2018 NBA Draft - June 21

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Look, you can form and preconceptions you want about any prospect. In some ways I think it's great you and SirDom found each other. Let's just be accurate here.

Ah?

Mikal needs to be nitpicked.

 

[Nathan S]

Doncic's bigger and stronger than Bagley, but still considered a likely defensive liability by the mainstream because he may not be quick enough to guard PGs. Gotta love it

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

I don't look at weaknesses separately for front court players. I look at players whether they are positive impact players on offense or defense.

His skill set right now immediately translates to offensive success...whether he improves his weaknesses or not.

Comparing Bagley to Thomas Robinson who was a 2 PPG scorer as a freshman is disingenuous...no matter how similar you think they are as players.

Players improve their weaknesses nowadays, and fast. Heck, even players in their 30s improve their 3pt shot nowadays. And just for reference, Bagley was a 40% 3pt shooter from NBA range. Yes, on low volume, but still. He is not a lost cause.

He doesn;t have to be a great switch defender. His rebounding will keep him a positive on the defensive end. Love is a worse defender than him and he even played the 5 this year.

John Collins from Atlanta is a poor man's Bagley and was a big positive in his rookie season. Had a very positive DBPM despite playing on a tanking team and not being known at all for his defense at Wake Forest.

think you are nitpicking him a bit too much.

Again, I'm not talking about his ceiling or most likely outcome. That's not what a prospect's floor is. I don't know how you define a player's floor or if you just meant something else. Of course I'm going to nitpick when talking about their lowest reasonable outcome... that's the point of discussing a floor lol.

I'm not comparing the two players. Just an example of how teams are quicker to move on from raw counting stats now a days and how little it impacts winning in comparison to other skills you can get from a big.

And the idea that Bagley's rebounding will keep him from being a poor defensive player is something I'll never get on board with in today's NBA. Honestly, he's an average defensive rebounder IMO as is. Ridiculous on the offensive glass though.

Ah?

Mikal needs to be nitpicked.

I've seen that you've soured on Mikal. I've actually had Miles ahead of Mikal for awhile now. I still like Mikal though...apparently that's what you're referring to. I have him 7th.

Again, I have 0 idea how you define "floor". That was my original response. How you can discuss a player's floor, which is literally ALL about discussing his worst case scenario, and not "nitpick" their game I do not know. Talking about a guy's strengths and how he has a chance to be this or that has nothing to do with a floor.

You realize he has an 8'9 standing reach, right? I saw that RealGM had a typo where they listed his standing reach at 6'9, which means his arms weren't as long as his head and neck, LOL. For comparison, Draymond has a 8'10 standing reach. It's solid for a forward, probably not what you want at center.

Look, you can form and preconceptions you want about any prospect. In some ways I think it's great you and SirDom found each other. Let's just be accurate here.

Me and him have agreed on probably 95% of players probably lol

And yeah, 8'9" is not good when you're talking about being a plus switch defender. You'd have to have top tier perimeter instincts and fundamentals to make it work at that size, and he's lightyears from that.

 

[Randolphkeys]

And yeah, 8'9" is not good when you're talking about being a plus switch defender. You'd have to have top tier perimeter instincts and fundamentals to make it work at that size, and he's lightyears from that.

Here's everyone's measurements from the combine this year:

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/#!?sort=STANDING_REACH&dir=1&SeasonYear=2018-19

Bagley looks to have an average standing reach for a power forward. Again, Draymond and Kevin Love have 8'10 standing reaches for comparison. Bagley is a much better athlete than both those guys. Looking at this table, SGA's reach at the point guard position is filthy. One reason I'd happily take him at #8 if things dont work out with Carter or Porter.

 

[Nathan S]

Again, I'm not talking about his ceiling or most likely outcome. That's not what a prospect's floor is. I don't know how you define a player's floor or if you just meant something else. Of course I'm going to nitpick when talking about their lowest reasonable outcome... that's the point of discussing a floor lol.

I'm not comparing the two players. Just an example of how teams are quicker to move on from raw counting stats now a days and how little it impacts winning in comparison to other skills you can get from a big.

And the idea that Bagley's rebounding will keep him from being a poor defensive player is something I'll never get on board with in today's NBA. Honestly, he's an average defensive rebounder IMO as is. Ridiculous on the offensive glass though.



I've seen that you've soured on Mikal. I've actually had Miles ahead of Mikal for awhile now. I still like Mikal though...apparently that's what you're referring to. I have him 7th.

Again, I have 0 idea how you define "floor". That was my original response. How you can discuss a player's floor, which is literally ALL about discussing his worst case scenario, and not "nitpick" their game I do not know. Talking about a guy's strengths and how he has a chance to be this or that has nothing to do with a floor.




Me and him have agreed on probably 95% of players probably lol

And yeah, 8'9" is not good when you're talking about being a plus switch defender. You'd have to have top tier perimeter instincts and fundamentals to make it work at that size, and he's lightyears from that.

Out of curiosity, what strengths do you see in Miles defensively relative to Bagley? He seems to have a much worse case of tweener-itis, coupled with similarly below-par defensive instincts.

 

[Cavatt]

Here's everyone's measurements from the combine this year:

https://stats.nba.com/draft/combine-anthro/#!?sort=STANDING_REACH&dir=1&SeasonYear=2018-19

Bagley looks to have an average standing reach for a power forward. Again, Draymond and Kevin Love have 8'10 standing reaches for comparison. Bagley is a much better athlete than both those guys. Looking at this table, SGA's reach at the point guard position is filthy. One reason I'd happily take him at #8 if things dont work out with Carter or Porter.

SGA is the one I will wonder about. I think he will be a very good pro.

 

[Walter White]

I have Knox at #10 overall, in other words if the Cavs draft him part of me will be sweating bullets but I won't trash my living room. Among wings outside of Porter, I have Mikal Bridges first, Knox second, and Miles Bridges third. It wouldn't shock me if three years from now Knox is the best wing out of the three, but those three years of learning will feel pretty long if he isn't aggressive defensively. Can't call Mikal Bridges "soft" then go and compliment Knox heavily. Mikal plays like Thor compared to Knox. How many times were the Cavs burned by drafting on potential that never materialized? I can only support "ridiculous upside" so much after the past two decades of drafts.

I've done a little research on the Bridges', but for the uninformed, who is better? I typically see Mikal ahead of Miles in mocks, but I have seen some where Miles was ahead. And they are almost always within 2 picks of each other so the talent can't be that far off.

But from what I've seen, Mikal looks better but I don't know. I could be wrong because I haven't watched full games. But Mikal looks like an Iggy/Ariza type player at worse with the potential to be a Paul George type player. His form isn't the best, but his shot still looks clean and the percentage's are great and prove that. And most say he is the best defender in the draft by far. But he needs more polish offensively and to prove he can create and get his own shot 1 on 1 to be a great player. For us, we wouldn't need him to do that obviously.

Miles is quick and has a clean shot as well. He looks much better offensively than Mikal as far as getting his own shot. He has a weird body type to me. He looks like he could be a small ball 5 like Draymond because of his bulk. And he looks quick enough to play the 3, but better suited for the 4. But I heard his defense was his big knock, so I don't see the small ball 5 in that case. He just looks like more of a go-to scorer than Mikal right now, although I'm sure Mikal can develop it.

Or I could be wrong about all of it. I'm just basing it off of how I see they play in highlights.

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

Out of curiosity, what strengths do you see in Miles defensively relative to Bagley? He seems to have a much worse case of tweener-itis, coupled with similarly below-par defensive instincts.

I think Bagley lacks strength, which is more meaningful for his position than Miles who I see as a three. And with Bagley certain to defend the interior positions more often than Miles, his lack of length will hurt him more than Miles.

While I agree Miles has some pretty bad instincts off the ball, I think he has much better fundamentals on the perimeter. I think he can slide better laterally, flip his hips better, and navigate screens better. It's hard to compare the two for me because I see Bridges as being more of a wing than a big.

I think with the disparity with some of his numbers between freshman and sophomore seasons that people are too quick to consider Miles as a 4. I think he can play small ball 4 in some lineups, but at least defensively he's more of a wing to me.

But yeah, if Miles is asked to defend the 4 full time then he will be dealing with alot of the same issues I think Bagley will have.

 

[Nathan S]

I think Bagley lacks strength, which is more meaningful for his position than Miles who I see as a three. And with Bagley certain to defend the interior positions more often than Miles, his lack of length will hurt him more than Miles.

While I agree Miles has some pretty bad instincts off the ball, I think he has much better fundamentals on the perimeter. I think he can slide better laterally, flip his hips better, and navigate screens better. It's hard to compare the two for me because I see Bridges as being more of a wing than a big.

I think with the disparity with some of his numbers between freshman and sophomore seasons that people are too quick to consider Miles as a 4. I think he can play small ball 4 in some lineups, but at least defensively he's more of a wing to me.

But yeah, if Miles is asked to defend the 4 full time then he will be dealing with alot of the same issues I think Bagley will have.

I see...to me he's JAG offensively at the 3, with no particular skill that stands out relative to the typical NBA wing. Seems too vanilla compared to other prospects who have one or more major strengths to build their game around.

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

I see...to me he's JAG offensively at the 3, with no particular skill that stands out relative to the typical NBA wing. Seems too vanilla compared to other prospects who have one or more major strengths to build their game around.

I really buy his shooting as being one of those major strengths. If you're high on him though I think you have to buying into his athletic upside and that he'll improve some on both ends. He also did make subtle improvements in his second year in certain areas like shooting off the dribble that make me like him even more.

 

[Nathan S]

I really buy his shooting as being one of those major strengths. If you're high on him though I think you have to buying into his athletic upside and that he'll improve some on both ends. He also did make subtle improvements in his second year in certain areas like shooting off the dribble that make me like him even more.

Is he going to be accurate enough shooting off the dribble that you actually want him doing that? I tend to think that's unlikely, but I can buy that as a realistic scenario in which he becomes a very good secondary creator offensively, or a decent primary creator. Without the threat of an accurate pullup jumper, I don't think he's quick or crafty enough with the ball to be a big threat off the dribble.

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

I feel like I've typed this before but the discussion picked up again so I'll say it again.

Miles over Mikal. Izzo has always had his younger players defer to the veterans and usually develops his teams through the season to lean on his upperclassmen. I wanted him to unleash young guys like Kelvin Torbert and Jason Richardson but he never does. He wants them to play off their vets and they do until they get the keys as upperclassmen. Miles struck fear in the opponents when attacking. Guys get the hell out of his way. He has a physicality to him that reminds me of Artest offensively at St Johns little flashes of late Freshman year Caron Butler up in Stoors. Guys would bounce off of Artest, Caron would go over and through guys, Miles looks like a mix of those two bulldogs.

Mikal didnt wow me in the Nova games I watched and I know how good Jay Wright is at maximizing the resources he has. He's Brad Stevens and Rick Carlisle like in adjusting what he does to weaponize guys on offense. The scary thing about Mikal is I cant get the comp of watching Demetrius Nichols at Syracuse out of my head when I watched him find his place on offense and play within that role. Similar body and similar lack of ball creating and over reliance on shooting within the system.

I would bet on Miles being the better pro of the two

 

[3 Ball...GOT IT]

Is he going to be accurate enough shooting off the dribble that you actually want him doing that? I tend to think that's unlikely, but I can buy that as a realistic scenario in which he becomes a very good secondary creator offensively, or a decent primary creator. Without the threat of an accurate pullup jumper, I don't think he's quick or crafty enough with the ball to be a big threat off the dribble.

Not yet, but he does enough off-ball until then I think

 

[Nathan S]

I feel like I've typed this before but the discussion picked up again so I'll say it again.

Miles over Mikal. Izzo has always had his younger players defer to the veterans and usually develops his teams through the season to lean on his upperclassmen. I wanted him to unleash young guys like Kelvin Torbert and Jason Richardson but he never does. He wants them to play off their vets and they do until they get the keys as upperclassmen. Miles struck fear in the opponents when attacking. Guys get the hell out of his way. He has a physicality to him that reminds me of Artest offensively at St Johns little flashes of late Freshman year Caron Butler up in Stoors. Guys would bounce off of Artest, Caron would go over and through guys, Miles looks like a mix of those two bulldogs.

Mikal didnt wow me in the Nova games I watched and I know how good Jay Wright is at maximizing the resources he has. He's Brad Stevens and Rick Carlisle like in adjusting what he does to weaponize guys on offense. The scary thing about Mikal is I cant get the comp of watching Demetrius Nichols at Syracuse out of my head when I watched him find his place on offense and play within that role. Similar body and similar lack of ball creating and over reliance on shooting within the system.

I would bet on Miles being the better pro of the two

Thing is, Miles made the fewest shots at the rim (per minute) out of all likely top-10 guys, and also had the lowest free throw rate out of all likely top-10 guys. I'd like him a lot if he was the bowling ball type slasher you're describing, but I'm not sure he is. He definitely didn't show much of that in the games I watched.

 

[Cavatt]

Thing is, Miles made the fewest shots at the rim (per minute) out of all likely top-10 guys, and also had the lowest free throw rate out of all likely top-10 guys. I'd like him a lot if he was the bowling ball type slasher you're describing, but I'm not sure he is. He definitely didn't show much of that in the games I watched.

Nathan what is your board looking like now? Have you changed it?