Chief Wahoo Discussion

[gourimoko]

Tornicade mentioned that the only people allowed to do caricatures are people who share the same race as the subject being drawn.

As numerous posters have recommend, I have finally put Tornicade on ignore at this point... Certain conversations just aren't worth having so I apologize if that makes it difficult to understand what's going on, but I'm not going to engage in what amounts to Holocaust denial.

I just lose respect for a person after a certain point...

So, I was just clarifying that point. Keep caricature artists of different races separate but make sure they remain with equal opportunities.

Yea, that's nonsense, and that's why I've just put him on ignore.

No one is (or should be) talking about banning or restricting people's speech, just as no one should try to use the Wahoo logo as a reactionary cause to revise the Native American history in this country to wash away the sins of this nation against them. Another poster put it perfectly when he said this thread, for a moment, had turned into a "they deserved it" moment.

Lastly, with respect to outrage, there appears to be outrage on both sides of this issue; but the most vitriolic seems to be on the side that wants to keep the logo no matter what.

I also see people in here wanting to turn this into a conversation about "political correctness" which, maybe is a conversation worth having, but seems like whack-a-mole to me...

You're a smart guy, so I'll engage you; but some others here have taken this issue and run with it into some rather dark corners.

 

[Jscc]

I'm going to state the following and speak no more on the subject because I believe it's silly.

My great grandmother was 100% pure Blackfoot and spoke Siksika. She spoke broken English [at first] before marrying my great grandfather. That makes my father's side [and myself] partially Native American. My best friend is also Native American. Neither had problems with Chief Wahoo. My best friend in particular is a die-hard Redskins fan. He has their logo on everything. He views the Chief Wahoo situation as ridiculous.

Why did I mention that? I know i'm going to get the logical fallacy junk thrown at me and frankly, I don't care. They're part of the population being discussed and I won't allow them to be marginalized just because they're not shouting loud--a phrase used in this thread. My point being there exist out there those who feel differently, which is why Chief Wahoo has existed this long and imo will continue to exist. It's an institutional meme that represents my favorite baseball team. I don't think of them nor do I feel it's intended to insult them when I look at Chief Wahoo.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm going to state the following and speak no more on the subject because I believe it's silly.

My great grandmother was 100% pure Blackfoot and spoke Siksika. She spoke broken English [at first] before marrying my great grandfather. That makes my father's side [and myself] partially Native American. My best friend is also Native American. Neither had problems with Chief Wahoo. My best friend in particular is a die-hard Redskins fan. He has their logo on everything. He views the Chief Wahoo situation as ridiculous.

Why did I mention that? I know i'm going to get the logical fallacy junk thrown at me and frankly, I don't care. They're part of the population being discussed and I won't allow them to be marginalized just because they're not shouting loud--a phrase used in this thread. My point being there exist out there those who feel differently, which is why Chief Wahoo has existed this long and imo will continue to exist. It's an institutional meme that represents my favorite baseball team. I don't think of them nor do I feel it's intended to insult them when I look at Chief Wahoo.

As I said up-thread, both of my maternal grandparents are half Native American.

Both of them thought the logo was racist, and folks I know who self-identify as Native American think the logo is racist. I don't know any Native Americans that think the logo is acceptable although I do know such people exist. Just as I know of Black people who think certain things most Black people find offensive are otherwise acceptable.

Point being, as @David. pointed out, this isn't about majority opinion or consensus but logical consistency in our own ethics.

If we wouldn't accept a team called the New York Kikes or the San Francisco Chinks with racist caricatures to go along with them, then we likely shouldn't accept the Cleveland Indians with Chief Wahoo.

I honestly find the arguments for keeping the logo to be less rational and more emotional, based on nostalgia and pride rather than a sense of ethics.

 

[Jordan]

If Indians win the title then - and I am being 100% serious here - I think it makes sense to consider renaming the team something along the lines of the "Cleveland Champs." You can have a great mascot and logo, it lets us move past this "Chief Wahoo" issue while adding something new to be proud of. I'm sure people will think this is arrogant or ridiculous but, in the eyes of Clevelanders, I do really believe it could work.

 

[AZ_]

Should we change the logo to honor those who have suffered under the yoke of reverse racism?

It sounds like a crushing struggle. Your own Trail of Tears.


Forced to burn all of your Indians gear under the fear of being labeled a racist.

By whom, you ask?

That hasn't been made clear, really. But it's a big problem, apparently.



Fighting for the right to hold dear the clearly racist logo that has become such a fabric of your fragile foundation, God Bless America!

 

[Tornicade]

Should we change the logo to honor those who have suffered under the yoke of reverse racism?

It sounds like a crushing struggle. Your own Trail of Tears.


Forced to burn all of your Indians gear under the fear of being labeled a racist.

By whom, you ask?

That hasn't been made clear, really. But it's a big problem, apparently.



Fighting for the right to hold dear the clearly racist logo that has become such a fabric of your fragile foundation, God Bless America!

or just a new way for people to allow the government to enforce censorship.

The Cleveland Indians can choose to market their product and people can choose not to support that product.

 

[AZ_]

or just a new way for people to allow the government to enforce censorship.

The Cleveland Indians can choose to market their product and people can choose not to support that product.

Holding on to an obviously racist just to prove that point is pretty stupid.

Just ditch the logo, not because the government told you. Because it's racist, this shouldn't be that hard.

 

[Otsego Mar]

As I said up-thread, both of my maternal grandparents are half Native American.

Both of them thought the logo was racist, and folks I know who self-identify as Native American think the logo is racist. I don't know any Native Americans that think the logo is acceptable although I do know such people exist. Just as I know of Black people who think certain things most Black people find offensive are otherwise acceptable.

Point being, as @David. pointed out, this isn't about majority opinion or consensus but logical consistency in our own ethics.

If we wouldn't accept a team called the New York Kikes or the San Francisco Chinks with racist caricatures to go along with them, then we likely shouldn't accept the Cleveland Indians with Chief Wahoo.

I honestly find the arguments for keeping the logo to be less rational and more emotional, based on nostalgia and pride rather than a sense of ethics.

Gourimoko , those terms are slang terms with determined racist origins.

Redskins and Indians are factual representatives of culture. Although I will say redskins is slightly different than Indians.

 

[Tornicade]

Holding on to an obviously racist just to prove that point is pretty stupid.

Just ditch the logo, not because the government told you. Because it's racist, this shouldn't be that hard.

I don't see it as racist. You can feel free to see it as however you like but whats stupid is you trying toimpose your will on others when they don't agree with you.
its pure bullying.

However calling me a racist for not having a problem with it is just a way to divide people and offers little productivity at all.

There are Native Americans on reservations living in Squallor, dealing with addiction and being ignored by the tribal and us government.

This is truly a said state of afairs. if you think a logo for a baseball team is more important than actually helping the causes Native americans use these logos and team to try and bring attention to you are a sad self righteous human being who offers nothing to society

 

[gourimoko]

Gourimoko , those terms are slang terms with determined racist origins.

I'm not really referring to the name of the team.

Redskins and Indians are factual representatives of culture. Although I will say redskins is slightly different than Indians.

Mar, words are not "factual."

Redskin is a derogatory term. Indian is not, although it is a misnomer. I'm not arguing about a team name change because the term "Indian" is somehow racist; that's not my stance.

I think the part you missed is that the New York Kikes could just as well be called the New York Jews, yet if their mascot was a racist caricature, then that would cause a massive social uproar.

The arguments being used here, today, are not logically consistent if we'd reject the New York Jews and a racist caricature of Jewish people while accepting the Cleveland Indians and a racist caricature of Native Americans.

 

[AZ_]

I don't see it as racist. You can feel free to see it as however you like but whats stupid is you trying toimpose your will on others when they don't agree with you.
its pure bullying.

However calling me a racist for not having a problem with it is just a way to divide people and offers little productivity at all.

There are Native Americans on reservations living in Squallor, dealing with addiction and being ignored by the tribal and us government.

This is truly a said state of afairs. if you think a logo for a baseball team is more important than actually helping the causes Native americans use these logos and team to try and bring attention to you are a sad self righteous human being who offers nothing to society

You make some compelling arguments.

Sure, almost none of the points you're arguing were made by me or anyone else.

But very compelling.

Logo is still racist.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't see it as racist.

Ultimately, the key question is "who decides what is racist?" I don't believe we are obligated to defer to the opinions of those who claim to be offended. I think we each should make that determination for ourselves, based on what we, as individuals, think is reasonable.

There are Native Americans on reservations living in Squallor, dealing with addiction and being ignored by the tribal and us government.

This is truly a said state of afairs. if you think a logo for a baseball team is more important than actually helping the causes Native americans....

Chief Wahoo has absolutely nothing to do with whatever otherwise legitimate historical grievances exist, except as a cheap proxy for satisfaction on the part of some.

 

[gourimoko]

Ultimately, the key question is "who decides what is racist?" I don't believe we are obligated to defer to the opinions of those who claim to be offended. I think we each should make that determination for ourselves, based on what we, as individuals, think is reasonable.

Logic and rationality is something that can be tested; that's the point.

You don't get to have your own personal logic, and you as an individual, based around your own ruleset, do not determine what is or is not generally reasonable.

We as a people have the ability to reason and rationalize what is or is not logical and rational; simply saying to oneself "well, this is what I feel, so it's reasonable and rational," is an example of irrational behavior and thinking.

For those saying the logo is not racist, then they should be able to demonstrate a logically consistent argument. For those saying it is racist but they don't care, that's fine, but at least be consistent -- you shouldn't care no matter what race is portrayed; so if someone starts using caricatures of Blacks and Jews then you shouldn't have a problem with that either.

What is irrational here is the lack of self-consistency in the arguments... The argument that the logo should be removed seems to me, to make the most rational sense, since it requires the fewest exceptions and conditions while being the most logically and ethically self-consistent.

Again, I'm open to debate on this topic, but it would seem many folks are just going to enter and exit the thread, say their peace, and walk away. So we don't actually get anywhere, and just run around in circles.

Chief Wahoo has absolutely nothing to do with whatever otherwise legitimate historical grievances exist, except as a cheap proxy for satisfaction on the part of some.

Not sure what you mean by this, but to say Chief Wahoo is not a continuation of racist stereotyping and discriminatory and prejudicial actions by our society against Native Americans, IMHO, is wrong. Wahoo is an extension of a long and dark history of the cruel and inhumane treatment of the indigenous population here. You may choose not to see that, and many here may reject the rather obvious connection for emotional reasons; but it exists, historically, nonetheless.

 

[Chris]

Thread should be dead starting...nao

 

[Tornicade]

Censorship can always be rationalized. doesn't make it right or the thing to do.

You can go continent to continent, state to state, county to county and find things some deem offensive that others do not.

2nd amendment is constantly under attack by people attempting to redefine what it means under the guise of logic and rationale.
Same with the freedom of speech. people spend a lot of time arguing over what it does and doesn't apply to.

I really don't care for any logic or rationale that sees no difference from the holocaust from what befell the Native Americans.


I have yet to see a logical rational argument that Chief Wahoo perpetuates a Native American stereotype amongst the population any more than the fighting irish, Celtics.

In fact multiple testimonials of people do not believe thatNative Americans walk around playing baseball with a big smile on their face wile doing the tomahawk chop.

If you want Native American history goto a museum or library... or hey visit a reservation.

It does provide Native Americans an opportunity to rally and organize to present their issues and get peoples attention.


Absolutism goes beyond rationale. Generic labeling of people who doesn't share the same view come across as intolerant and judgmental. especially when directed at people not making the same arguments.

Personally I only see one race. the human race. everything else is clutter that people use to continue to divide themselves from society.


The Native Americans have a history of being victimized as well as being victimizers.

I don't think its rationale or logical to wipe of any reference of Native Americans from American Culture as these mascots and logos serve as reminders and while they don't tell the story. it keeps an important part of our heritage out there ready to be discussed.