LeBron James

[Zog]

Very interesting. I have to go to bards to watch NBATV, so I was there watching a game, and this guy says the "League isn't as good as when Jordan played". I said, "Everyone can shoot better, defensive schemes are more complex, and the overall talent level is much much higher. We can talk about whether anyone is as good as Jordan, but the league as a whole is just a much better product all around." People always romanticize this or that.

What was his response to this?

 

[godfather]

Very interesting. I have to go to bards to watch NBATV, so I was there watching a game, and this guy says the "League isn't as good as when Jordan played". I said, "Everyone can shoot better, defensive schemes are more complex, and the overall talent level is much much higher. We can talk about whether anyone is as good as Jordan, but the league as a whole is just a much better product all around." People always romanticize this or that.

My only complaint over the years, is we've not seen as much skilled big men. I feel the game was getting a little too perimeter oriented, but the play of the big man is coming back, to mesh with this new era, it's much better at a fan standpoint.

Remember the regular 70 point games we'd see at times? I don't miss that at all. The NBA needed to clean up some of that stuff and make it a little more offensive oriented.

 

[czvo]

My only complaint over the years, is we've not seen as much skilled big men. I feel the game was getting a little too perimeter oriented, but the play of the big man is coming back, to mesh with this new era, it's much better at a fan standpoint.

Remember the regular 70 point games we'd see at times? I don't miss that at all. The NBA needed to clean up some of that stuff and make it a little more offensive oriented.

Those early 2000s Heat-Knicks rock fights... ugh.

 

[Ohio]

Those early 2000s Heat-Knicks rock fights... ugh.

End of the NBA on NBC era

 

[billmac91]

My only complaint over the years, is we've not seen as much skilled big men. I feel the game was getting a little too perimeter oriented, but the play of the big man is coming back, to mesh with this new era, it's much better at a fan standpoint.

Remember the regular 70 point games we'd see at times? I don't miss that at all. The NBA needed to clean up some of that stuff and make it a little more offensive oriented.

I think it's legitimate to think the league has softened a shitload....I can see how that would turn some old-school people away. Hand in hand with the softness is a general lack of competiveness amongst the players which I contribute primarily to AAU ball and camps.

As you mentioned, the lack of skilled bigs is also a pretty big turn-off to some. I've heard some people complain every team plays damn near identical to one another and all that really matters is which team is making the 3 that night. Some truth to that although overly simplified.

I personally think if you combined today's skill and style with the competiveness of the 80's/90's you'd have the best product imaginable.

 

[cavsfever]

Is this the most pertinent argument you'll hear as to why LeBron is criticized so much?

View: https://twitter.com/theherd/status/844971048642629633

"Lebron has decided, why am I worrying about the regular season? You have decided that I'm not...look, if Lebron plays every game and averages 40 a night but loses in the Finals he's a bum. If he wins the Finals you won't even be able to tell me how many games he missed".

 

[czvo]

I think it's legitimate to think the league has softened a shitload....I can see how that would turn some old-school people away. Hand in hand with the softness is a general lack of competiveness amongst the players which I contribute primarily to AAU ball and camps.

As you mentioned, the lack of skilled bigs is also a pretty big turn-off to some. I've heard some people complain every team plays damn near identical to one another and all that really matters is which team is making the 3 that night. Some truth to that although overly simplified.

I personally think if you combined today's skill and style with the competiveness of the 80's/90's you'd have the best product imaginable.

How would you define competitive though? It seems the only thing that's changed is guys aren't allowed/won't throw punches anymore/refs have cracked down on flagrant fouls. I wouldn't say the league is any less competitive.

In the 80s and 90s, the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons, 76ers and Rockets won every title until the Spurs in 99. So basically five teams won a title in 20 years.

Since 2008 we've had 7 different teams win the title. I'd say the league is far more competitive.

 

[Cavatt]

What was his response to this?

Haha he was like "hmm" You know how it is talking to people who don't watch much bball.

 

[Cavatt]

My only complaint over the years, is we've not seen as much skilled big men. I feel the game was getting a little too perimeter oriented, but the play of the big man is coming back, to mesh with this new era, it's much better at a fan standpoint.

Remember the regular 70 point games we'd see at times? I don't miss that at all. The NBA needed to clean up some of that stuff and make it a little more offensive oriented.

I don't disgree with this. Those big guys are smaller and shoot now. It also has a lot to do with the 3 sec rule, and it shows what happens when you change the game for single freak like Shaq.

It is really hard for 7+ foot guys to move. So you have to move out of the paint every 3 seconds and guys don't even have the time to work in the post like they once did. I think if they changed the rules again, people would be parking massive dudes in there again and you would see something different.

You have to think that at some point there is physical limit on the size of guy that is both huge and athletic. Whether it is Embiid or those back fractures that Drummond had earlier in his career. They also say the enormous amount of minutes you have to play in AAU is especially tough on very young very big guys, who end up with a lot of injuries and never make it to the NBA. Supposedly your feet and knees get ruined when you play heavy minutes before you are done growing. Can you think of any other really skilled big guys that haven't lasted long? Oden and Bynum leap to mind.

 

[Cavatt]

How would you define competitive though? It seems the only thing that's changed is guys aren't allowed/won't throw punches anymore/refs have cracked down on flagrant fouls. I wouldn't say the league is any less competitive.

In the 80s and 90s, the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons, 76ers and Rockets won every title until the Spurs in 99. So basically five teams won a title in 20 years.

Since 2008 we've had 7 different teams win the title. I'd say the league is far more competitive.

At the very least the talent is distributed better.... maybe not if you count Warriors and Cavs lol

 

[billmac91]

How would you define competitive though? It seems the only thing that's changed is guys aren't allowed/won't throw punches anymore/refs have cracked down on flagrant fouls. I wouldn't say the league is any less competitive.

In the 80s and 90s, the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Pistons, 76ers and Rockets won every title until the Spurs in 99. So basically five teams won a title in 20 years.

Since 2008 we've had 7 different teams win the title. I'd say the league is far more competitive.

I'm not talking about league balance as much as I'm referring to an actual "I wanna beat your ass tonight".

Today's NBA is way too friendly among the players (and mostly the stars) and it's obvious. At least 10 years ago, and this is a Paul Pierce statement, you'd at least keep the "niceties" off the court and maybe meet up after a game for dinner. In today's game you actually have guys staying at each other's houses when in their town, and you can see the friendship on the court. There's just a lack of intensity to today's game because damn near all these guys have personal relationships.

It's also the new mindset that has led to some of the most ridiculous free agent moves we've ever seen. Let's be real.....Kevin Durant can't join the GSW's if it's 1997 instead of 2017. I mean, it just couldn't happen....he'd have been laughed out of every city in America for being the biggest vagina known to man.

It's a new day.....some people really dislike the "new day". To each their own....

 

[czvo]

I'm not talking about league balance as much as I'm referring to an actual "I wanna beat your ass tonight".

Today's NBA is way too friendly among the players (and mostly the stars) and it's obvious. At least 10 years ago, and this is a Paul Pierce statement, you'd at least keep the "niceties" off the court and maybe meet up after a game for dinner. In today's game you actually have guys staying at each other's houses when in their town, and you can see the friendship on the court. There's just a lack of intensity to today's game because damn near all these guys have personal relationships.

It's also the new mindset that has led to some of the most ridiculous free agent moves we've ever seen. Let's be real.....Kevin Durant can't join the GSW's if it's 1997 instead of 2017. I mean, it just couldn't happen....he'd have been laughed out of every city in America for being the biggest vagina known to man.

It's a new day.....some people really dislike the "new day". To each their own....

I don't disagree with any of this. I also don't think it's impacted the competitiveness in a negative way, nor do I really think it's this generation's fault that guys are more friendly outside the game.

 

[brownsbuck6]

Best argument I've heard yet is what I just heard from Cowherd.. or what he started to argue, anyway. LeBron isn't valued enough during the regular season. This season James Harden is the flavor of the month.. let him have it.

LeBron is measured against the current GOAT. He is playing for legacy. Not 2017 awards. He has no peer in the league. So fuck the regular season. His season begins here in a few weeks. And don't think his teammates don't know that. The Cavs just aren't a normal situation. It's frustrating for us to watch, but I trust they know what they are doing. It's all about titles. Period.

 

[The Red Viper]

Cowherd is a moron but he is bang on about LeBron. This face turn by him on LeBron has been very surprising as well. BTW, I don't agree with Cowherd's point that LeBron is a better ball-handler. LeBron is definitely a better passer but in terms of just handling the ball, Jordan was definitely better. Scoring, ball-handling and perimeter defense aside, LeBron is better than Jordan at every other aspect.

As a player, I think LeBron has a slight edge over Jordan but the aura and legacy of Jordan is what he is being judged ultimately for and when all is said and done, like with Roger Federer and Tom Brady this year, people will finally accept LeBron is the greatest when he is on the cusp of his retirement. Currently, I don't think LeBron is the greatest player to ever grace the game of basketball. But he is the best player ever imo just in terms of pure skill-set and impact wise.

And BTW, FIX YOUR FUCKING FTs LEBRON!!!!!!!

 

[MJTampa]

Sorry, but we're just going to have to disagree. A team failing to win isn't an indictment of a system. Especially when it comes to the playoffs. It almost comes down to talent and shot-making. Besides, just about every team, including the Cavs, have taken the basic tenants of D'Antoni's offense. High PnR, expert roller, surrounded by shooters, preferring a three point shot. To sit there and say his system doesn't work because he's never won a title, when so many teams do essentially the same thing, seems a little disingenuous. Which is why I come back to players and shot making.

By the way, you may believe the Cavs would have won with Kyrie, but that doesn't make it true. Same argument could be made last year re: Bogut and/or Draymond's suspension.

I'm all for being an objective fan, but some of you seem to go out of your way to be biased against the Cavs. I'm so sick of this Draymond crap. He missed one game, a game they lost by 15 at home to the Cavs. They also lost three other games that Draymond played in...one by 30, one by 20, and one at home in Game 7. So they were FAR from unbeatable when Draymond played. Meanwhile, Kyrie missed the ENTIRE series outside of Game 1, and he missed the OT of that game. And Love also missed the ENTIRE series. Nobody with any objectivity at all could possibly compare Draymond missing one game of a series to Kyrie AND Kevin both missing an entire series...give me a break.