Cleveland Guardians Offseason Discussion 2021-22

[Real Deal]

And your earlier comment…they are an excellent FO. They’ve proven that. Which is what amazes me about them getting caught with their pants down so badly.

this is ‘sign falling off the gift shop bad’

I wonder what this front office could do with a $120mil dollar spending spree.

Would they capitalize or have some duds? There's always duds, no way of dodging a lemon sometimes.

But it's always something I pondered about this elite FO.

 

[BimboColesHair]

And your earlier comment…they are an excellent FO. They’ve proven that. Which is what amazes me about them getting caught with their pants down so badly.

this is ‘sign falling off the gift shop bad’

I don't think they're getting caught with their pants down. I just think the way they handled their offseason plans with regards to the media was poor.

The messaging now should have been the messaging all along, as soon as all the 40 man moves were made to protect guys from the Rule 5 and more than half of their top 10 position player prospects landed on the 40 man. Youth in the lineup should have been the messaging, even as behind the scenes they were making the same plays they made.

This team, if it chooses to do so naturally, will be very very good in a few years just off prospects alone. They have enough darts to throw at 2B and SS where they will get at least one guy at each spot who is an All Star caliber player. Crop of talent is just too good for all of those guys to flame out at the MLB level.

Valera is the best hitting prospect they've had in a long long time. Kwan and Palacios aren't slouches hitting the ball either, and all 3 can hang defensively in the OF. They have 2 good catching prospects. A good wild card in Nolan Jones.

It would be pants down if the cupboard was bare on young talent and they were trotting out nothing but retreads.

But that echoes the same thing people are saying in here and one of my chief complaints last season...if you are going to commit to giving the young guys a chance, don't half ass it. Don't hang on to your Bauers or your Gamel's to play ahead of young guys. Put Rosario in left until you can trade him, play Arias at SS every day, play Gimenez at 2B every day, make Zimmer or Mercado your 5th OF as a defensive replacement or day off replacement and not a starter, have Kwan on the Opening Day roster.

Need to quit pussyfooting around the youth movement offensively in lieu of holding guys with no options left until the last possible second, and I think they'll be forced to with how many highly regarded prospects occupy their 40 man now and now that the options game is in play for all those prospects.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I wonder what this front office could do with a $120mil dollar spending spree.

Would they capitalize or have some duds? There's always duds, no way of dodging a lemon sometimes.

But it's always something I pondered about this elite FO.

If you're wondering what this FO would do with a bigger wallet from ownership, just look at the Blue Jays.

 

[Gson]

Sorry for delay, started a vacation. Dodgers won’t take Jose this year due to lineup already except for injury. Next year, Turner maybe gone so it frees up a bit of room. Just thought Bieber being Cali boy it matches well in LA with Bauer being Bauer.

Their farm appears always strong. Their OF/C is AA this year so won’t help until into 2023. For me, those are biggest needs for us plus the pitcher you always get and LA has it all. Angels farm looks a bit weak especially catcher. Tor, SD, NYM and LAD have those elite prospects and maybe desperate enough to give them up. Only other place to look for an up and coming Catcher is Oakland and Langeliers but they want him when trade theirs.

Herrera is last option for me ... bit better than ours but for Ramirez or Bauer, you go big or hold on. I still hope we sign one or both. I was excited to see reps sitting down w FO (thought it meant we were in neighborhood of parameters). Yet, I won’t get my hopes up. Less than 13 days to get our next indicator to path FO takes.

A few points..

Sure, the dodgers do not have a spot for Jose Ramirez in 2022.. but, if you have a chance to get a guy like him... you make space.. If that "made space" become normal space (i.e. Turner will be playing in his year 37 season in 2022), then getting a 3B of JRam's ability a year early for "who really cares how much money".. That's something the Dodgers do..

The farm is strong.. has several prospects/players that make a LOT of sense..

I've liked Herrera for a long time and for a couple of reasons.. first and foremost.. he's a catcher's catcher.. he's trained under and in the shadow of one of the greatest catchers of all time.. He's more ready to be a major league catcher than any of the guys being bandied about including Rutchman and Bart and Langeliers and others. Those guys may become more than they are right now, in fact it would surprise me if they didn't.. but none of them have Herrera's training or pedigree.. I'd consider a HUGE Bieber trade with the Cardinals for him as an absolute partial necessity or a MUST if Jose is traded to the Dodgers.. but, that's for another day.. Needless to say, I've seen a LOT of catchers, have been one.. and can see what I see.. Go back into the IBI files and review my comments on Erik Haase: not a surprise.. Catching is both art and science.. Sadly, there are guys who post who've never worn the tools.. hell, many need their mommy to help them with their cup.. smh..

Thanks for posting.. hope you have more vacations..

 

[Mott the Hoople]

First, Bimbo, thank you for taking the time to try to explain the front office thinking. This board is just a bunch of frustrated fans. Opening Day is traditionally a time for hope. But today, our roster seems to be less talented than others in the division.

We seem to have reached a fork in the road for the franchise with 2 very different paths.

1. Extend JRam now. Meet his ask. Give him a Rizzo type deal. Then move some minor league talent to get some complimentary major league pieces in here. It probably wouldn't be enough for 2022. But some kids should develop by 2023.

2. Trade JRam. The good part of that is I don't think we need pitchers. We seem to be able to develop pitchers pretty well. We need, well, you know what we need.

Right now, I don't think an extension is likely. Thoughts?

 

[Stark]

Dodgers have room for Jose right now if they wanted to.

OF - Bellinger, T. Turner, Betts
IF - J. Turner, Ramirez, Muncy/Taylor, Freeman
C - Smith
DH - Taylor/Muncy

Pollock is the odd man out of the lineup at that point, and you live with that if it means you get Jose. If your bench is featuring Gavin Lux, AJ Pollock, and Edwin Rios, you're doing alright.

 

[BimboColesHair]

First, Bimbo, thank you for taking the time to try to explain the front office thinking. This board is just a bunch of frustrated fans. Opening Day is traditionally a time for hope. But today, our roster seems to be less talented than others in the division.

We seem to have reached a fork in the road for the franchise with 2 very different paths.

1. Extend JRam now. Meet his ask. Give him a Rizzo type deal. Then move some minor league talent to get some complimentary major league pieces in here. It probably wouldn't be enough for 2022. But some kids should develop by 2023.

2. Trade JRam. The good part of that is I don't think we need pitchers. We seem to be able to develop pitchers pretty well. We need, well, you know what we need.

Right now, I don't think an extension is likely. Thoughts?

I still think Cleveland has the best rotation in their own division. And having pitching is key. Need that group to stay healthy and have the top 3 put up their typical seasons while McKenzie and Quantrill continue to grow.

They also have the best closer in the division as well. And if Karinchak can get it back (he looked great in camp before he tweaked something the other day) they have as good of a 1-2 punch in the bullpen as anyone in baseball.

Pitching still plays and can still win a lot of games, even with a slightly below league average offense.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, post Straw trade where he was able to balance out the lineup a bit and give them a legit leadoff man, they weren't a below average offense. From 7/31 (Straw's debut) to the end of the season, 61 games, Cleveland's offense ranked 1st in the MLB in SB, 4th in BsR, 10th in runs scored, 11th in fWAR, 13th in wRC+, 14th in slugging.

They were actually slightly above average on offense for the last 3rd of the season. Combo of Straw, Rosario, and Josey at the top will manufacture runs from their above average base running by itself. And they did that while getting absolutely nothing from their 6 to 9 hitters.

An average offense and good pitching is still a pain in the ass team to deal with. Cleveland, like they were last season, will again be a pain in the ass team to deal with. And with an expanded playoff, who knows. Health is the key. Bieber, Civale, and Plesac can't all miss extended periods of time again. Franmil can't miss 50 games again. And obviously Josey needs to stay healthy.

Also, extending Josey doesn't mean they have to go out and make moves. Extending Jose lets them be a bit more patient either waiting for the right time to make trades or have him as a calming lineup factor while the youth movement up the middle and in the OF takes place and have him ready for when that core is really good.

 

[Stark]

I still think Cleveland has the best rotation in their own division. And having pitching is key. Need that group to stay healthy and have the top 3 put up their typical seasons while McKenzie and Quantrill continue to grow.

They also have the best closer in the division as well. And if Karinchak can get it back (he looked great in camp before he tweaked something the other day) they have as good of a 1-2 punch in the bullpen as anyone in baseball.

Pitching still plays and can still win a lot of games, even with a slightly below league average offense.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, post Straw trade where he was able to balance out the lineup a bit and give them a legit leadoff man, they weren't a below average offense. From 7/31 (Straw's debut) to the end of the season, 61 games, Cleveland's offense ranked 1st in the MLB in SB, 4th in BsR, 10th in runs scored, 11th in fWAR, 13th in wRC+, 14th in slugging.

They were actually slightly above average on offense for the last 3rd of the season. Combo of Straw, Rosario, and Josey at the top will manufacture runs from their above average base running by itself. And they did that while getting absolutely nothing from their 6 to 9 hitters.

An average offense and good pitching is still a pain in the ass team to deal with. Cleveland, like they were last season, will again be a pain in the ass team to deal with. And with an expanded playoff, who knows. Health is the key. Bieber, Civale, and Plesac can't all miss extended periods of time again. Franmil can't miss 50 games again. And obviously Josey needs to stay healthy.

Also, extending Josey doesn't mean they have to go out and make moves. Extending Jose lets them be a bit more patient either waiting for the right time to make trades or have him as a calming lineup factor while the youth movement up the middle and in the OF takes place and have him ready for when that core is really good.

I'm very confident in our top-4 guys. I think Straw, Rosario (if he can keep growing/stay consistent), Jose, and Franmil are just fine.

It's everything else that concerns me. Our other two outfield spots are extreme wildcards. Bradley might hit 25 bombs, but he might strike out 220 times too. Naylor isn't guaranteed to give us anything. We've got one of the worst hitting catchers in baseball. 2B is a toss up.

 

[BimboColesHair]

I'm very confident in our top-4 guys. I think Straw, Rosario (if he can keep growing/stay consistent), Jose, and Franmil are just fine.

It's everything else that concerns me. Our other two outfield spots are extreme wildcards. Bradley might hit 25 bombs, but he might strike out 220 times too. Naylor isn't guaranteed to give us anything. We've got one of the worst hitting catchers in baseball. 2B is a toss up.

There is legit talk in camp of Rosario in LF and Arias at SS to break camp. Shades of the Rosario in CF and Gimenez at SS talk this time last year.

If they do that they not only get significantly better defensively up the middle, they also extend their lineup out, as Rosario would give you at least league average offense from LF which is an improvement over last seasons production they got from that position and Zimmer or Mercado would give this year and I believe Arias is one of those guys who will elevate their game at the MLB level.

In todays day and age and how much Cs are asked to do defensively anything they can give you offensively is just a bonus. But I'd be good if my questions going into the season were Gimenez at 2B, Naylor/RF, and a Bradley/Chang platoon at 1B. A Gold Glove level defensive player and 2 position groups where I can see both providing you 25+ HRs and a good bit of slugging.

This still is a good team. But damn, a Straw, Winker, Ramirez, Olson, Reyes 1-5 would have been an absolute bear to deal with and that's what they swung for.

 

[daddywags]

Thanks for the info, Bimbo. Personally I'm hoping Arias is ready to get a shot at SS, moving Rosario to LF. I'm probably higher on Naylor's potential than reasonable, but I think an outfield of Rosario-Straw-Naylor, backed up by Zimmer/Mercado for defense/situational-platoon purposes could keep us competitive with our pitching and up the middle defense. If it's time to find out what the youngsters have got, I sure hope a guy like Arias can come north with a regular job.

 

[sportscoach]

There is legit talk in camp of Rosario in LF and Arias at SS to break camp. Shades of the Rosario in CF and Gimenez at SS talk this time last year.

If they do that they not only get significantly better defensively up the middle, they also extend their lineup out, as Rosario would give you at least league average offense from LF which is an improvement over last seasons production they got from that position and Zimmer or Mercado would give this year and I believe Arias is one of those guys who will elevate their game at the MLB level.

In todays day and age and how much Cs are asked to do defensively anything they can give you offensively is just a bonus. But I'd be good if my questions going into the season were Gimenez at 2B, Naylor/RF, and a Bradley/Chang platoon at 1B. A Gold Glove level defensive player and 2 position groups where I can see both providing you 25+ HRs and a good bit of slugging.

This still is a good team. But damn, a Straw, Winker, Ramirez, Olson, Reyes 1-5 would have been an absolute bear to deal with and that's what they swung for.

I have a random question, why is Rosario in LF instead of RF? I feel like since he has a SS arm, he would be better in RF since Palacios and Kwan should be in LF. I think Kwan can outproduce Naylor with the bat and in the field...

Also what time table are you seeing for Naylor, Sandlin, Karinchak etc when it comes to injuries?

 

[Gson]

There is legit talk .... damn, a Straw, Winker, Ramirez, Olson, Reyes 1-5 would have been an absolute bear to deal with and that's what they swung for.

Lengthening the lineup = a good thing..

 

[Mott the Hoople]

This still is a good team. But damn, a Straw, Winker, Ramirez, Olson, Reyes 1-5 would have been an absolute bear to deal with and that's what they swung for.

Jesus, just stop. That's like saying I could've dated Bo Derek if only I, ,,, well, whatever.

 

[mopete12]

I have a random question, why is Rosario in LF instead of RF? I feel like since he has a SS arm, he would be better in RF since Palacios and Kwan should be in LF. I think Kwan can outproduce Naylor with the bat and in the field...

Also what time table are you seeing for Naylor, Sandlin, Karinchak etc when it comes to injuries?

Rosario’s arm looked like dog shit in CF last year. I think mainly because he is just used to throwing it like an infielder.

 

[Steve_424]

I still think Cleveland has the best rotation in their own division. And having pitching is key. Need that group to stay healthy and have the top 3 put up their typical seasons while McKenzie and Quantrill continue to grow.

They also have the best closer in the division as well. And if Karinchak can get it back (he looked great in camp before he tweaked something the other day) they have as good of a 1-2 punch in the bullpen as anyone in baseball.

Pitching still plays and can still win a lot of games, even with a slightly below league average offense.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, post Straw trade where he was able to balance out the lineup a bit and give them a legit leadoff man, they weren't a below average offense. From 7/31 (Straw's debut) to the end of the season, 61 games, Cleveland's offense ranked 1st in the MLB in SB, 4th in BsR, 10th in runs scored, 11th in fWAR, 13th in wRC+, 14th in slugging.

They were actually slightly above average on offense for the last 3rd of the season. Combo of Straw, Rosario, and Josey at the top will manufacture runs from their above average base running by itself. And they did that while getting absolutely nothing from their 6 to 9 hitters.

An average offense and good pitching is still a pain in the ass team to deal with. Cleveland, like they were last season, will again be a pain in the ass team to deal with. And with an expanded playoff, who knows. Health is the key. Bieber, Civale, and Plesac can't all miss extended periods of time again. Franmil can't miss 50 games again. And obviously Josey needs to stay healthy.

Also, extending Josey doesn't mean they have to go out and make moves. Extending Jose lets them be a bit more patient either waiting for the right time to make trades or have him as a calming lineup factor while the youth movement up the middle and in the OF takes place and have him ready for when that core is really good.

This right here is exactly why I will be very disappointed if they don't get something done.

We have Lavastida/Naylor coming at C, Bradley, Naylor, and maybe Jones at 1B, Freeman, Arias, Rocchio, Gimenez, Tena up the middle, Straw in CF, Kwan, Palacios, Jones, Valera in the OF. We have a ton of young, talented arms.

Lock Jose in, give the Guardians the long-term face of the franchise and someone for fans to latch on to as the youngsters learn how to win, and build around that superstar player.