How long should a rebuild realistically take?

[Cavatt]

I'm on team Garland if we have to choose between him and Sexton fwiw, buuuuuuuuut. I just can't ignore Sexton's work ethic. It fucking shows. Look at how much he continues to add to his frame which is small, even for a PG. He doesn't have wide collarbones to add frame to or wide chest. Yet, he continues to add to it every year. It's unusual. the guys that add mass have different base to work with and are usually not PGs.

I can not put a cap on his ceiling.. I just can't.

Now I just realized I have been typing my thoughts on unrelated threads... but it all connects, so oh well. I just go to where the traffic is.

I think the Jimmy Butler comparison is in effect for Sexton. He is just going to will himself there. He's 22, can you imagine him improving 10%? If yes, that is an allstar. I'd say he has improved 100% so far, he is more than 2x as good as he was a rook. 10% more isn't out of reach

 

[sailfish]

I think the Jimmy Butler comparison is in effect for Sexton. He is just going to will himself there. He's 22, can you imagine him improving 10%? If yes, that is an allstar. I'd say he has improved 100% so far, he is more than 2x as good as he was a rook. 10% more isn't out of reach

I understand it, but don’t care for the Butler comp because they’re such different players. Sexton has size limitations, in that he’s a 6’1” SG wrapped in a PG’s body. If he can play as an undersized SG and have a career, like CJ McConnell, that would be terrific. Sexton is a couple inches smaller than CJ, but no one is gonna outwork him.

Only time will tell, not only if he can make it as an undersized SG, but if he can mesh with a similar sized PG, like Garland. In a perfect world, Sexton is matched with a big PG, like Lamelo Ball.

 

[Cavatt]

I understand it, but don’t care for the Butler comp because they’re such different players. Sexton has size limitations, in that he’s a 6’1” SG wrapped in a PG’s body. If he can play as an undersized SG and have a career, like CJ McConnell, that would be terrific. Sexton is a couple inches smaller than CJ, but no one is gonna outwork him.

Only time will tell, not only if he can make it as an undersized SG, but if he can mesh with a similar sized PG, like Garland. In a perfect world, Sexton is matched with a big PG, like Lamelo Ball.

Butler is undersized at the 3 and has 6'8" wingspan. I just meant it as a mentality thing.

Sexton at 22 is scoring as well as Butler ever has in his entire career. What I am saying isn't crazy. Butler was 26 before he had more assists than Collin did this past year.

Defense is definitely another part of the story, but Jimmy was never a guy with a spooky feel for the game. He was just smart and figured it out.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

I understand it, but don’t care for the Butler comp because they’re such different players. Sexton has size limitations, in that he’s a 6’1” SG wrapped in a PG’s body. If he can play as an undersized SG and have a career, like CJ McConnell, that would be terrific. Sexton is a couple inches smaller than CJ, but no one is gonna outwork him.

Only time will tell, not only if he can make it as an undersized SG, but if he can mesh with a similar sized PG, like Garland. In a perfect world, Sexton is matched with a big PG, like Lamelo Ball.

Or Ben Simmons.

 

[Ozone]

I understand it, but don’t care for the Butler comp because they’re such different players. Sexton has size limitations, in that he’s a 6’1” SG wrapped in a PG’s body. If he can play as an undersized SG and have a career, like CJ McConnell, that would be terrific. Sexton is a couple inches smaller than CJ, but no one is gonna outwork him.

Only time will tell, not only if he can make it as an undersized SG, but if he can mesh with a similar sized PG, like Garland. In a perfect world, Sexton is matched with a big PG, like Lamelo Ball.

It is a mental/desire high ceiling worker comp and also one constantly discredited not a player style comp.

 

[sailfish]

It is a mental/desire high ceiling worker comp and also one constantly discredited not a player style comp.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Collin’s work ethic & determination. Guys like him can be a culture-driver & help lift everyone else’s effort level. My only questions with him are whether he can make it as a 6'1" SG and whether the current backcourt, with Garland, is sustainable.

 

[CleveRocks]

Don’t get me wrong, I love Collin’s work ethic & determination. Guys like him can be a culture-driver & help lift everyone else’s effort level. My only questions with him is whether the current backcourt, with Garland, is sustainable.

It's buckets vs buckets.. Sexton is no Mugsey Bogues.. He is tall enough to play in the league. Shorter players can still excel, but they have to be super strong.. Like Butler, or maybe a more similar comp is Beal.. Beal is a better shooter, but when you see him play in person, his conditioning really stands out.. He is strong enough to ignore incidental contact.. His first year in the league, to me he did not look "the bull" , but he has transformed as an adult into that. His game is ball handling in traffic and close quarters, finding seams and disrupting defenses.. In my opinion, he is similar to Kyrie that way.. But unlike Kyrie, he can take the bumps and dish out as good as he gets..

As for Garland, I was pretty sour on him until last year.. I kept hearing about his shiftyness, but seeing unaggressive play, and just giving up to more physical players on defense.. However, he has demonstrated better self control, and good vision passing to open team mates.. His defensive numbers are better than Colin's, but I would argue Colin got the tougher assignment most of the time..

I would like to see him get stronger as well., and show more commitment to defending..

In any case, I don't think I would trade either of those two, nor Okoro this year.. I don't think we make the playoffs, and I am looking to understand what we have.. If we can get one more lottery pick, I think next season we try to shuffle the deck to align the team better ( you can read that as adding a high end 3 to the lineup) and make run..

If we do make the playoffs, it will mean some of our gambles paid off.. Windler has a healthy season, or Stevens suddenly has a jump shot, Or Laurie starts actually being as good as he thinks he already us.. And if Love manages to right his ship, we trade him to a contender mid season and crack a champaign bottle..

 

[Cavatt]

It's buckets vs buckets.. Sexton is no Mugsey Bogues.. He is tall enough to play in the league. Shorter players can still excel, but they have to be super strong.. Like Butler, or maybe a more similar comp is Beal.. Beal is a better shooter, but when you see him play in person, his conditioning really stands out.. He is strong enough to ignore incidental contact.. His first year in the league, to me he did not look "the bull" , but he has transformed as an adult into that. His game is ball handling in traffic and close quarters, finding seams and disrupting defenses.. In my opinion, he is similar to Kyrie that way.. But unlike Kyrie, he can take the bumps and dish out as good as he gets..

As for Garland, I was pretty sour on him until last year.. I kept hearing about his shiftyness, but seeing unaggressive play, and just giving up to more physical players on defense.. However, he has demonstrated better self control, and good vision passing to open team mates.. His defensive numbers are better than Colin's, but I would argue Colin got the tougher assignment most of the time..

I would like to see him get stronger as well., and show more commitment to defending..

In any case, I don't think I would trade either of those two, nor Okoro this year.. I don't think we make the playoffs, and I am looking to understand what we have.. If we can get one more lottery pick, I think next season we try to shuffle the deck to align the team better ( you can read that as adding a high end 3 to the lineup) and make run..

If we do make the playoffs, it will mean some of our gambles paid off.. Windler has a healthy season, or Stevens suddenly has a jump shot, Or Laurie starts actually being as good as he thinks he already us.. And if Love manages to right his ship, we trade him to a contender mid season and crack a champaign bottle..

I think they just really lost a year to injury, the same way the Nets just had Durant sit a year. The data unfortunately didn't tell use very much last year as our squad was woefully incomplete for the entire year. Cavs have had bad injuries before, but never like this. Dotson was 8th in minutes, which was never what you want to see. Last year was supposed to be the "let's see what we have here", but it was just trying to hold on.

Totally agree with you that this is now, let's see what we have. We have our first long term pieces actually signed in Allen and Lauri. We have our top 3 pick who the team is high on and believe can be a franchise guy. We have a pg who became a player last year and we need to become a good player this year. We have a leading scorer who is top 20 in scoring. We have a good guy vet presence who should help the offense in Rubio.

I think this is much closer to proof of concept than we have had before. I think this is better than that Spencer Hawes Loul Deng team Kyrie played on. It's not a finished product, but it is more of a complete team with defined roles than it was before. Get that last lottery pick or win the play in.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I think they just really lost a year to injury, the same way the Nets just had Durant sit a year. The data unfortunately didn't tell use very much last year as our squad was woefully incomplete for the entire year. Cavs have had bad injuries before, but never like this. Dotson was 8th in minutes, which was never what you want to see. Last year was supposed to be the "let's see what we have here", but it was just trying to hold on.

Totally agree with you that this is now, let's see what we have. We have our first long term pieces actually signed in Allen and Lauri. We have our top 3 pick who the team is high on and believe can be a franchise guy. We have a pg who became a player last year and we need to become a good player this year. We have a leading scorer who is top 20 in scoring. We have a good guy vet presence who should help the offense in Rubio.

I think this is much closer to proof of concept than we have had before. I think this is better than that Spencer Hawes Loul Deng team Kyrie played on. It's not a finished product, but it is more of a complete team with defined roles than it was before. Get that last lottery pick or win the play in.

I agree that Altman essentially creates two teams on the roster: Prime Cavs and Development Cavs.

Prime Cavs went and fell off a cliff last season. I'm sad to see Nance go, but I kept pointing out that he is headed to almost as many missed games as Love... until Love shut it down with a little over a week to go. Cedi regressed, Delly retired a year early and didn't tell us.

Some Cavs I will remember fondly on that list, but it won't be for what they gave us in 2020.

Now the next "Prime team" includes Rubio, Lauri and Allen. I will go ahead and lump Cedi and Sexton into cusp prime. They are the control group and we should know what we are getting from them. The "Development team" is responsible for minutes, just like before.

The weight of franchise success rests on their improvement. If Okoro keeps looking like Josh Okogie, we aren't improving. Windler is 25 and needs production to match his age. If Garland isn't making a jump as a point guard and leader, we are treading water.

 

[Cavatt]

I agree that Altman essentially creates two teams on the roster: Prime Cavs and Development Cavs.

Prime Cavs went and fell off a cliff last season. I'm sad to see Nance go, but I kept pointing out that he is headed to almost as many missed games as Love... until Love shut it down with a little over a week to go. Cedi regressed, Delly retired a year early and didn't tell us.

Some Cavs I will remember fondly on that list, but it won't be for what they gave us in 2020.

Now the next "Prime team" includes Rubio, Lauri and Allen. I will go ahead and lump Cedi and Sexton into cusp prime. They are the control group and we should know what we are getting from them. The "Development team" is responsible for minutes, just like before.

The weight of franchise success rests on their improvement. If Okoro keeps looking like Josh Okogie, we aren't improving. Windler is 25 and needs production to match his age. If Garland isn't making a jump as a point guard and leader, we are treading water.

Good point about the prime vs developmental group. I do think I have more faith in the prime group than I did last year.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Good point about the prime vs developmental group. I do think I have more faith in the prime group than I did last year.

Prime group last year also included Andre Drummond. His career has fallen off a cliff. A chucking center is not a hot commodity in the 2021 NBA.

 

[Cavatt]

Prime group last year also included Andre Drummond. His career has fallen off a cliff. A chucking center is not a hot commodity in the 2021 NBA.

Yeah too bad there isn't a Barf version of the like. That was the year for me. Young guys even including Wade and Stevens showed more than the vets on the team. Hell Varejao showed more than some of the vet guys on the team.

I loved Drummond's defense when he was playing with Nance, but he is the dumbest offensive player I have seen. I can't believe he didn't have more Shaqtin a fools like McGee used to. Very glad we don't have Drummond and Denzel on the floor at the same time.

I