A Thread About Women

[-Akronite-]

This little circlejerk for Pence's Puritanical views is ridiculous.

If you are a man that suddenly feels threatened by the idea of working around women because you think they'll start making false accusations about you, perhaps you should re-evaluate YOUR actions. But what do I know, I live in New York now so I'm a coastal elite.

We have had multiple instances recently of false accusations being sniffed out (WaPo figuring out the Roy Moore setup, the Schumer set up) and women being punished for false rape accusations.* But people have convinced themselves that because women are finally speaking out against sexual misconduct that they could be the next man witch-hunted and ruined for no good reason.

Sidenote: Funny to see Q-Tip suddenly give a shit about a poll. Politicians are to be expected to ignore how the populace feels but the major media (whatever that means to you) needs to express the views of the average American (even though the average American is wrong constantly). Odd though, even though a majority of Americans disapprove of Trump, somehow the constabt negative news about Trump is ALSO a bad thing to him. Almost as if he's just airing out his biases and not actually making a real point...

*This was the example at the top of my head but I guess she's British if you don't want to count that.

 

[MediumBaller]

This little circlejerk for Pence's Puritanical views is ridiculous.

If you are a man that suddenly feels threatened by the idea of working around women because you think they'll start making false accusations about you, perhaps you should re-evaluate YOUR actions. But what do I know, I live in New York now so I'm a coastal elite.

We have had multiple instances recently of false accusations being sniffed out (WaPo figuring out the Roy Moore setup, the Schumer set up) and women being punished for false rape accusations.* But people have convinced themselves that because women are finally speaking out against sexual misconduct that they could be the next man witch-hunted and ruined for no good reason.

Sidenote: Funny to see Q-Tip suddenly give a shit about a poll. Politicians are to be expected to ignore how the populace feels but the major media (whatever that means to you) needs to express the views of the average American (even though the average American is wrong constantly). Odd though, even though a majority of Americans disapprove of Trump, somehow the constabt negative news about Trump is ALSO a bad thing to him. Almost as if he's just airing out his biases and not actually making a real point...

*This was the example at the top of my head but I guess she's British if you don't want to count that.

False accusations can happen to anyone, regardless of their behavior. To avoid them it's best to avoid putting yourself in any situation where you could be falsely accused. Limiting interactions with women in the workplace is going to be a reaction to avoid being caught up in the #MeToo hysteria. When I start working in an office setting it will be something in the back of my mind. It just isn't worth the risks.

 

[Cavatt]

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/12/06/the-warlock-hunt/

"The #MeToo moment has now morphed into a moral panic that poses as much danger to women as it does to men."

This lady presents it as on accusation bringing these guys down. It isn't. It's a Pattern of behavior corroborated by many witnesses. It's isnt he said she said its he said she said it x10 or x20.

She gives a bunch of examples of guys harrassing her and then says it wouldn't be fair to destroy them. Is it fair for them to be harrassing women in work settings? Even if she doesn't care, does that mean no woman should care if someone gropes them at a Christmas party?

I work with women all the time and I am not worried at all. I don't touch anyone or use crude humor at work. I use work appropriate humor. I don't smack asses at church either. It is pretty easy to me.

Mike Pence can have whatever rules he wants to. Maybe some men need to do that.

I would say one other thing. If a woman accuses and she is telling the truth, it is much better to apologize and say your eyes have been opened and you will immediately stop said behavior. When you lie, it allows a lot of people to come out and say so. Men who do this don't try it once and stop. Own it act like a man and be better. If you haven't actually assaulted someone, you will be fine

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

If you haven't actually assaulted someone, you will be fine

That is not necessarily true.

 

[Cavatt]

No. I find all this odd.

Then again, it is easier when you aren't attracted to them. The temptations, of all kinds, are absent.

How do gay people ever get together if you can't just go around your office touching people?

Isn't this what we should be talking about? Learn to read cues. Learn to tell where the line is. If you are making someone uncomfortable with your advances, stop.

What if it isn't sexual? Why not stop telling a boring story if people aren't interested? Why not stop bringing up fishing if no one cares or asks?

You really don't have to touch someone inappropriately to find out if they are interested in you. You can usually do it with a touch on the arm or a conversation.

 

[Cavatt]

That is not necessarily true.

If not, people at work hate you and you should change jobs. You have made too many people uncomfortable and not want to see you at work. That is a problem that you should be aware of and start working on.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

If not, people at work hate you and you should change jobs. You have made too many people uncomfortable and not want to see you at work. That is a problem that you should be aware of and start working on.

No dude. That may be how things should work, but it is not always how they do work. All it takes is one woman who either 1) doesn't like you, or 2) needs to draw attention away from themselves for some reason. If you have someone who knows or believes they are on thin ice for performance or conduct reasons, then making an accusation of sexual harassment is one way to increase your chances of not being fired. I've seen that scenario more than once.

Actually saw a guy fired, then the woman's mother wrote a letter a couple of months later saying that her daughter had made the whole thing up. Showed us the emails and everything. She didn't like the guy because she thought he was mean, and so when she needed a convenient scapegoat, she picked him.

 

[-Akronite-]

False accusations can happen to anyone, regardless of their behavior. To avoid them it's best to avoid putting yourself in any situation where you could be falsely accused. Limiting interactions with women in the workplace is going to be a reaction to avoid being caught up in the #MeToo hysteria. When I start working in an office setting it will be something in the back of my mind. It just isn't worth the risks.

That's strange. I work in an office. In fact I share an office with a woman. I am one of two dudes in my whole department next to a dozen women. I interact with them on a daily basis and have never run into any issues because I mind my behavior rather than avoid women. It's a ludicrous assumption to think that someone will make something up about me to tear me down.

Does it happen? Yes. But false accusations coming out of nowhere and based on nothing are not some mass epidemic sweeping the nation that needs to send men into hiding. The only reason to live by Mike Pence's rule is if you are afraid of your own actions/words.

If you think a lady is nuts and liable to pull that kind of shit, sure, avoid her. Same thing for women. They should avoid dudes that they feel uncomfortable around, but that doesn't mean they need to hide under their desks when a man walks by.

 

[MediumBaller]

That's strange. I work in an office. In fact I share an office with a woman. I am one of two dudes in my whole department next to a dozen women. I interact with them on a daily basis and have never run into any issues because I mind my behavior rather than avoid women. It's a ludicrous assumption to think that someone will make something up about me to tear me down.

Does it happen? Yes. But false accusations coming out of nowhere and based on nothing are not some mass epidemic sweeping the nation that needs to send men into hiding. The only reason to live by Mike Pence's rule is if you are afraid of your own actions/words.

If you think a lady is nuts and liable to pull that kind of shit, sure, avoid her. Same thing for women. They should avoid dudes that they feel uncomfortable around, but that doesn't mean they need to hide under their desks when a man walks by.

Sure, it's not likely to happen. It's probable that the average dude will go through his entire career without being falsely accused. But, there's a nonzero chance of it happening. It's better to err on the side of caution. I'm not going to go out and be a dick to women I work with, but I won't be going out of my way to be friendly either.

 

[Cavatt]

No dude. That may be how things should work, but it is not always how they do work. All it takes is one woman who either 1) doesn't like you, or 2) needs to draw attention away from themselves for some reason. If you have someone who knows or believes they are on thin ice for performance or conduct reasons, then making an accusation of sexual harassment is one way to increase your chances of not being fired. I've seen that scenario more than once.

Actually saw a guy fired, then the woman's mother wrote a letter a couple of months later saying that her daughter had made the whole thing up. Showed us the emails and everything. She didn't like the guy because she thought he was mean, and so when she needed a convenient scapegoat, she picked him.

Well ok. That wasn't the situation I described at all. I said if it is true come clean. If not you shouldn't have more people come out of the woodwork to accuse you. You have seen where several accusers have come out and it was a conspiracy?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Well ok. That wasn't the situation I described at all. I said if it is true come clean. If not you shouldn't have more people come out of the woodwork to accuse you. You have seen where several accusers have come out and it was a conspiracy?

I'm not sure what your point is. We were talking about whether it makes sense for a man in the workplace to avoid "alone" situations that might serve as the basis for a false accusation. Hell, it even makes sense to avoid so that other people (usually women) won't gossip about it.

You seem now to be talking about something different - how should we judge truthfulness when multiple accusers come forward with horroble accusations.

Multiple accusers obvious make fabrication/exaggeration less likely, but you still have to consider all the relevant facts.

 

[-Akronite-]

Sure, it's not likely to happen. It's probable that the average dude will go through his entire career without being falsely accused. But, there's a nonzero chance of it happening. It's better to err on the side of caution. I'm not going to go out and be a dick to women I work with, but I won't be going out of my way to be friendly either.

Really depends on what friendly means. You can go on talking to women like they are people, since they are... Hitting on them isn't always friendly, so I guess that's a good idea.

 

[TyGuy]

Dp

 

[Cavatt]

I'm not sure what your point is. We were talking about whether it makes sense for a man in the workplace to avoid "alone" situations that might serve as the basis for a false accusation. Hell, it even makes sense to avoid so that other people (usually women) won't gossip about it.

You seem now to be talking about something different - how should we judge truthfulness when multiple accusers come forward with horroble accusations.

Multiple accusers obvious make fabrication/exaggeration less likely, but you still have to consider all the relevant facts.

I would say one other thing. If a woman accuses and she is telling the truth, it is much better to apologize and say your eyes have been opened and you will immediately stop said behavior. When you lie, it allows a lot of people to come out and say so. Men who do this don't try it once and stop. Own it act like a man and be better. If you haven't actually assaulted someone, you will be fine.

This is the whole paragraph you replied to. There was a caveat at the beginning. "If a woman accuses you, and she is telling the truth." Then you said, not always, and then I asked for clarification and you wrote about an instance where a woman falsley accused someone. So I don't think the issue is that I got off topic. You shoehorned my statement into another situation.

How many cases have you seen where someone's career was destroyed from a single accusation with 0 corroboration or evidence? Im genuinely interested. It seems very unlikely to me.

In my mind a pattern of behavior of harrassment, off color jokes at women's expense, and inappropriate touching can have consequences at work. Why should this behavior be protected?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Sure, it's not likely to happen. It's probable that the average dude will go through his entire career without being falsely accused. But, there's a nonzero chance of it happening. It's better to err on the side of caution. I'm not going to go out and be a dick to women I work with, but I won't be going out of my way to be friendly either.

You can be perfectly friendly. Just watch the one-on-ones out of the office. Group things are fine. And watch closing your door if there is a female in the office.

I went to a top ten law school, so lots of high achievers. But the women in my section literally - the first fucking week - drew up a list "pairing off" all the men and women in the section they thought would match up best. Dudes do something like that, and they get hammered.

Funny thing is that one of those women - who participated it but then kind of sheepishly admitted it later - was/is a high ranking lawyer in the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department. Haven't communicated with her for 20+ years, but it would be interesting to remind her of that.