Hue vs. Sashi: You must keep 1

[Binkster]

If I have to keep one it's Hue.

It's glaringly obvious this is not the roster he'd have constructed if he were in charge of personnel. Kizer has been atrocious and it's a strong possibility Hue was pressured to start him.

Decisions to pass up guys like Hooker (pre-injury), Wentz, Bosa, Zeke, and Watson don't fall on his shoulders. Why haven't we drafted a running back in the middle rounds since Duke?

That said, you can make a big case for Hue losing his job... The QB situation is not one of them. He's dealing with three bad quarterbacks and the rookie has been the worst of the bunch.

You don't just keep him out there for the sake of keeping him out there. You owe it to your entire roster to try to win.

 

[Soda]

Christ, Coleman has been infinitely more productive than Peppers and I included him on the list too. Where's the outrage over that? Oh yeah...he went to Baylor.

He's played 12 games in 23 opportunities. Has 39 catches for 475 yards & 4 TDs in that time. I think that's a pretty fair sample size to be able to comment on his durability, dependability, & play. So, I think there's enough to have an opinion there. Lambasting Peppers this early screams agenda.

 

[FiveThous]

The people lambasting Peppers have zero right crowning Watson king and a sure fire miss by the FO. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Soda]

The people lambasting Peppers have zero right crowning Watson king and a sure fire miss by the FO. You can't have it both ways.

Or, the Hooker fans talking about Myles Garrett being "made of glass".

 

[Lee]

-Schwartz
-Coleman
-Pryor (yes he hasn't done shit in WAS yet, we'll see if he gets it together)
-Britt
-Peppers
-Kizer

Coleman I agree, some see potential, i see a small receiver who was a third round talent.

Pryor didnt want to be here, offered him same money as Washington and for long term, nothing we can do, cant force a player to stay without using franchise, Pryor not worth franchise,

Didnt work out well, but best available free agent for reasonable money. Had a good year before, not really the f/o fault.

Not sure on Peppers yet, we will see. I think this is more coaching issue than anything, but i didnt love the pick, that i agree with.

Kizer. Agree there, didnt like the pick, didnt like Watson either though, would have loved to go with one of the other QB's available.

The F/O will always make mistakes, but they seem allot more limmited now in my opinion, Hue on the other hand has been utter shit.

 

[FiveThous]

Blew 3rd and 2nd round picks on quarterbacks. Kessler was a reach in the 3rd and Kizer was a developmental guy who you don't have the time/talent to develop. Also passed on Malik Hooker.

I picked Keep Sashi but I was surprised when I made my best arguments for both, how much easier it was to argue in favor of Hue. I will say that it IS probably unfair to pin all of the Wentz pass on the front office. It seemed like as a group they really wanted Goff, and once it was clear he was going #1, we were going to get off the #2 pick. And I recall most people didn't want Wentz there. I will not kill them for not seeing it. Many high quarterbacks miss. I cannot stress enough that to say "we should have taken Wentz" means this roster would be in far worse shape than it already is. At the same time, it was their decision to dismantle it.

In retrospect, the right move might have been keep Schwartz, Gipson, and Travis Benjamin, draft Wentz. Schwartz means you don't need Shon Coleman. Gipson means you don't really miss Kindred or Peppers. Wentz also turned into 2 quarterback selections who would be irrelevant assuming Browns Wentz is similar to Eagles Wentz. That leaves Corey Coleman who can't stay on the field and Ricardo Louis who is a fringe player at best. We have no WR in this scenario other than Benjamin who is a #3-4 at best, and the remaining dregs we currently have. This scenario almost certainly means we don't have Myles Garrett. The above team probably wins 3-4 games meaning we are drafting between 3rd and 5th, deciding between perhaps Solomon Thomas at DE (he's been just OK) , Fournette (unlikely we take an RB that high), or Jamal Adams (dammit, he would look good next to Gibson.) The team still would have no real weapons for Wentz (unless they reached for Corey Davis in 2017, or had identified Michael Thomas in the 2nd round in 2016). The offense is still bad unless Wentz is really a miracle worker. Or, if you give him Michael Thomas, you lose Ogbah. The defensive ends are Nassib and Orchard. Neither are starting material.

I actually don't blame them for the QB picks, I think you should try drafting a QB every year. ESPECIALLY if you don't already have a franchise guy. I like the lotto ticket aspect of mid round fliers on QBs. You take QBs like this every year and hope you luck into a Cousins, Brees or Wilson if you miss out on the consensus #1 pick. It makes it easier to walk away from them if you happen on to the next Franchise QB.

EDIT: For example, do you think the Dolphins would have moved on from Tannehill or the Jags from Bortles if they were mid round picks? I think they may have.

 

[Lee]

If I have to keep one it's Hue.

It's glaringly obvious this is not the roster he'd have constructed if he were in charge of personnel. Kizer has been atrocious and it's a strong possibility Hue was pressured to start him.

Decisions to pass up guys like Hooker (pre-injury), Wentz, Bosa, Zeke, and Watson don't fall on his shoulders. Why haven't we drafted a running back in the middle rounds since Duke?

That said, you can make a big case for Hue losing his job... The QB situation is not one of them. He's dealing with three bad quarterbacks and the rookie has been the worst of the bunch.

You don't just keep him out there for the sake of keeping him out there. You owe it to your entire roster to try to win.

The roster is improved in talent, the issue this year has been the offense, Hue's expertise. The lack of a OC screams as an issue when the offense has looked this bad.

 

[FiveThous]

Reasons why I'm pro Sashi. I'm not as down on Coleman as some of you are. I think he's had a couple fluke injuries that have hurt his development. I think Ogbah has looked good. I think Schobert, Louis, Kindred, Shon Coleman, DeValve, and Higgins have all shown flashes of being capable NFL players.

In 2017 I think Garret and Njoku have already shown STUD potential. Peppers, imo, has been miscast in his role but has looked good in the return game. Kizer has left a lot to be desired so far. Ogunjobi has looked great vs the run. We shold have Howard Wilson back soon and he is supposed to be a playmaking CB. Caleb Brantely has looked solid overall (that penalty yesterday sucked). Rod Johnson is on IR if I remember correctly. Zane Gonzalez has been meh.

FA signings this off season have been solid. The OL are playing well enough to not blast them as overrated. Britt has been a HUGE let down for me, I thought he was going to beast. McCourty has been playing at an extremely high level.

I didn't get into the UDFA but Boddy Calhoun has also been playing extremely well while on the field.

Reasons why I'm pro Hue: Players around the league love him and he's brought in a great staff that has respect across the league. He's left a lot on the field in terms of play calling and scheming to his talent.

The FO to me has hit on a lot of their moves, the blatant misses to me have been day 3 picks, which everyone does, so who cares? I'm guessing their plan was to acquire picks over the first few years and target their QB this year. This gave them the time to surround the QB with some talent. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if their first 3 picks this year were QB/WR/CB in that order. I don't think they have some super system that says the QB isn't valuable and they think they are smarter than everyone else in the league. I think they've looked at other recent models like the Raiders and saw how important it was to have a solid OL and run game to bring in a young QB with. The Raiders also had a similar tear down job when McKenzie took that job.

I loved the Hue hire and was shocked he chose us amidst all the options. I really thought he would scheme a bit better for us and that's let me down. His clock management has been piss poor but he's fairly correct and his 4th down numbers so there's some good and bad things. I'd like to see them get at least one more year assuming they go qb/wr/cb with their first 3 picks.

I know I've said I wanted Hue gone on here but I should clarify my position. If it comes down to Hue or the FO I'd rather Hue be the one shown the door.

 

[Matches]

I actually don't blame them for the QB picks, I think you should try drafting a QB every year. ESPECIALLY if you don't already have a franchise guy. I like the lotto ticket aspect of mid round fliers on QBs. You take QBs like this every year and hope you luck into a Cousins, Brees or Wilson if you miss out on the consensus #1 pick. It makes it easier to walk away from them if you happen on to the next Franchise QB.

EDIT: For example, do you think the Dolphins would have moved on from Tannehill or the Jags from Bortles if they were mid round picks? I think they may have.

This may indeed be part of their strategy. I considered this a good idea in theory, but wonder about the reality, you could end up with a case where a coach has no idea who the best option is when you load a roster with a rookie, a 2nd year, and a 3rd year prospect. We're 2/3rd of the way down the road and it's a disaster because hitting on players in that range is crazy rare. Since 1999 between pick 36 and 145 there have been 60 or so shitty quarterbacks picked, and 3 good ones. Those 3 have happened in the last 5 years (Prescott, Wilson, and Cousins) so it seems viable. But I don't like those odds, and I think they're worse when you have simultaneously dismantled the team surrounding the QB flyers you're taking.

 

[Soda]

We shold have Howard Wilson back soon and he is supposed to be a playmaking CB. .

So, I'm confused by this and am questioning whether or not he'll be back at all this season.. He was eligible to practice coming into the game against Tennessee and the Browns would have 3 weeks to evaluate whether or not he can come back depending on how he does in practice. I don't think the Cleveland media asked about him until Friday or something & Hue said he "still has a chance" to come back. Doesn't sound very promising.

 

[FiveThous]

This may indeed be part of their strategy. I considered this a good idea in theory, but wonder about the reality, you could end up with a case where a coach has no idea who the best option is when you load a roster with a rookie, a 2nd year, and a 3rd year prospect. We're 2/3rd of the way down the road and it's a disaster because hitting on players in that range is crazy rare. Since 1999 between pick 36 and 145 there have been 60 or so shitty quarterbacks picked, and 3 good ones. Those 3 have happened in the last 5 years (Prescott, Wilson, and Cousins) so it seems viable. But I don't like those odds, and I think they're worse when you have simultaneously dismantled the team surrounding the QB flyers you're taking.

Won't argue with any of your retort, but to be fair, I did say lotto ticket. I should not have assumed people would think I meant it's a long shot.

 

[Matches]

Won't argue with any of your retort, but to be fair, I did say lotto ticket. I should not have assumed people would think I meant it's a long shot.

Yep. I just don't think it's a good idea at the QB position.

But it's obvious Hue has NO clue what to do with the quarterbacks on his roster. We all realize that the guy he didn't even dress for the first several weeks is now very likely to suddenly Best Chance To Win Guy this week, right?

And YES, put the the guy you think is the best out there. BUT let's say at the beginning of the year Hue thought Kizer gave you a 20% chance to win and Hogan gave you a 15% chance, and Kessler gave you a 10% chance. Therefore, Kizer is the starter. Great.

Except events transpire and now Kizer is demoted to a 14% chance because he keeps turning it over in the red zone. Is the difference between the two so great that you need to upset the apple cart by pulling Kizer and rolling with KEVIN HOGAN?? And then Hogan shits the BED. Of course he does. So now we deem Hogan gives us an 8% chance. And Best Chance To Win Guy is Kizer again. Until he throws 2 picks and you're like, "You know what, I think Kizer only gives me a 9% chance to win" so congrats Cody, now you are Best Chance To Win Guy.

This after you said about Kizer when you originally named him the starter, "I'm going to ride this with DeShone, you know the good, the bad or whatever comes."

The only thing I absolutely know about Hue Jackson after nearly 2 years is that he is completely full of shit.

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[Ohio]

He's played 12 games in 23 opportunities. Has 39 catches for 475 yards & 4 TDs in that time. I think that's a pretty fair sample size to be able to comment on his durability, dependability, & play. So, I think there's enough to have an opinion there. Lambasting Peppers this early screams agenda.

The people lambasting Peppers have zero right crowning Watson king and a sure fire miss by the FO. You can't have it both ways.

Again, I'm not crowning anyone nor am I calling anyone a bust.

Yes, I am critical of the Coleman, Peppers, Kizer picks especially because I wanted nothing to do with them before the draft, and players I did want were overlooked and have simply played better so far. In some cases, significantly better.

Let me put it this way so people can understand my point: If you could redo the drafts right now, would you do it the same way? Would you take those 3 players? Fuck no you wouldn't. Nobody would. That's really all I'm saying...I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp, but if you're being honest with yourself, you're agreeing with what I am saying.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to say the players on my list were wrongdoings by the FO. Sure, Peppers can develop into a good player. Coleman can maybe develop into a solid WR2 and hopefully find a way to stay healthy. Kizer...well, I don't know about that one But elite talent was overlooked for these players. That is why the FO was wrong. It doesn't mean Peppers & co are trash.

 

[FiveThous]

Again, I'm not crowning anyone nor am I calling anyone a bust.

Yes, I am critical of the Coleman, Peppers, Kizer picks especially because I wanted nothing to do with them before the draft, and players I did want were overlooked and have simply played better so far. In some cases, significantly better.

Let me put it this way so people can understand my point: If you could redo the drafts right now, would you do it the same way? Would you take those 3 players? Fuck no you wouldn't. Nobody would. That's really all I'm saying...I don't know why this is so hard for people to grasp, but if you're being honest with yourself, you're agreeing with what I am saying.

I don't think it's a stretch at all to say the players on my list were wrongdoings by the FO. Sure, Peppers can develop into a good player. Coleman can maybe develop into a solid WR2 and hopefully find a way to stay healthy. Kizer...well, I don't know about that one But elite talent was overlooked for these players. That is why the FO was wrong. It doesn't mean Peppers & co are trash.

Kizer was the only pick that was suspect to me through the first 4 this year. I happen to think Peppers was an elite talent, I still think he could be the next Polamalu (sp?). I would take Coleman again because his measurables and college production are basically the same as OBJ.

 

[FiveThous]

Yep. I just don't think it's a good idea at the QB position.

But it's obvious Hue has NO clue what to do with the quarterbacks on his roster. We all realize that the guy he didn't even dress for the first several weeks is now very likely to suddenly Best Chance To Win Guy this week, right?

And YES, put the the guy you think is the best out there. BUT let's say at the beginning of the year Hue thought Kizer gave you a 20% chance to win and Hogan gave you a 15% chance, and Kessler gave you a 10% chance. Therefore, Kizer is the starter. Great.

Except events transpire and now Kizer is demoted to a 14% chance because he keeps turning it over in the red zone. Is the difference between the two so great that you need to upset the apple cart by pulling Kizer and rolling with KEVIN HOGAN?? And then Hogan shits the BED. Of course he does. So now we deem Hogan gives us an 8% chance. And Best Chance To Win Guy is Kizer again. Until he throws 2 picks and you're like, "You know what, I think Kizer only gives me a 9% chance to win" so congrats Cody, now you are Best Chance To Win Guy.

This after you said about Kizer when you originally named him the starter, "I'm going to ride this with DeShone, you know the good, the bad or whatever comes."

The only thing I absolutely know about Hue Jackson after nearly 2 years is that he is completely full of shit.

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That's the frustrating part of Hue. For being a QB whispered, he hasn't shown an ounce of that to date.