Open Discussion (Cavs + related issues)

[Funkmastabuck]

So if Green starts, Nance won't start in the playoffs? Why announce anything?

 

[Stark]

Need Thompson's calf to flare up again, and soon. That's the only thing that can happen that'll save our season at this point. Can't rely on our coaches to do anything.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I do think he did a great job on Harden, and he did pretty well on Durant as well. Nance on Durant might work, but I don't think I like him guarding Durant shooting 3's. It is a tough call, and the margin for error means you need to figure it out game 1.

Nance would bother Durant when he gets touches at the Elbow, he would body him up and won't let him get to his spots. He would would challenge him at the rim much better than Green.

He has been a much better overall defender. in the 87th percentile on this putrid Cavs team. In the 94th Percentile defending Spot Ups(0.727 .PPP), in the 99th Percentile defending Runners(0.312 .PPP) and in the 67th Percentile defending at the rim(47%)

He is also in the 89th Percentile defending Jump shots in the half court(0.835 .PPP), In the 100th Percentile defending Catch and shoot guarded jumpers(0.333 .PPP) and in the 93th percentile defending catch and shoot unguarded jumpers(0.833 .PPP) and in the 99th Percentile defending 3pt shots only allowing 0.73 .PPP on 3pt shots!

Jeff Green otoh, is in the 46th Percentile as an overall defender and is worse than Nance defending every play type! Even defending play types that he should be good at he falls short such as Isolation (37th percentile)...and don't let me get started on his post defense.

So no, it's not going to be a problem as far as defending Durant's 3pt shots as Nance is far better at that. He is the perfect matchup against the Warriors. Would punish them on the boards and as a roll man(Draymond isn't good defending athletic Roll Man, usually switches against them) and he should matchup perfectly on the defensive end and terrorize them with his active hands in the passing lanes as GSW are prone to over pass and get careless with the ball.
Green doesn't generate steals and doesnt rebound the ball well. You need to limit GSW possessions and have more possessions than them in order to win since you are not going to shoot better then them, especially with Green on the floor.

 

[PedroFlu]

I wish I could find someone's post about how there is some sort of internal power struggle going on between coaches and players. This Wizards game made it crystal clear.

This doubling, switching and trapping defensive scheme has been met with incredible disdain by the players all season. And when you don't put effort to it, it becomes a real black hole. LeBron was very very upset about it, it showed the whole time.

This game absolutely looked like a message sent by the players. In the last 4 minutes, they got to stop switching and just stayed home; surprise surprise, the intensity level went crazy high and they started defending well, just by doing the basic stuff and switching when absolutely necessary.

Now I feel a glimmer of hope that this will stick. Also Drew said in an interview the last days that "the team needs to get on the same page on defense". I"m pretty sure he refers to the players refusing to give it all on Longabardi scheme.

Maybe this will finally be the time where players win and do the fucking basic stuff. This would be a HUGE improvement.. if Lue doesn't buy into it he should be smacked. Players must enforce this change right now.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

Why isn’t Nance starting next to Love this is baffling, they think Green can guard KD or some shit because he cant KD will destroy him without breaking a sweat, Green should not be a starter and he shouldn’t get many minutes Cedi is way better than him.

 

[Flight479]

I've accepted Green as a starter. I prefer Nance but that's not going to happen. Now, Nance shouldn't be sharing minutes with Tristan. That's exactly what Lue will try to do.

 

[cavsfever]

Didn't Lue just outright commit in public to starting Green in the playoffs?

Now watch him pick TT over Nance off the bench, or play them together (at least in his post-game press conference last night he indicated some doubt about that pairing).

 

[jvpertz]

As much as we all hate Green. He is still an annoying talent for the opposition to go up against when paired with Lebron.

You have to respect him in transition because he can really finish. He’s kind of a pain in the ass on the interior because he can switch on to smaller defenders and score.

And when he can hit his wide open 3 point shots, he’s absolutely a plus player for the Cavs.

Nance doesn’t have his handle. He doesn’t have any of Greens dribble drive game in transition.

But Nance is a better rebounder and defender for sure.

This isn’t an absolute Nance is better than green because within context there are certain skills that Green has that Nance just doesn’t have.

And if Green can shoot like he did last night, then starting him is the right move....

 

[Joe Henderson]

And if Green can shoot like he did last night, then starting him is the right move....

Well, we know he can't... But they probably like him for defensive purposes and the threat of his shooting. I doubt it will work, because he's the easy answer for teams deciding who to help off of. And heaven help the Cavs if he ends up consistently being the open man...

The biggest worry with him is always whether he can play with his limitations. Playing him with the starters might help keep him in check, but not if he keeps ending up with open shots.

If that ends up being a problem, maybe Korver, Cedi or can get another look? Or even Calderon?

 

[inliner311]

As much as we all hate Green. He is still an annoying talent for the opposition to go up against when paired with Lebron.

You have to respect him in transition because he can really finish. He’s kind of a pain in the ass on the interior because he can switch on to smaller defenders and score.

And when he can hit his wide open 3 point shots, he’s absolutely a plus player for the Cavs.

Nance doesn’t have his handle. He doesn’t have any of Greens dribble drive game in transition.

But Nance is a better rebounder and defender for sure.

This isn’t an absolute Nance is better than green because within context there are certain skills that Green has that Nance just doesn’t have.

And if Green can shoot like he did last night, then starting him is the right move....

I don't think it's a question of who is better but how you utilize each strengths to help the team. With Lue's inability to make in game adjustment and utilize anything more than hockey style rotations, we actually end up under utilizing both Green and Nance.

When we start Green with both LeBron and Love it takes away from Green being able to substitute in for either of those guys. They also have overlapping talent which result in Green not being able to use all the things he is good at. Basically Greens ball handling and post game get lost while he has to rely more on his 30% 3 point shooting.

With Nance playing the bulk of his minutes with the second unit, his opportunities for lobs and put backs drops because they start packing the paint. Also TT and him playing together is so bad for floor spacing.

I know Lue said he was going to have to pick between TT and Nance for minutes but I do think you need to keep both ready just in case. We have had alot of injuries to our bigs this year, you don't want TT to become complete out of shape if he doesn't get game minutes.

 

[inliner311]

Well, we know he can't... But they probably like him for defensive purposes and the threat of his shooting. I doubt it will work, because he's the easy answer for teams deciding who to help off of. And heaven help the Cavs if he ends up consistently being the open man...

The biggest worry with him is always whether he can play with his limitations. Playing him with the starters might help keep him in check, but not if he keeps ending up with open shots.

If that ends up being a problem, maybe Korver, Cedi or can get another look? Or even Calderon?

This is the problem with Lue's inability to make in game adjustments though. I don't have faith that Lue will see Green being the open man and missing 3s to then sub in Korver or Cedi.

Also I think Korver's ability to get open with the second unit becomes even harder without Green on the floor.

 

[LeShaq]

Hoping the playoff depth chart looks something like this:

GH..............JCL....................JCA
RH..............JR
LJ...............KK
JG..............CO......................TT
KL..............LN.......................az


I actually would like to see Calderon run the 2nd unit, but I think that will only happen if the offense really bogs down because Clarkson isn't passing. Also, LeBron can help run the 2nd unit if necessary. I do hope Calderon is kept ready, though.

Zizic is not going to play. I've just accepted that fact.

Then it comes down to Cedi or Tristan (unless Calderon plays more minutes, I guess; or you could just use a 9-man rotation and have LeBron play point with the 2nd unit). If Nance is playing with the second unit, there seems to be no spot for Tristan in that unit. As we saw in the Wizards game.

Cedi can defend and he is not afraid of the big moment. He fits better with Nance than Tristan does and he gives us another defender who can get out on the perimeter and annoy people. He will have to watch out for foul trouble, though.

I think Lue realizes what needs to happen, even if he doesn't want to say it out loud yet. But hopefully that is where we are headed.

Cedi has no weaknesses as a defender, it seems. Here are his defensive dashboard stats (higher negative number is better):
https://stats.nba.com/player/1626224/defense-dash/

Overall -----------> -3.8 (best on the Cavs)
3pt ---------------> -2.3
2pt ---------------> -3.0
Less than 6' ------> -3.6
Less than 10' -----> -1.0
More than 15' ----> -1.9

Additionally, Cedi is shooting 40.8% from three for the season.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Hoping the playoff depth chart looks something like this:

GH..............JCL....................JCA
RH..............JR
LJ...............KK
JG..............CO......................TT
KL..............LN.......................az


I actually would like to see Calderon run the 2nd unit, but I think that will only happen if the offense really bogs down because Clarkson isn't passing. Also, LeBron can help run the 2nd unit if necessary. I do hope Calderon is kept ready, though.

Zizic is not going to play. I've just accepted that fact.

Then it comes down to Cedi or Tristan (unless Calderon plays more minutes, I guess; or you could just use a 9-man rotation and have LeBron play point with the 2nd unit). If Nance is playing with the second unit, there really is no spot for Tristan in that unit. As we saw in the Wizards game.

Cedi can defend and he is not afraid of the big moment. He fits better with Nance than Tristan does and he gives us another defender who can get out on the perimeter and annoy people. He will have to watch out for foul trouble, though.

I think Lue realizes what needs to happen, even if he doesn't want to say it out loud yet. But hopefully that is where we are headed.

Cedi has no weaknesses as a defender, it seems. Here are his defensive dashboard stats (higher negative number is better):
https://stats.nba.com/player/1626224/defense-dash/

Overall -----------> -3.8 (best on the Cavs)
3pt ---------------> -2.3
2pt ---------------> -3.0
Less than 6' ------> -3.6
Less than 10' -----> -1.0
More than 15' ----> -1.9

Additionally, Cedi is shooting 40.8% from three for the season.

Just to add to Cedi's defensive numbers.

He is currently in the 96th Percentile as a PnR Ball Handler defender allowing only 0.557 .PPP on 61 possesions

In the 95th Percentile defending Catch and Shoot when Guarded Allowing 0.6 .PPP (Size and reach play a huge factor here)

In the 0 Percentile defending Catch and shoot when the shooter is unguarded allowing 1.7 .PPP (how the fuck? probably because of our stupid rotations/scheme and defensive miscues, but I would still like an explanation for that)

In the 72th percentile defending at the rim allowing only 46.7% (Only 32 possessions, probably a fluke...good positional defender though so that helps)

The biggest takeaway imo is his PnR defense at the point of attack. I think that's who he should be as a defender.

 

[LeShaq]

Just to add to Cedi's defensive numbers.

He is currently in the 96th Percentile as a PnR Ball Handler defender (61 Possessions allowing only 0.557 .PPP)

In the 95th Percentile defending Catch and Shoot when Guarded (Allowing 0.6 .PPP)

In the 0 Percentile defending Catch and shoot when the shooter is unguarded allowing 1.7 .PPP (how the fuck? probably because of our stupid rotations/scheme and defensive miscues, but I would still like an explanation for that)

In the 72th percentile defending at the rim allowing only 46.7% (Only 32 possessions, probably a fluke...good positional defender though so that helps)

The biggest takeaway imo is his PnR defense at the point of attack. I think that's who he should be as a defender.

Great stats, thanks.

Against a wing-heavy team like the Warriors or Rockets, I think Cedi could help a lot. More than Tristan could.

Someone said that Lue mentioned last night about choosing playoff minutes between Nance and Thompson. Hopefully he knows what needs to be done.

 

[LeShaq]

This is fantastic news if it's true.

View: https://twitter.com/Pchopz_/status/982245659175600129?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcavaliersnation.com%2F2018%2F04%2F06%2Freport-j-r-smith-and-tristan-thompson-likely-out-of-playoff-rotation%2F


View: https://twitter.com/Pchopz_/status/982248137623392256



If this is the case, then depth chart might be something like this. I'm assuming Hood keeps starting and Korver remains on the bench:

GH..............JCa
RH..............JCl..................JR?
LJ...............KK
JG..............CO?................(tt)
KL...............LN.................(az)


This would solve a bunch of problems.

----> Let Hood keep starting to get confidence and play with LeBron
----> Korver "ok" not playing with LeBron so long as Calderon plays PG with the 2nd unit
----> Move Clarkson to shooting guard and don't rely on him as a passer
----> Remove Tristan from the playoff rotation
----> Put Cedi in the rotation (I'm assuming this is part of the plan, but maybe not)

It's possible the Cedi is not part of the plans here. In that instance, I guess LeBron possibly plays PF/PG with the 2nd Unit and you just use 9 men (10 if you think JR can help you on that night).

I think JR still has some good games in him. But not relying on him seems like a good bet, because you don't know if he will have it on a given night.

This also would lead me to believe that both JR and TT might be on the way out this summer. Certainly hope that is the case, especially with Tristan.

I like Tristan, but if his leg does not come around (he says he may never be the same after the calf injury) then there is no reason to keep him on the roster. And certainly not in the rotation.