Get Excited Somewhere Else: John Dorsey

[Urban]

Is he?

Again, thanks for Baker, but after that, he drafted Ward who a lot of people had as the consensus pick (Bradley Chubb was really the only other option at 4). After those two picks, the only other player he hit on is Nick Chubb, who exceeded everyone's expectations, including Dorsey's, because Dorsey took Corbett two picks ahead of him.

2018: Austin Corbett, Chad Thomas, Antonio Callaway, Genard Avery, Damion Ratley, Simeon Thomas.
2019: Greedy Williams, Sione Takitaki, Sheldrick Redwine, Mack Wilson, Austin Seibert, Drew Forbes, Donnie Lewis

In what world is this a good talent evaluator? Not only is it a piss-poor job of evaluating talent, but he went through a good chunk of the assets we had stockpiled at a blistering pace.

It's weird to discredit the good picks when you have that list of bad picks below.

Ward was definitely not seen as the consensus pick- Bradley Chubb was locked in at #4 in just about every single mock draft and that pick was kind of blasted. Pretty much every other post in the Ward thread was "happy with the pick, wish we traded down to get him. Would've preferred Chubb"And while Ward was seen as the #1 corner, he wasn't universally seen as the #1 DB- plenty reserved that spot to Derwin James and Minkah Fitzpatrick. We've seen this team pick in the Top 10 year after year and routinely screw it up, so again, the criticism here is weird.

Do GMs deserve criticism for a 3rd round pick becoming a Pro Bowler because they took a different player in the 1st and 2nd round?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

It's weird to discredit the good picks when you have that list of bad picks below.

It's weird to look at my post, which specifically calls out the three good picks, and then claim that I'm "discrediting" them. I'm directly acknowledging them, and you're not the first person who's done this.

Ward was definitely not seen as the consensus pick- Bradley Chubb was locked in at #4 in just about every single mock draft and that pick was kind of blasted. Pretty much every other post in the Ward thread was "happy with the pick, wish we traded down to get him. Would've preferred Chubb"And while Ward was seen as the #1 corner, he wasn't universally seen as the #1 DB- plenty reserved that spot to Derwin James and Minkah Fitzpatrick. We've seen this team pick in the Top 10 year after year and routinely screw it up, so again, the criticism here is weird.

I think to casual fans, Ward was blasted, but most of the draft chatter I remember had Ward as a favorite for that pick. I know in both my full offseason game, as well as my draft redo, I had Ward at 4, which was the second most popular option behind Chubb. I think that Quenton Nelson was actually the third most popular choice there.

Who are you saying is dealing out criticism? Certainly not I--I loved the pick then, and still love it now. I'm fairly sure I've been one of the highest people around on Denzel Ward since day one.

Do GMs deserve criticism for a 3rd round pick becoming a Pro Bowler because they took a different player in the 1st and 2nd round?

What are you talking about here? Is it something specific that I'm missing, or is this just talking in hypotheticals? I'm simply saying that, outside of Baker, Chubb and Ward, Dorsey's entire draft classes from 2018 and 2019 were miserable. I think all of 2018 might even be off our roster already.

 

[FiveThous]

For so many years the Browns were terrible mostly because they horribly failed every single time in the 1st and 2nd round. Now we're going to penalize a guy for taking people who are highly rated, maybe even 'consensus' picks? That seems weird.

-You can't just disregard Baker or Ward because they were "consensus" picks. Baker wasn't the consensus #1 pick by any stretch of the imagination. I can't say Ward was either.
-Chubb was a grand slam.
-Corbett was a big question mark. He had a pretty turbulent start here, but he's started every game this year for the Rams. Perhaps our staff just sucked and couldn't develop players?
-Wilson has played pretty well relative to where he was drafted

I think when you go back to include KC as well, yes, people will say he's a good talent evaluator.

Outside of the draft:
Traded for Teller
Signed Hunt

Those two moves alone have had a massive impact on our identity on offense. He wasn't perfect but he made some really good moves as well.

The tellet trade was created by a hole me made by getting rid of zeitler.

 

[Soar]

Dorsey's 2018 Browns draft certainly looked like one of the best classes in Browns history.

Mayfield, Ward, Chubb, Callaway, and Avery all had tremendous rookie years.

Chubb has become arguably the best RB in the league, Ward is certainly one of the most talented corners, and Mayfield... well the jury is still out but if we can get more of last week, that would be excellent.

However, though there were glimpses from other guys, Austin Corbett, Callaway, Avery, Ratley, and Chad Thomas find themselves on other teams or not on a team.

Really did not expect Austin Corbett to be that bad.

2019 was much more of a mixed bag and there aren't many guys left to be overly excited about.

However, that 2018 class certainly has potential with Mayfield, Ward, and Chubb to be a class that turned this franchise around.

 

[Sebastian]

Reports of Dorsey in Detroit with local product Robert Saleh:

NFL coaching rumors: Detroit Lions interested in Robert Saleh, John Dorsey

The first rumors of the Lions’ job searches have emerged.

www.prideofdetroit.com

If he keeps to form, a lot of players will be on the outs.

Is Stafford a football guy?

 

[Urban]

It's weird to look at my post, which specifically calls out the three good picks, and then claim that I'm "discrediting" them. I'm directly acknowledging them, and you're not the first person who's done this

I don't want to put words in your mouth- which I very may well be doing here- but I took your post as "Ward was the no brainer pick" and "if Dorsey really believed in Chubb, he would've taken him at 33 vs. 35". Don't think those picks need to be qualified, they were both home run picks.

I think to casual fans, Ward was blasted, but most of the draft chatter I remember had Ward as a favorite for that pick. I know in both my full offseason game, as well as my draft redo, I had Ward at 4, which was the second most popular option behind Chubb. I think that Quenton Nelson was actually the third most popular choice there.

Who are you saying is dealing out criticism? Certainly not I--I loved the pick then, and still love it now. I'm fairly sure I've been one of the highest people around on Denzel Ward since day one.

Maybe a favorite but Bradley Chubb was definitely seen as THE favorite for that pick across fans and media.

To the bolded- think you answered your own question here. Maybe I'm misremembering things but the Ward pick was not universally loved both in the media and in here. The leading sentiment in the media was that the Browns should've taken Bradley Chubb and the Broncos were elated they he fell to them. If you go back and read the first few posts on the Ward thread, you'll see people mostly happy with the player but that the Browns may've reached for a player at 4 that could've been there at 8 or 9, had they traded back.

What are you talking about here? Is it something specific that I'm missing, or is this just talking in hypotheticals? I'm simply saying that, outside of Baker, Chubb and Ward, Dorsey's entire draft classes from 2018 and 2019 were miserable. I think all of 2018 might even be off our roster already.

RE: back to Dorsey taking Corbett at 33 over Chubb at 35

 

[Soar]

Maybe a favorite but Bradley Chubb was definitely seen as THE favorite for that pick across fans and media.

To the bolded- think you answered your own question here. Maybe I'm misremembering things but the Ward pick was not universally loved both in the media and in here. The leading sentiment in the media was that the Browns should've taken Bradley Chubb and the Broncos were elated they he fell to them. If you go back and read the first few posts on the Ward thread, you'll see people mostly happy with the player but that the Browns may've reached for a player at 4 that could've been there at 8 or 9, had they traded back.

I remember Chubb was very well liked but most had no issue with Ward. There was a belief that maybe we could have traded back for Ward and gotten an extra pick or two. But I feel like a report came out after Denver was deciding between Chubb and Ward and the decision was made by us. Minkah was another name mentioned quite a bit.

Either way at least it wasn't Josh Rosen who many here thought was the second coming.

 

[FiveThous]

So is the question about Dorsey being good at talent evaluation? I mean, I think he's pretty good. As Browns fans we can easily compare him to the numerous GMs we've had before.

I do think that as an ~overall~ GM, Dorsey is worse than we gave him credit for. Too many shortcomings that sort of taint his ability to evaluate talent. But I don't think it's fair of any of us, given Dorsey's tenure both here and KC, to suggest that he wasn't good at evaluating talent.

I saw something along the lines of dorsey as your director of player personnel is as good as it gets, anything higher than that isnt the right fit for his skillset and I felt that was a fair assessment.

 

[FiveThous]

It's weird to discredit the good picks when you have that list of bad picks below.

Ward was definitely not seen as the consensus pick- Bradley Chubb was locked in at #4 in just about every single mock draft and that pick was kind of blasted. Pretty much every other post in the Ward thread was "happy with the pick, wish we traded down to get him. Would've preferred Chubb"And while Ward was seen as the #1 corner, he wasn't universally seen as the #1 DB- plenty reserved that spot to Derwin James and Minkah Fitzpatrick. We've seen this team pick in the Top 10 year after year and routinely screw it up, so again, the criticism here is weird.

Do GMs deserve criticism for a 3rd round pick becoming a Pro Bowler because they took a different player in the 1st and 2nd round?

Jaire Alexander was also in talks for CB1 and he might be the best CB in the league right now.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I saw something along the lines of dorsey as your director of player personnel is as good as it gets, anything higher than that isnt the right fit for his skillset and I felt that was a fair assessment.

I think you forgot how many truly awful GMs are out there.

This whole bump was just an attempt to keep people up on wherever he lands because he would likely be willing to trade for some of the Browns he drafted, perhaps even overvalue them. It's good when he gets a GM gig again. I hope it happens.

 

[FiveThous]

I think you forgot how many truly awful GMs are out there.

This whole bump was just an attempt to keep people up on wherever he lands because he would likely be willing to trade for some of the Browns he drafted, perhaps even overvalue them. It's good when he gets a GM gig again. I hope it happens.

I did not forget.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I don't want to put words in your mouth- which I very may well be doing here- but I took your post as "Ward was the no brainer pick" and "if Dorsey really believed in Chubb, he would've taken him at 33 vs. 35". Don't think those picks need to be qualified, they were both home run picks.



Maybe a favorite but Bradley Chubb was definitely seen as THE favorite for that pick across fans and media.

To the bolded- think you answered your own question here. Maybe I'm misremembering things but the Ward pick was not universally loved both in the media and in here. The leading sentiment in the media was that the Browns should've taken Bradley Chubb and the Broncos were elated they he fell to them. If you go back and read the first few posts on the Ward thread, you'll see people mostly happy with the player but that the Browns may've reached for a player at 4 that could've been there at 8 or 9, had they traded back.



RE: back to Dorsey taking Corbett at 33 over Chubb at 35

I think using the example of Chubb after Corbett just shows that Dorsey didn't know Chubb would turn into this He wasn't omniscient or clairvoyant. He just made a good pick. It's good to hit a pick out of the park like that. But I get wary when people try to use that as an example that Dorsey, as the supreme talent evaluator, knew the kind of player Chubb would turn into today. He didn't.

I think the Chubb and Callaway picks just show us more examples of what Dorsey was and likely still is. He focuses on skill positions, often to the detriment of other position groups, and bets on athletic ability and potential. It's fine. That strategy works out sometimes, and I align with it a lot. I like the Callaway pick and would take a shot like that again on the future, even though in this particular instance it didn't work out. I always try and evaluate the action over the result, and I think the gamble at that spot in the draft was a good one.

I just don't think he's a good talent evaluator, and I think nearly every pick he made outside of Baker, Chubb and Ward illustrates that. I think he looks to a specific, risky profile far too often, and doesn't draft enough good football players. It's fine. I think the NFL undervalues that profile of the risky player. But Dorsey goes too heavy on that profile for my liking, and failed to make up for it with any value in the rest of the draft.

Our 2020 draft was fantastic to my eye. We took players who can contribute, and even for the picks I didn't like, I understand why they were chosen. For Dorsey's drafts, players like Corbett and Takitaki didn't sit well with me when they were made, and then the results also followed, with the players not performing well in the NFL.

Thanks for the response. Cheers.

 

[CBBI]

From a pure talent evaluation standpoint, Dorsey is clearly good. He broke in as a scout and remains a good one.

But pretty much everything else that goes into being a general manager, the case could be made he's actively bad.

Dorsey has a track record of...

-Being very difficult to work with
-Badly mismanaging the salary cap
-Dumping talented players for no reason other than they were guilty of being guys he didn't draft
-Taking far too many gambles on character risks
-An inability to evaluate head coaching talent
-Significant meddling in coaching decisions, both from hiring assistants to personnel decisions on gameday

The list goes on and on.

But you can't deny his scouting hits. In seven drafts with the Chiefs and Browns, Dorsey selected 10 Pro Bowlers with four of them being All Pros and obviously one of them being the MVP of the league.

I wouldn't hire him as a GM, but we already lived through the good and bad of the John Dorsey experience so our perspective is biased.

 

[GonzoRatso88]

Here is how I view Dorsey:

-Was excellent at evaluating talent in both the draft and FA. He brought in Richardson, Hunt, Chubb, Ward, Mayfield, Avery, Teller, Mitchell. Considering where the Browns were before he arrived, he upgraded the talent. He also had some hits in KC but it is known that it was Andy Reid who loved Mahomes in KC not as much Dorsey.
-Upgrading the talent in Cleveland came at a cost in that he loved to draft guys with bad pasts. I am all for second chances but some guys are not worth it but he decided to give idiots like Antonio Callaway a chance. I am sure studies have been done that most guys who have checkered pasts tend to flame out in the NFL.
-He is known for being difficult to get along with and is very cocky. He does not seem like an open-minded guy when it comes to analytics and new ways of thinking.
-He ran the entire coaching search and the Haslams' went out of their way not to use Korn Ferry or another search firm (which are bad). He hired one of the worst head coaches I have ever seen. He either cannot identify good coaches or he wanted to control Kitchens and knew he would not be threatened by him a la Andy Reid in KC.

All in all, Dorsey is a glorified player personnel guy who should not be running an organization or leading a HC search. He is too old-school and will eventually flame out. He kind of reminds me of Jim Harbaugh in that he can do most of his job well but his style and personality eventually wear people out. Like @Randolphkeys said, this is positive for the Browns because he is likely willing to pay higher prices for some of "his guys" that are on the Browns roster now....

 

[Sebastian]

I think you forgot how many truly awful GMs are out there.

This whole bump was just an attempt to keep people up on wherever he lands because he would likely be willing to trade for some of the Browns he drafted, perhaps even overvalue them. It's good when he gets a GM gig again. I hope it happens.

I think this sums up your point best and should be highlighted.