Racial Tension in the U.S.

[-Akronite-]

OR Things aren't equal between heights in this country. If two people grew up on the same street with the same income but one is tall and one is short, they are still going to have different perspectives on life in this country because height is a factor. #tallpriviledge

The real solution is to teach people that we all have biased perception, a notion that Immanuel Kant (Critique of Pure Reason (Kritik der reinen Vernunft, 1781),


We have to accept this about ourselves and actively work to push through our biases and make humane decisions.

If you are looking at the world through your own particular lens (and why would you do otherwise) You are limited to seeing the world in only one way, and hence solutions only one way. Break the mirrors and you can be free.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimihendri294475.html

I don't feel like anything I've said contradicts that. Nobody is saying race is the only factor. But I also think you should probably not compare the way this country has treated differences in height to race, because... Well, I think it's pretty obvious.

I'd say in this political climate, it's silly to assume everyone is complicit in their vote. It's just another way of attacking the person and not the message, IMO. And that applies both ways. We have so little control over what they do, and come election time, we're trying to find folks who represent us and vote along those lines. Do you REALLY think Hillary and Trump was a good representation of our nation? No, most everyone I knew was disgusted w/ their choices. But you gotta pick! So you vote party lines if that's your thing. Personally, I voted Johnson and "threw my vote way".

This is fair. I will say that I think to some extent voters should answer for their candidate though. I'm sure Hillary would've had her fair share of fuckups and scandals and it's not as if her supporters would or should be let off the hook for that. I will admit it's fucking tougher when we only get two goddamn options.

They're saying it's not about race, IMO, because as a white person, I feel I have an obligation to over qualify what I say so that someone won't take offense (to which someone naturally takes offense). They're trying to set the tone so someone won't just be like, "hrmm, these some racist mother fuckers", to which you've heard it and declared, "hrmm, these some racist mother fuckers", proving qualifying statements and PC are worthless because white people are racist when they have an opinion. I digress.

Yes, white people, myself included, feel like we have to walk on egg shells. I do think that the outrage culture goes too far a lot of the time. I also think dialogue is important. And while a lot of people are worried about censorship from the PC left, I feel like there isn't a lot of listening going on when people voice concerns. They just make assumptions that it's some silly nonsense. Trigger warning? You're a stupid snowflake!

They're afraid the PROBLEMS that the other school suffers from will seep in. Why wouldn't they be? The failing school is proof that whatever protocols are in place at a state educational level are inadequate to address the issues.

That's why bringing struggling kids from a worse school into a successful school makes sense.

Diluting the populace doesn't fix it, it just raises the mean test scores.

"Diluting the populace..."

...

The real issue w/ these schools aren't the children. It's not the teachers. It's the parents. It's the homefront, and sadly, no matter what school these kids go to, the problem is they go home at the end of the day. If Mom and Dad aren't there, or aren't supportive, that child will suffer in ways school can't fix. I don't want to preach about the value of family units, that's another thread.

Yeah, that's a debate for another thread. Home life is absolutely important though, I do not disagree.

I get it, it's an inspiring story. It's still racist though.

I'd argue that the racism is not equivalent. And that's a big issue with debating this here. I keep seeing this argument that "anyone can be racist" as if that has any relevance to the real problems that have gone on and continue to go on in this country.

Don't get me wrong, when McCain lost (I voted for him) my first hope was for stronger racial relations. Appreciated the "first" nature of it all and hoped in 4 years we'd have better luck (we didn't). I unfortunately saw over the next 8 years, what feels like a decline.

The way I've seen it, race relations have heated up but I'm not sure that things have really gotten much worse. I think because we had a black president, people were emboldened to talk more about race and bring issues to light that had laid dormant for a while. It's led to some blowups, but like a lot of issues today, it isn't getting worse as much as it's getting more exposure. I wouldn't argue that we've made great progress or solved anything, but it's a tough issue to move toward resolution.

It's like the Trump campaign lady in Ohio that said she didn't think there was any racism before Obama. Black people knew the whole time it was still a big problem, but now everyone knows.

You're really hung up on the Birther thing. It was stupid politics and personally, I've said as much the whole time. Didn't Trump finally even denounce it during his running?

Sort of. He acted as if he came to this conclusion and did Obama a favor by bringing it up. No apology for the witch hunt, just another fake win. His denouncement was almost as offensive as the movement.

And yes, I am hung up on it, like Donald was for pretty much all of Obama's two terms.

"Oh my gosh, they claimed he's a Muslim because he's black, that's racist!"

Maybe partly because he's black, but if it were on a pie chart, I'm pretty sure it'd mostly be, the "Barack Hussein Obama" name that might have made them look that way.

If we ever have a guy named Hitler run for office, feel free to check his ancestry page, I won't fault you.

I don't see these as good assumptions to make. I also don't think this makes it less racist. But whatever.

People said ugly shit about Michelle, yup. Racist shit even. What's the relevance of this, though? People say ugly shit about Melania too. I've seen awful memes of her, of oh, what's the kids name. The one who seems to have inherited the hair. Anyways, him, I've seen awful crap on him. People are assholes man. Go on the internet and you'll find even more assholes than you thought there were. It's never OK, IMO, to bring in folks family into it. They're always just cheap personal attacks.

On that, I see this embraced and supported by Hollywood. I think it's sad. "No, it's just satire, we're just entertainment!" Nah, I feel like it's more a ratings driven race to the bottom of humanity. SNL sucked for the last 8 years because they had no nuts to make fun of that administration (they'd be called racist). Now they suck because their lack of objectivity just dwarfs anything they're trying to do, as an example.

Not on board with the SNL/satire statements because I don't know what you mean there, but the rest I understand and agree with in principle.

 

[Jack Brickman]

SNL sucked for the last 8 years because they had no nuts to make fun of that administration (they'd be called racist). Now they suck because their lack of objectivity just dwarfs anything they're trying to do, as an example.

1. SNL has sucked for far longer than eight years.

2. No one would call them racist for making fun of Obama (provided they weren't actually being racist, obviously). Jon Stewart made fun of Obama and his administration constantly while he was still on The Daily Show. Colbert did as well on his own CC show, and John Oliver did some of it as well on his HBO show. I don't recall any of them being called racist for it.

 

[Tornicade]

Forced busing didnt work. Nor did the quality of education improve.
it did cost alot more money and busing inner city kids out to the subarbs and suburban schools arent gonna happen.
Any boost of the overal quality education in large school districts has been had.
Online schooling with a focus on on site Elementary school education would go a long way in cutting education cost and providing equal education THis kind of system would also help low income rural areas that suffer the same education funding issues as the urban schools

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

That's why bringing struggling kids from a worse school into a successful school makes sense.

From their perspective, sure. But from the perspective of a kid/parents who is not struggling in a successful school, why should they support sending that kid to an unsuccessful school? What's the argument you're going to make to them?

To be bluntly honest, while you can trace most of this back to parenting, the parents aren't the ones actually in the schools behaving badly. That's on the kids behaving badly themselves. So why should a kid (and his parents) want to send him to a school with kids who have, by their own behavior, made theirs a worse place to learn?

The other issue -- and it is a biggie -- are the long-term consequences of school busing. In many cases, it is going to lead to "white flight" -- or more accurately, affluent/educated parent flight - as a rational response to an effort to send their children from good schools to poorer ones, based on their race.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

1
2. No one would call them racist for making fun of Obama (provided they weren't actually being racist, obviously).

There were plenty of times that people were accused of being racist for criticizing Obama, even when the criticism had no racial content at all. Essentially, the reasoning was some variant on nobody would ever show such a lack of respect to a white president, or that they only reason they were criticizing him at all was because he was black. Heck, opposition to his policies was blamed on racism.

 

[-Akronite-]

From their perspective, sure. But from the perspective of a kid/parents who is not struggling in a successful school, why should they support sending that kid to an unsuccessful school? What's the argument you're going to make to them?

Is somebody proposing this? Is there an initiative to force white parents to send their kids to failing schools? I've only seen the opposite, where barriers are put up to prevent disadvantage students from coming to better schools.

 

[Tornicade]

I don't see how someone could quote Malcom X and not be outraged about Ferguson blacks doing anything to establish themselves in running their community

Is somebody proposing this? Is there an initiative to force white parents to send their kids to failing schools? I've only seen the opposite, where barriers are put up to prevent disadvantage students from coming to better schools.

Goto Martin county in Kentucky.. Enroll your kids there at Sheldon Clark high school... enjoy the quality of education there and be sure not to drink the water

Schools in Ohio had forced busing for other 30 years. City schools still suck. period. That's why people moved to suburbs and pay taxes

do you really think Kids sitting ona bus for 3 hours a day helps their education?

 

[-Akronite-]

I don't see how someone could quote Malcom X and not be outraged about Ferguson blacks doing anything to establish themselves in running their community

Goto Martin county in Kentucky.. Enroll your kids there at Sheldon Clark high school... enjoy the quality of education there and be sure not to drink the water

Schools in Ohio had forced busing for other 30 years. City schools still suck. period. That's why people moved to suburbs and pay taxes

do you really think Kids sitting ona bus for 3 hours a day helps their education?

Curious on your thoughts on this article (<----CLICK THERE) are? There are solutions beyond simply busing and the numbers seem to indicate that segregation DOES lead to a larger gap between white and black students. So while I don't like the idea of forcing kids to switch from the school that works for them to a worse one, I do think we need to do more to make sure those at the bottom can get a better education.

And what solution is being proposed if we are so against this? I see complaints but no suggestions.

 

[Tornicade]

which article?
When I was in Columbus schools .as a student. It didn't matter what side of town you were on. all the schools were crap. There was 4-6 alternative schools set up that kid got selected for in a "lottery" one of them was Berwick alternative and I had the good fortune to go there in the 3rd grade instead of beck st school. My teacher was black. there was black and white students and it hada nice student to teacher ration.

We then moved to Hilliard school which I didn't feel behind at all. Of course this was in the early stages of what Hilliard would become

High revenue schools already have funds distributed amongst lower revenue schools.

In Columbus for example. sending a bunch of white kids from the south side to east high school isn't gonna magically make East high school a better school.

The differences between City Schools in white and black neighborhoods has shrunk significantly but you still have the same a problem.

A 40 thousand dollar house on Livingston avenue isn't gonna generate the same per student revenue as a 300k house in New Albany or Pickerington.

quite frankly if people in the suburbs which are now congested towns in their own right started having to bus their children to the inner cities (if it was ligstically reasonable) You would see those people move farther away from the cities as opposed to paying high property taxes and having to send their children to schools in high crime areas.

The education system isn't built on 20+ students a class. The higher the class road the harder it is to reach children as individuals and determine what works for the child.

There is also another major issue with the current school systems in general and that is the testing requirements actually limit schools and teachers as they are transformed from a place of learning to a place of memorization.

The entire education system is in need of reform. Including secondary education as well as vocational schools.

Lets identify the issues
- Teacher don't want to live in poor rural or poor urban areas to teach. they also take a financial loss
-Overcrowding. in Urban Schools.. School districts do not have the operating income to maintain a reasonable student to teacher ratio.

Guys like @King Stannis and @gourimoko probably are way more familiar with alternative learning but its time that the schools are converted to learning/community centers and kids are provided with tablets and interactive learning.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/21824/5-alternative-teaching-methods

Montessori seems very adaptable to technology and allows Teachers to oversee the development of larger classes individually.

Harkness works best with a lower teacher to student rationa nd would not be practical for the public school system

Sudbury has an interesting style of learning and accountability but I don't think it would work on a mass scale.


the current school sysem doesn't teach kids how to learn and think for themselves. It basically forces them to memorize and recite what the government wants them to learn




Until we scrap the current education system I don't think there is a viable workaround of the socioeconomic realities of teaching kids in poor urban areas and keep them interested in learning.

 

[Sebastian]

which article?
When I was in Columbus schools .as a student. It didn't matter what side of town you were on. all the schools were crap. There was 4-6 alternative schools set up that kid got selected for in a "lottery" one of them was Berwick alternative and I had the good fortune to go there in the 3rd grade instead of beck st school. My teacher was black. there was black and white students and it hada nice student to teacher ration.

We then moved to Hilliard school which I didn't feel behind at all. Of course this was in the early stages of what Hilliard would become

High revenue schools already have funds distributed amongst lower revenue schools.

In Columbus for example. sending a bunch of white kids from the south side to east high school isn't gonna magically make East high school a better school.

The differences between City Schools in white and black neighborhoods has shrunk significantly but you still have the same a problem.

A 40 thousand dollar house on Livingston avenue isn't gonna generate the same per student revenue as a 300k house in New Albany or Pickerington.

quite frankly if people in the suburbs which are now congested towns in their own right started having to bus their children to the inner cities (if it was ligstically reasonable) You would see those people move farther away from the cities as opposed to paying high property taxes and having to send their children to schools in high crime areas.

The education system isn't built on 20+ students a class. The higher the class road the harder it is to reach children as individuals and determine what works for the child.

There is also another major issue with the current school systems in general and that is the testing requirements actually limit schools and teachers as they are transformed from a place of learning to a place of memorization.

The entire education system is in need of reform. Including secondary education as well as vocational schools.

Lets identify the issues
- Teacher don't want to live in poor rural or poor urban areas to teach. they also take a financial loss
-Overcrowding. in Urban Schools.. School districts do not have the operating income to maintain a reasonable student to teacher ratio.

Guys like @King Stannis and @gourimoko probably are way more familiar with alternative learning but its time that the schools are converted to learning/community centers and kids are provided with tablets and interactive learning.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/21824/5-alternative-teaching-methods

Montessori seems very adaptable to technology and allows Teachers to oversee the development of larger classes individually.

Harkness works best with a lower teacher to student rationa nd would not be practical for the public school system

Sudbury has an interesting style of learning and accountability but I don't think it would work on a mass scale.


the current school sysem doesn't teach kids how to learn and think for themselves. It basically forces them to memorize and recite what the government wants them to learn




Until we scrap the current education system I don't think there is a viable workaround of the socioeconomic realities of teaching kids in poor urban areas and keep them interested in learning.

Yeah, I am not very familiar with education below the undergraduate level.

If I had my druthers I would send my kids to private school because I don't like the idea of teaching to the lowest common denominator. Without being an expert I'd say looking to Northern Europe as a model may not be a bad idea.

Moreover, those examples may support the notion that getting rid of the national Department of Education is stupid because states can't be trusted to do things correctly and education is a strategic, national concern because our population is our greatest natural resource.

 

[Wrathe]

"Diluting the populace..."

First, thanks for not assuming the worst. The populace in this case was the school of successful students. The theory of diluting them w/ unsuccessful students and that it will somehow improve them is a falsity, IMO. The issues are rarely the child. That's all.

I'd argue that the racism is not equivalent. And that's a big issue with debating this here. I keep seeing this argument that "anyone can be racist" as if that has any relevance to the real problems that have gone on and continue to go on in this country.

This is that trying to fix equality w/ inequality thing I was talking about. It's wrong, period. It's wrong for Whites to be racist, it's wrong for Blacks to be racists. There should be no excuses. That's equality.

I don't see these as good assumptions to make. I also don't think this makes it less racist. But whatever.

Dude, if you saw the name "Barack Hussein Obama" written on paper and you had no knowledge of him, you wouldn't think to yourself, "Hrmm, Muslim obviously"? I wouldn't think color, who knows where he's from, or what race he is. I just think. "Muslim." That's not a good assumption? Like, when I see someone named Billy Bob Thornton I assume that he came from the South (Arkansas, I'll save you the Google)? Come on, man. There's nothing racist in that.

 

[Wrathe]

Curious on your thoughts on this article (<----CLICK THERE) are? There are solutions beyond simply busing and the numbers seem to indicate that segregation DOES lead to a larger gap between white and black students. So while I don't like the idea of forcing kids to switch from the school that works for them to a worse one, I do think we need to do more to make sure those at the bottom can get a better education.

And what solution is being proposed if we are so against this? I see complaints but no suggestions.

Get to basics. Learning is about teachers and students.
Do teachers want to work in these schools? If not, why?
Do students want to perform the work? If not, why?

My understanding is, we had significant issues w/ those foundational questions.

 

[-Akronite-]

First, thanks for not assuming the worst. The populace in this case was the school of successful students. The theory of diluting them w/ unsuccessful students and that it will somehow improve them is a falsity, IMO. The issues are rarely the child. That's all.

I singled out that quote to show why it's so easy for people to the conclusion that your motivation is racist. I mean, you're saying it's diluting to send a bad student to a good school. But you're also saying (not literally) that it's diluting to let a black student go to a white school, because that's what's happening. Yes, you can clarify that you are just trying to refer to students in a struggling school versus a thriving one, but you're using the same language that a racist would.

In the previously linked story, the black school lost certification (or whatever it's called) and there was push back from taking in these kids to the better school, EVEN the good students, because of their views on the nature of those students. They lowered standards to re-certify the school and send students back. Does that really seem like a solution?

I understand being concerned for maintaining the strength of a good school, but the responses I've seen seem to lack compassion for the students who may be stuck in a shitty situation.

This is that trying to fix equality w/ inequality thing I was talking about. It's wrong, period. It's wrong for Whites to be racist, it's wrong for Blacks to be racists. There should be no excuses. That's equality.

HOW though? I'm saying that racism is a spectrum, it's not a simple black and white issue. There is a difference between a white guy calling a black guy and N***** and a vice versa with cracker. Yes, they are both wrong. But yes, one is worse because it carries the context of centuries of oppression. We can recognize that all racism is wrong while also living in the real world and understanding why one is a bigger, deeper issue.

Dude, if you saw the name "Barack Hussein Obama" written on paper and you had no knowledge of him, you wouldn't think to yourself, "Hrmm, Muslim obviously"? I wouldn't think color, who knows where he's from, or what race he is. I just think. "Muslim." That's not a good assumption? Like, when I see someone named Billy Bob Thornton I assume that he came from the South (Arkansas, I'll save you the Google)? Come on, man. There's nothing racist in that.

Hmmm, but what about if that guy publicly states that he's a Christian?

If you gave me the name straight up without any context, sure my assumptions would go in the same direction. But people let his name and his skin color paint who he was MORE than his words or actions. There is inherent racism in birtherism and these Obama Muslim conspiracy theories.

 

[Tornicade]

I singled out that quote to show why it's so easy for people to the conclusion that your motivation is racist. I mean, you're saying it's diluting to send a bad student to a good school. But you're also saying (not literally) that it's diluting to let a black student go to a white school, because that's what's happening. Yes, you can clarify that you are just trying to refer to students in a struggling school versus a thriving one, but you're using the same language that a racist would.

In the previously linked story, the black school lost certification (or whatever it's called) and there was push back from taking in these kids to the better school, EVEN the good students, because of their views on the nature of those students. They lowered standards to re-certify the school and send students back. Does that really seem like a solution?

I understand being concerned for maintaining the strength of a good school, but the responses I've seen seem to lack compassion for the students who may be stuck in a shitty situation.



HOW though? I'm saying that racism is a spectrum, it's not a simple black and white issue. There is a difference between a white guy calling a black guy and N***** and a vice versa with cracker. Yes, they are both wrong. But yes, one is worse because it carries the context of centuries of oppression. We can recognize that all racism is wrong while also living in the real world and understanding why one is a bigger, deeper issue.



Hmmm, but what about if that guy publicly states that he's a Christian?

If you gave me the name straight up without any context, sure my assumptions would go in the same direction. But people let his name and his skin color paint who he was MORE than his words or actions. There is inherent racism in birtherism and these Obama Muslim conspiracy theories.

didn't see the hyperlink before. so now that I read the article.
About Westside Academy and Wellwood Middle School

This information your posting doesn't reference the school losing certification or the 400 kids being sent to Wellwood Middle School,

What I do see is that the high school in Fayetteville is in a different school district and is 13 miles away. that's an additional 20 minutes to drive there after what most likely be 30-45 minutes to gather all the kids up from their neighborhood.

The Syracuse district over all has 24% whites. What I did see was multiple high schools much closer with a ratio of about 10-14 kids per student including white majority schools that would of been more practical in the scenario of a school closing.

What about the Frazer Middle school just down the street from Westside Academy. it has 90% people getting paid lunches with 27% percent white. 35% black, 24% Asian and 11% Hispanic.

They also are testing poor on English proficiency.

It seems the Syracuse district has a lot of students whose 2nd language is English or have no English at home.

This school district is having issues with that as a whole.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Is somebody proposing this?

If you're talking about sending large number of kids from one school to the other for a given year, then it's inevitable. That's how it has traditionally ben done.

Is there an initiative to force white parents to send their kids to failing schools? I've only seen the opposite, where barriers are put up to prevent disadvantage students from coming to better schools.

Busing is generally as I have described above. What "barriers" are "put up"? You live in a district, you go to the school. Right?

I know you've mentioned St. Louis -- we spent days on that one case in law school. That was a unique desegregation case, both because the order pulled in county schools (the order would not pass muster today) and because of how they actually did it. I don't want to get into the whole thing in detail, but what they essentially did was let some kids from the city (black) go to county schools (white). To address the resultant overflow at the county schools, they opened up very high quality magnet schools to pull out enough white kids. The net effect on the students who participated was positive, though modest.

But there were a lot of black families who opposed it. One reason is the whole issue of self-selection. Let's say you allow black kids to participate in that if their parents so choose. Which kids' parents are going to be more likely to make that choice? The more active, involved black parents. So to some extent, what you get are generally above-average black students electing to go to white suburban schools, meaning the kids left behind, which some families felt made those inner city schools worse.

Now personally, I'm fine with giving parents a choice as to where to send their children because I don't think you should hold back some kids just because it might worsen the environment for others. But the point is that overall, it doesn't solve the problem you identify of trying to help the black city kids as a whole.

But hey, I support school choice, including charter schools and vouchers, as a means of improving educational opportunities. Where we differ is that you want to do it based on race. I don't understand the justification for saying that poor white/Hispanic kids attending those crummy schools shouldn't be able to participate as well in the name of trying to achieve racial balance. Because that's what you're inevitably doing if your focus is on achieve racial balance in those schools.