard	Price	Garland
Defensive Rim-Protector	Nance	Allen (more like Jim Chones)
All-Star Level Scorer	Harper	Mitchell (more like World B. Free)
Hard-Nosed Wing Defender	Sanders	Okoro (more room to grow)
Floor Spacer	Ehlo	Love
Skilled Big off Bench	Williams	- - (Also Love)
Multi-Faceted Scoring Wing	- - None	LeVert
Veteran Point Guard off Bench	Valentine	Rubio
Utility Big off Bench	Rollins, Dudley, AND Hubbard	Lopez

I think this team may be ready for the big time. Just like the 80s, this team also relies on good luck and health to succeed. But besides overlapping skillsets, our current team has maybe 2 more players in way of quality depth. Hopefully JBB won't put too many miles on the top guys and run them down. Could we also have a potential 15 win increase that the 89 team had? We'll see.

 

[jjvors]

Some thoughts that come to mind (now that we acquired Mitchell).

1. Suddenly, this team now resembles the 1989 team even more!
2. The gap at small forward is now even bigger than before.
3. Mobley and Garland will keep climbing up. They'll both be at Price and Daugherty's level by the end of the season.
4. Allen, rather than the "Larry Nance" of this team, is more like another high level big in Cavs history: Jim Chones.
5. And Mitchell, rather than the "Ron Harper" of this team, is far more like another high-scoring guard on the team: World B. Free.
6. Actually, isn't the trade for Mitchell more like a "reverse-Danny Ferry trade?" Instead, we sent away the Ferry, and got the Harper?
7. For the sake of this post, I'll continue to shove the 1989 Cavs comparisons further down everybody's throats. The table below shows what we have compared to back then:

Role	1988-89	2022-23
All-Star Level Big Man	Daugherty	Mobley
All-Star Level Point Guard	Price	Garland
Defensive Rim-Protector	Nance	Allen (more like Jim Chones)
All-Star Level Scorer	Harper	Mitchell (more like World B. Free)
Hard-Nosed Wing Defender	Sanders	Okoro (more room to grow)
Floor Spacer	Ehlo	Love
Skilled Big off Bench	Williams	- - (Also Love)
Multi-Faceted Scoring Wing	- - None	LeVert
Veteran Point Guard off Bench	Valentine	Rubio
Utility Big off Bench	Rollins, Dudley, AND Hubbard	Lopez

I think this team may be ready for the big time. Just like the 80s, this team also relies on good luck and health to succeed. But besides overlapping skillsets, our current team has maybe 2 more players in way of quality depth. Hopefully JBB won't put too many miles on the top guys and run them down. Could we also have a potential 15 win increase that the 89 team had? We'll see.

Good comparison, although I don't agree with everything. Daugherty was the same height as Mobley, but better offensively and not as good defensively. Mobley will likely equal him offensively soon, maybe this year. Allen doesn't have Jim Chones sweet jumper. Chones was like Kevin Love with less range. But Allen and Chones are similar in size. The closest comparison to Nance is Mobley, who's bigger and doesn't yet have the scoring package Nance had.

Phil Hubbard, before his injuries, was a killer rebounder and offensive scorer. But that was like 1986.

 

[Ohioplayer00]

Good comparison, although I don't agree with everything. Daugherty was the same height as Mobley, but better offensively and not as good defensively. Mobley will likely equal him offensively soon, maybe this year. Allen doesn't have Jim Chones sweet jumper. Chones was like Kevin Love with less range. But Allen and Chones are similar in size. The closest comparison to Nance is Mobley, who's bigger and doesn't yet have the scoring package Nance had.

Phil Hubbard, before his injuries, was a killer rebounder and offensive scorer. But that was like 1986.

Chones broken foot cost us trip to the Finals that year. We were in a groove and ready to cruise into the Finals.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Interesting comparison.
Lenny was a Hall of Fame Coach. JB, (and staff), I think are above average, but not Hall of Fame quality.

 

[jjvors]

Chones broken foot cost us trip to the Finals that year. We were in a groove and ready to cruise into the Finals.

Since Boston won that year and we took Boston to 6 games without Chones, I think we would have won the title.