Koby Altman

[inliner311]

Umm Wade and even Rose were doing just fine here when healthy and both being vets , they know how to turn it up a few notches in the playoffs. Most experinced GM’s know this and it was the main reason we obtained them in the 1st place and then the dope head dumps both .You give Kobe an out with mentioning it’s difficult to be a GM with Gilbert over his shoulder and then blame Lue.. umm why not just blame the head fuck face Gilbert who started this whole debacle of inexperienced FO peeps and coaching staffs ..

At the end of the day you have to take the good with the bad with Gilbert. He seems to have power struggles with GMs and he let go a perfectly good GM in Griff. I just don't know if there is an owner who would keep paying luxury tax like he has. That might be one of the things that keeps LeBron in Cleveland, he know Gilbert isn't going to cheap out. Gilbert has also invested a ton in the city too which can't be discounted. Very few owners would invest the money he has in the city which he isn't even from.

 

[cavsfever]

I'm so fuckin' tired of hearing about what the Cavs should have or should not have done where Kyrie is concerned. It's beyond old news at this point, can we move the fuck on and focus on what needs to happen to make a deep playoff push, retain LeBron and refortify for next year?

People here still haven't moved on from Lebron's Game 6 performance against the Celtics in freaking 2010, and you want people to move on from a disastrous trade that is less than a year old and is still a key to everything we see on the court right now? Just another example of the double standard around here toward the front office. Internet discussion boards discuss stuff that happened in the past, deal with it.

 

[JMoneyYourHoney]

Internet discussion boards discuss stuff that happened in the past, deal with it.

Kyrie was traded and he isn't coming back. Deal with it.

 

[chuck0609]

LOL "a lot of moves". The problem is they have to be GOOD moves

And the issue isn't just Kyrie going but what we got for him, which unless we hit pretty big on the draft pick will be nothing

Kyrie hit them at the worst possible time. George/Butler were already gone. I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul at the time.
The moves at the deadline were eyed toward this year as well as the future. DG expanded capital output AGAIN for LBJ, and got younger while preserving the Boston pick. What owner has spent more for a player than DG for LBJ?
Underlying all of this is LBJ's looming FA, and DG doesn't want to be left in the same situation as 2010 by LBJ.
I run a business, I can appreciate hedging.
Finally, this summer has yet to unfold. If LBJ leaves, they have capital to move around for younger assets (Love esp). They have young promising talent (Zizic, Cedi, Nance). They have a high pick.
Conversely, they can attempt a big move in FA if LBJ stays (Kawahi anyone?).
Kyrie leaving SUCKED- but they created a path forward in all scenarios.

 

[Mavaliersfan]

At the end of the day you have to take the good with the bad with Gilbert. He seems to have power struggles with GMs and he let go a perfectly good GM in Griff. I just don't know if there is an owner who would keep paying luxury tax like he has. That might be one of the things that keeps LeBron in Cleveland, he know Gilbert isn't going to cheap out. Gilbert has also invested a ton in the city too which can't be discounted. Very few owners would invest the money he has in the city which he isn't even from.

Gilbert had every right to do what he did. He didn't feel comfortable being beholden to LeBron this off-season and wanted to take a long-term approach to building the team. Griffin wanted to continue to maximize the current window we have now with LeBron and go all-in with everything. Gilbert had the final say so we just have to live with it. At the end of the day it's his money and his team. Can you blame him for at least wanting a GM with a philosophy that aligns with his? Like Koby has said, Dan forks over a lot of money and shouldn't he at least have some say on some things? Just wish people would pause and put their self in Dan's shoes for just a minute - even if they don't agree with the direction of the team.

 

[Green Lantern]

Umm Wade and even Rose were doing just fine here when healthy and both being vets , they know how to turn it up a few notches in the playoffs. Most experinced GM’s know this and it was the main reason we obtained them in the 1st place and then the dope head dumps both .You give Kobe an out with mentioning it’s difficult to be a GM with Gilbert over his shoulder and then blame Lue.. umm why not just blame the head fuck face Gilbert who started this whole debacle of inexperienced FO peeps and coaching staffs ..

I would disagree with that .Rose was not doing that good here. His shot wasn't dropping(like it ever did) and he's simply a slash/finish type of player.
Wade was ok, but it more due to the issues he had in the locker room than on the court, but even he was limited in what he can do in spurts.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I believe Rose Wade and Frye would have helped us more than Nance Clarkson and Hood. This years playoffs, their experience alone elevated them above the 3 mentioned .

Rose is a ball-dominant PG with no outside shot, which makes him a terrible pairing with LBJ. The coach you adore, Tyronn Lue, ended up not playing him at all.

Wade would be useful. But he didn't want to be here, and from everything that leaked out, Tyronn Lue (again) was having a real problem with him in the locker room. Best indicator here is that his best friend, LBJ, signed off on him leaving despite them being friends, and despite what he was doing for us on the court. Also, Lue decided he wanted to play Cedi more, and so was going to cut Wade's minutes. Oddly, after cutting Wade and then playing Cedi, he knocked Cedi out of the rotation.

Frye is a decent role player. Nance is better, both short and long term. Lue (again) didn't even play Frye against GSW last year, and it is difficult to imagine why he would have done differently with Frye being a year older.

 

[cavsfever]

Kyrie hit them at the worst possible time. George/Butler were already gone. I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul at the time.
The moves at the deadline were eyed toward this year as well as the future. DG expanded capital output AGAIN for LBJ, and got younger while preserving the Boston pick. What owner has spent more for a player than DG for LBJ?
Underlying all of this is LBJ's looming FA, and DG doesn't want to be left in the same situation as 2010 by LBJ.
I run a business, I can appreciate hedging.
Finally, this summer has yet to unfold. If LBJ leaves, they have capital to move around for younger assets (Love esp). They have young promising talent (Zizic, Cedi, Nance). They have a high pick.
Conversely, they can attempt a big move in FA if LBJ stays (Kawahi anyone?).
Kyrie leaving SUCKED- but they created a path forward in all scenarios.

"Kyrie hit them" -- like it is at all acceptable that they were blindsided by this.

"I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul" -- blows my mind that people keep making excuses for this trade. Boston trade was not a "haul", it was a "haul" like when my kid gets a bunch of little plastic trinkets and is happy because he has toys, doesn't care what they are. If our 8th pick in this year's draft doesn't pay off then we got basically nothing for Kyrie. Have you been watching Khris Middleton in the Bucks - Celtics series? Think a guy like that might be helpful right now? Well, we know for sure Middleton, Brogdon, and something else was available for Kyrie. Kemba Walker might have been available for Kyrie. etc.

To say nothing of the fact that we gave Kyrie away to one of our biggest conference rivals.

I'll take some, but not all of this, back if we can hit it big on the draft pick one way or another.

 

[Benedict_Boozer]

I don't think you can really judge Altman's pickups because of how horrendously Lue is managing the rotations and incorporating them into the team. I personally like the deadline moves and think they position us much better for the future, but these are younger guys that need to be coached and play in a system - Lue is not that guy and with his health issues, he REALLY is not that guy.

Altman's mistake was being loyal and sticking with Lue. His hands are tied somewhat because you can't constantly churn through coaches, and Dan probably doesn't want to have another fired coach on his payroll. But riding it out with Lue could end up costing him Lebron and his job.

 

[chuck0609]

"Kyrie hit them" -- like it is at all acceptable that they were blindsided by this.

"I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul" -- blows my mind that people keep making excuses for this trade. Boston trade was not a "haul", it was a "haul" like when my kid gets a bunch of little plastic trinkets and is happy because he has toys, doesn't care what they are. If our 8th pick in this year's draft doesn't pay off then we got basically nothing for Kyrie. Have you been watching Khris Middleton in the Bucks - Celtics series? Think a guy like that might be helpful right now? Well, we know for sure Middleton, Brogdon, and something else was available for Kyrie. Kemba Walker might have been available for Kyrie. etc.

To say nothing of the fact that we gave Kyrie away to one of our biggest conference rivals.

I'll take some, but not all of this, back if we can hit it big on the draft pick one way or another.

I get the frustration, but looking at it realistically I don’t see what, if anything they change.
It’s not like the Browns fucking up picks (the Cavs have done this too) or the the tribe not picking up another bat.

 

[Benedict_Boozer]

"Kyrie hit them" -- like it is at all acceptable that they were blindsided by this.

"I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul" -- blows my mind that people keep making excuses for this trade. Boston trade was not a "haul", it was a "haul" like when my kid gets a bunch of little plastic trinkets and is happy because he has toys, doesn't care what they are. If our 8th pick in this year's draft doesn't pay off then we got basically nothing for Kyrie. Have you been watching Khris Middleton in the Bucks - Celtics series? Think a guy like that might be helpful right now? Well, we know for sure Middleton, Brogdon, and something else was available for Kyrie. Kemba Walker might have been available for Kyrie. etc.

To say nothing of the fact that we gave Kyrie away to one of our biggest conference rivals.

I'll take some, but not all of this, back if we can hit it big on the draft pick one way or another.

I agree with you that the Kyrie trade was a disaster, and looks worse by the day.

But until the pick lands or we move it, it's really impossible to judge. Especially if Kyrie is going to continually be hobbled with these knee problems, his value would have gone nowhere but down. So Altman was pretty much stuck in a no win situation.

He is gambling big on this Nets pick no doubt.

 

[cavsfever]

I get the frustration, but looking at it realistically I don’t see what, if anything they change.
It’s not like the Browns fucking up picks (the Cavs have done this too) or the the tribe not picking up another bat.

I've gone through this before, but we did have options. Ultimately making the best of the situation involved playing hardball -- being willing to walk away from the table and not trade Kyrie at the beginning of the season. That wouldn't have hurt us; there is no way this regular season could have turned out worse. And it would have shaken loose more assets from the tree, because we flat out didn't get value for Kyrie.

Options included:

--getting something that actually mattered to the Celtics in this trade, instead of letting Danny Ainge bend us over and take our best asset in exchange for stuff they didn't give a shit about. If we were going to go for draft picks, we needed to get both the Nets pick AND the LA/Sacramento pick they got from Philly. In terms of players, we needed to get either Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum. We were soft as cream puffs with the Celtics, apparently we didn't even negotiate really. To all the people who say "the Celtics wouldn't have done that" -- in negotiations people ALWAYS say they aren't willing to do things. You have to play hardball and threaten to walk away. The Celtics got value on both ends of this trade, they got addition by subtraction in dumping IT and just plain addition by getting Kyrie. They gave up nothing they really valued. The Nets pick, sure they liked having it, but once they got the LA/Sacramento pick it was redundant to their immediate needs.

--taking the probable Milwaukee offer of Brogdon + Middleton + something else. If we had negotiated tough the "something else" could have been of real value. Brogdon is looking like just an OK player but still better than George Hill and still on his rookie contract. Middleton has star potential (look at how he's playing in the Celtics series now). Not a great trade but still could easily end up being better than what we got, depending on how the draft pick works out. DEFINITELY we would be a lot better in this year's playoffs if we had traded with Milwaukee.

--there were other potentially available players around the league, the Kemba Walkers, etc. of the world. Future stars who just started to become evident this year. It's the Cavs front office job to find those, not mine.

Again, this changes if we hit a home run on the Nets pick. But man, if it works out we dodged a bullet and it's not because we negotiated well at all.

 

[inliner311]

Kyrie hit them at the worst possible time. George/Butler were already gone. I still haven't seen a hypothetical trade that was available better than the Boston haul at the time.
The moves at the deadline were eyed toward this year as well as the future. DG expanded capital output AGAIN for LBJ, and got younger while preserving the Boston pick. What owner has spent more for a player than DG for LBJ?
Underlying all of this is LBJ's looming FA, and DG doesn't want to be left in the same situation as 2010 by LBJ.
I run a business, I can appreciate hedging.
Finally, this summer has yet to unfold. If LBJ leaves, they have capital to move around for younger assets (Love esp). They have young promising talent (Zizic, Cedi, Nance). They have a high pick.
Conversely, they can attempt a big move in FA if LBJ stays (Kawahi anyone?).
Kyrie leaving SUCKED- but they created a path forward in all scenarios.

People like to forget that Kyrie threaten to have surgery and not play the season. He isn't playing in the playoffs right now because he had that surgery. I'm not sure if the first one could have waited or not but the timing was odd.

We moved IT and he had season ending surgery too. The deadline trades had to happen. Koby had to add one additional player to the Utah/Kings deal make salaries work. I think Rose was the natural choice because of his injury.

Rose is a ball-dominant PG with no outside shot, which makes him a terrible pairing with LBJ. The coach you adore, Tyronn Lue, ended up not playing him at all.

Wade would be useful. But he didn't want to be here, and from everything that leaked out, Tyronn Lue (again) was having a real problem with him in the locker room. Best indicator here is that his best friend, LBJ, signed off on him leaving despite them being friends, and despite what he was doing for us on the court. Also, Lue decided he wanted to play Cedi more, and so was going to cut Wade's minutes. Oddly, after cutting Wade and then playing Cedi, he knocked Cedi out of the rotation.

Frye is a decent role player. Nance is better, both short and long term. Lue (again) didn't even play Frye against GSW last year, and it is difficult to imagine why he would have done differently with Frye being a year older.

It wasn't just the 3 point shot that kept Rose from working. He just couldn't slash then pass the ball to the outside corners quick and effectively. It was a big part of the offense with Kyrie. It was what got the ball moving and defenses on their heels. We have seen it work well when LeBron is doing it in this Indy series, he just doesn't have the energy to it all the time.

I do think that Rose and LeBron would have figured out an effective way move the ball if Rose was healthy the whole time. Just like Wade figure out how make the bench work effectively, with time I think Rose and LeBron would have came up with something. It just wasn't in the cards with the games left and 4 new players.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Kyrie missed the last 22 games of this season, plus the playoffs. Interestingly, Boston went 14-8 without him. I don't think that's an accident. He's a phenomenal offensive player but gives an awful lot back on the defensive end.

We turned Kyrie into Nance, Zizic, George Hill, some other stuff, and that pick. I think it is too soon to know who really won that trade, especially given Kyrie's multi-year history of knee problems.

 

[CTownSportsFan]

At the end of the day you have to take the good with the bad with Gilbert. He seems to have power struggles with GMs and he let go a perfectly good GM in Griff. I just don't know if there is an owner who would keep paying luxury tax like he has. That might be one of the things that keeps LeBron in Cleveland, he know Gilbert isn't going to cheap out. Gilbert has also invested a ton in the city too which can't be discounted. Very few owners would invest the money he has in the city which he isn't even from.

I don’t know. I wish I could like the guy but to me it’s seems he uses money to gain respect. This only makes sense being as short as he is. You do mention “invest” and his return on those investments has nearly doubled his overall net worth. imho if he from the beginning hired alpha FO people and stepped out of the way, he could have saved himself 10’s of millions and gained just as much respect. Him throwing around money is basically his fault from all his f’ed up hires and a form of attempting to clean up his own mess.