Racial Tension in the U.S.

[KI4MVP]

The problem with faking incidents is whe you are caught is leaves people wondering what else was faked. Especially when you are still considered a hero by the movement after being caught faking. The fake incident generated so much publicity before it was proven to be faked that I don't even know what the real issues were at that university.

I am a person 100% opposed to any form of racism and have been my entire life. I grew up in a family where my father and uncle risked their levels to fight racism at a time when people were being killed for doing that. At the same time I am also against faking incidents or claiming racism where it doesn't exist. I'm not saying BLM is an example of this but over the years We've all seen the race card used where it doesn't apply.

I never said resisting arrest was a capital offense, I said it is against the law in itself largely because it escalates the danger level.

 

[gourimoko]

The problem with faking incidents is whe you are caught is leaves people wondering what else was faked. Especially when you are still considered a hero by the movement after being caught faking. The fake incident generated so much publicity before it was proven to be faked that I don't even know what the real issues were at that university.

The issues weren't Butler being hit by the car. It seems so much of your argument is predicated on this, that it's overlooking the larger argument being made by the protesters there.

They aren't protesting for the sake of it, right? So what are their issues?

I am a person 100% opposed to any form of racism and have been my entire life. I grew up in a family where my father and uncle risked their levels to fight racism at a time when people were being killed for doing that.

Of that I have no doubt.

t the same time I am also against faking incidents or claiming racism where it doesn't exist.

Agreed 100%.

I'm not saying BLM is an example of this but over the years We've all seen the race card used where it doesn't apply.

What's "the race card?" That's an interesting comment in and of itself.

"Playing the race card..." What does that really mean?

I never said resisting arrest was a capital offense, I said it is against the law in itself largely because it escalates the danger level.

It does escalate the level of danger, but in no way should or does resistance justify/warrant an escalation to brutality and murder. I think that's the larger point.

There's a thread about police brutality that starts off with several incidents of White assailants being brutalized by police officers. It doesn't matter if you're White/Black whatever; offending a cop's sensibilities can land you in the hospital.

Simply saying, well, that could have been avoided if the assailant didn't run/resist doesn't speak to the problem of brutality.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I know he has bigger things to deal with right now, like a potential World War 3, but this is probably a good opportunity for Obama to bring people together.

There are plenty of ordinary people desperately trying to do that. A couple of videos that went viral are attempts to focus on the good in other people.

http://khon2.com/2015/04/11/south-c...ter-with-white-police-officer-in-viral-video/

http://wnep.com/2015/10/29/mans-facebook-post-about-traffic-stop-goes-viral/

Problem is that there is an entire mindset that doesn't want that. They want confrontation and mutual mistrust.

The whole thing confuses me too.

I've always been a person who interacts with people based on the content of their character and nothing else. I think it should be this way for every interaction including those in the judicial / legal system.

After being asked my personal and explaining this personal stance to someone who is really supportive of BLM I was told recently that I was racist for having this view (blew my mind tbh). They told me i was racist for this view because it is an example of white privilege.

The whole "privilege" bullshit is simply a wedge for incivility, stifling of discussion, bullying, and judging people based on their race. It sounds so innocuous "acknowledge that being Black has disadvantages" but the way it is used is pernicious as hell.

The person didn't give me any example or explanation as to how it qualified as such but it just did. It struck me as ironic considering who submitted this idea as the most logical and fair way to interact with people.

They're just exercising their privilege to be a condescending asshole.

 

[gourimoko]

There are plenty of ordinary people desperately trying to do that. A couple of videos that went viral are attempts to focus on the good in other people.

Yes, but you fail to see those "ordinary people" in the crowds of Black protesters.

http://khon2.com/2015/04/11/south-carolina-black-man-shares-encounter-with-white-police-officer-in-viral-video/

The narrative of the person who made the video hasn't really much to do with the problem. He's simply saying that we shouldn't stereotype all cops, just as all cops shouldn't stereotype all Blacks.

But what has that got to do with solving the problems of police brutality, racial profiling, and injustices committed by police departments around the country?

This video/story doesn't actually fit your argument that this is someone doing something constructive to solve the problem.

http://wnep.com/2015/10/29/mans-facebook-post-about-traffic-stop-goes-viral/

This guy, however, is an uncle tom. He speaks against equality movements for Black people. He has identity issues.

Problem is that there is an entire mindset that doesn't want that. They want confrontation and mutual mistrust.

The problem is that many of us aren't willing to acknowledge the genuine concerns and grievances of the damaged party; the Black protester. Your examples only speak to the side of the police. How is that fair and objective?

The whole "privilege" bullshit is simply a wedge for incivility, stifling of discussion, bullying, and judging people based on their race. It sounds so innocuous "acknowledge that being Black has disadvantages" but the way it is used is pernicious as hell.

Q-Tip, you're not a stupid guy, so I know when you say this you are actually aware of White privilege. You know what it is, and what is meant by the phrase. My problem is that you simply reject the concept out of hand, without even evaluating whether or not it exists simply because you prefer one outcome over another.

That's the problem with these kinds of conversations. Some folks just aren't even willing to recognize reality in front of them, because they aren't prepared to deal with it.

To say White privilege doesn't exist either demonstrates ignorance (which is totally okay), or deceit (which isn't).

I don't expect 90% of people (White or Black) to understand the concept of privilege (which isn't exclusive to Whites), and the arguments as to why it's a problem in society; it's a nuanced argument indeed.

Hence, most people would simply be ignorant of the topic, and again, that's okay. But to have these conversations, on any level of depth beyond the surface of the issues, it's something that needs to be addressed to some degree.

 

[KI4MVP]

The issues weren't Butler being hit by the car. It seems so much of your argument is predicated on this, that it's overlooking the larger argument being made by the protesters there.

But that's what got all of the attention. Butler claiming he was hit by a car and his subsequent hunger strike over that "incident". It's problematic that only after the president resigned did anyone find out the car thing was faked. And I suspect most people still think he was in fact struck by a car because the fact that it was faked didn't get nearly as much attention as everything else. I would never have known myself if someone didn't post the video on the board.

What's "the race card?" That's an interesting comment in and of itself.

Now you're getting stuck in semantics. I'm talking about people claiming racism when it doesn't exist. Just take a examples from basketball of SAS's claiming racism over the number of black NBA head coaches, I think when Mark Jackson was fired.

Also the example of what happened to Danny Ferry.

 

[Kouki]

I would like to make more of a post later, but just wanted to point out that one of the other points of the Mizzou protest was also fallacious - the grad students losing healthcare due to the university.

So two of the significant protesting points for Butler going on a hunger strike were lies, and they cost people to lose their jobs...

 

[gourimoko]

But that's what got all of the attention. Butler claiming he was hit by a car and his subsequent hunger strike over that "incident". It's problematic that only after the president resigned did anyone find out the car thing was faked. And I suspect most people still think he was in fact struck by a car because the fact that it was faked didn't get nearly as much attention as everything else. I would never have known myself if someone didn't post the video on the board.

Attention? I'm asking you are the grievances of the students at the University real and worth consideration? I'm not talking about the media.

Now you're getting stuck in semantics.

Am I? You understand that the term "playing the race card" is often used to instantly discredit claims of racial discrimination, right?

Don't take my word for it:

"But now, back to that detestable phrase, “playing the race card.”

I have a particular revulsion for this phrase because of all that it implies: that people often invoke race as a cynical ploy to curry favor, or sympathy, and to cast aspersions on the character of others.

Maybe there are some people who do this, but I have never known a single person to admit to it or be proven to have done it.

Sure, living in a society still replete with racial bias can make one hypersensitive, to the point of seeing it even when it isn’t there. But this to me isn’t evidence of malicious intent, but rather the manifestation of chronic injury.

Furthermore, there are surely still people like the ones Booker T. Washington described:

“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

But those who can realize a profit pale in comparison to the vast majorities of regular people trying to get by. To confuse the two is a deliberate deception.

It is one thing to debate the presence of racial motive in a circumstance, but it is quite another to suggest that people who suspect a racial component are exploiting some mythological, vaunted position and prerogative of aggrieved groups or exerting the exclusionary authority of the dominant group.

And furthermore, what other forms of discrimination are so routinely diminished and delegitimized in this way — cast as a game, a tactic or a stratagem?

The truth is that the people who accuse others — without a shred of evidence — of “playing the race card,” claiming that the accusations of racism are so exaggerated as to dull the meaning of the term, are themselves playing a card. It is a privileged attempt at dismissal.

They seek to do the very thing they condemn: shut down the debate with a scalding-hot charge."

I'm talking about people claiming racism when it doesn't exist.

I think it helps to say that specifically though, KI..

To me it seems you are loosely connecting this "playing of a race card," which means, according to you, someone essentially "crying wolf," or making "false claims," and also associating that with the Missouri situation.

If I take that to it's natural conclusion, it means you disbelieve there is a racial problem there and the students weren't in the right to protest? Am I misunderstanding you?

Just take a examples from basketball of SAS's claiming racism over the number of black NBA head coaches, I think when Mark Jackson was fired.

Hmm.. I'm not sure what you mean to say here. What about this is an example of SAS "playing the race card?" Arguing there is a racial component to much of this?

Should we talk about that, or is that question meant rhetorically? I'm not sure if I would agree with you more in this instance than I do with Smith. I think, to an extent, SAS is right, just as he would be if talking about the NFL.

Also the example of what happened to Danny Ferry.

Danny Ferry's comments were indeed racist. I'm not sure I understand how they could be construed otherwise.

Honestly bro, I'm not even sure where this conversation is going.. I'm not sure how these instances are examples to a point that you're making?

That's the funny thing about conversations on race; we can see the issue from two completely different angles that seem to exist on entirely different planes of reality.

No one is right or wrong necessarily, but it is fun to read others' views. I respect your opinion nonetheless, and I'm curious to know more about why you feel the way you do about this topic.

 

[KI4MVP]

1 - I would like to know what the real issues were at the university and who was responsible.

2 - I didn't at all mean it how you took it, it was shorter to type it that way on my iPad, I'll type it the longer way in the future.

3 - SAS isn't right at all. He wants NBA coaches to have the same percentage of blacks as NBA players when there is no justification at all for those percentages to be related since many of the coaches either never played in the league or played in the league at a time when the percentages were different than they are today. He also skewed his own argument by not including biracial Jason Kidd in the number of black coaches while simultaneously including biracial players the percentage of black players.

4 - Only those weren't Ferry's words, he read what a scout wrote and his own words disagreed with what the scout wrote. An independent investigation completely cleared of any wrongdoing and he still lost his job. He got fired for what someone else wrote.

 

[gourimoko]

1 - I would like to know what the real issues were at the university and who was responsible.

Indeed, and I think that's important to know. I think Butler's degree of honest is not relevant to that story though. There were many issues, and not just with Black students but with many of the Jewish students on campus as well.

2 - I didn't at all mean it how you took it, it was shorter to type it that way on my iPad, I'll type it the longer way in the future.

I know you didn't mean it with any degree of disrespect or dismissal.

That's the thing.. It's not intended that way, but in reality, that's what "playing the race card" ultimately boils down to. It's a catch-all dismissal that's often used when one wishes to ignore issues of race rather than address them head-on.

Again, I know this isn't what you meant, but this is what that phrase often entails.

3 - SAS isn't right at all. He wants NBA coaches to have the same percentage of blacks as NBA players when there is no justification at all for those percentages to be related since many of the coaches either never played in the league or played in the league at a time when the percentages were different than they are today. He also skewed his own argument by not including biracial Jason Kidd in the number of black coaches while simultaneously including biracial players the percentage of black players.

I can't speak for or against SAS' argument because I haven't spent any time digesting it. I am, however, familiar with the racial condition in the NBA and more specifically and more egregiously in the NFL. Such a problem does exist between ownership and the pool of potential hires for managerial positions. This problem has existed for a very long period of time.

With respect to Kidd, and I haven't read SAS' remarks on it, but given what you said I would suppose that SAS is making an argument with respect to colorism rather than racism, the two are often conflated in America.

Either way, if his overall point is that there exists a problem with racism within major league sports and the hiring of management, I completely agree.

4 - Only those weren't Ferry's words, he read what a scout wrote and his own words disagreed with what the scout wrote. An independent investigation completely cleared of any wrongdoing and he still lost his job. He got fired for what someone else wrote.

Yes, I remember now. As I recall, I was against him being fired. He made a genuine, honest mistake, reading something that was written down.

He was the fall guy, and shouldn't have lost his job. No doubt. But someone should have lost their job over it. It just shouldn't have been him.

But in that, I don't think this is an instance of someone not being racist, or a myth of racism existing where it doesn't. There were racist remarks, literally in writing. The problem was that they were attributed to the wrong person, not that they never existed.

 

[KI4MVP]

That's the funny thing about conversations on race; we can see the issue from two completely different angles that seem to exist on entirely different planes of reality.

No one is right or wrong necessarily, but it is fun to read others' views. I respect your opinion nonetheless, and I'm curious to know more about why you feel the way you do about this topic.

I suspect we're really not all that far apart on this because some of this is pretty much exactly what we've agreed on in other issues. Blaming all police for the actions of some is really no different than blaming all muslims for the actions of ISIS. I really would like to see the BLM movement make this distinction because innocent police have gotten murdered.

To be clear, I'm 100% against police brutality and when police cross the line, they should be prosecuted as the criminals they are. In addition, when police cover up for other police who they know broke the law should be charged for obstruction of justice just like anyone else would be. Police brutality happens against all races.

 

[Maximus]

Danny Ferry's comments were indeed racist. I'm not sure I understand how they could be construed otherwise.

Ferry did nothing wrong...in fact, he got screwed. He read a scouting report word for word that wasn't his. He got recorded by a minority(percentage) owner that was at odds with him and the majority owners. Those meetings were all supposed to be off the record, but it was recorded anyways and then leaked. Even though he did nothing wrong, he went to sensitivity training, met with Luol, met with Magic and did quite a few other things to make up for it that will never get written. He took a self imposed suspension even though the league and union said he violated no rules and did nothing racist. When he was mentally ready to get his job back he got screwed by Budz...Luol and many others in the organization were pissed about the whole thing.

The Hawks are going to write him a check for over $30-40M. Great guy, brilliant basketball mind...wish the Cavs had never let him go. Would've been a HOF GM some day.

 

[spydy13]

Ferry did nothing wrong...in fact, he got screwed. He read a scouting report word for word that wasn't his. He got recorded by a minority(percentage) owner that was at odds with him and the majority owners. Those meetings were all supposed to be off the record, but it was recorded anyways and then leaked. Even though he did nothing wrong, he went to sensitivity training, met with Luol, met with Magic and did quite a few other things to make up for it that will never get written. He took a self imposed suspension even though the league and union said he violated no rules and did nothing racist. When he was mentally ready to get his job back he got screwed by Budz...Luol and many others in the organization were pissed about the whole thing.

The Hawks are going to write him a check for over $30-40M. Great guy, brilliant basketball mind...wish the Cavs had never let him go. Would've been a HOF GM some day.

Guessing you won't want to go on record, but was that scouting report from the Cavs?

 

[gourimoko]

I suspect we're really not all that far apart on this because some of this is pretty much exactly what we've agreed on in other issues. Blaming all police for the actions of some is really no different than blaming all muslims for the actions of ISIS. I really would like to see the BLM movement make this distinction because innocent police have gotten murdered.

To be clear, I'm 100% against police brutality and when police cross the line, they should be prosecuted as the criminals they are. In addition, when police cover up for other police who they know broke the law should be charged for obstruction of justice just like anyone else would be. Police brutality happens against all races.

I agree with everything you said.. 100%..

But, the last sentence you stated; "Police brutality happens against all races," I think this is what is lost by many who don't really understand what "Black Lives Matters" means.

It doesn't mean that police brutality only happens to Blacks. It happens to more Whites in total than to Blacks. It also doesn't mean that White, or Brown, or "Blue" lives don't matter. These things are not entailed in the argument, but instead added by proxy.

The reason the protesters say "Black Lives Matter" is because Blacks are being targeted, disproportionately, more so than any other group. This isn't to say that Blacks aren't disproportionately committing crimes, which is often the follow-up to that; but instead, is to point out that when those crimes are committed, Blacks are treated very differently than Whites for the same offenses.

That's the point.

To close with "police brutality happens to everyone," or "all lives matter, let's focus on brutality itself and not race," misses this key point entirely. Both are very true statements, and we should focus on brutality against everyone. But simultaneously, we need to address the targeting of Blacks and minorities.

BLM isn't just about police brutality, it's also about the specific targeting of Blacks by the police. This is a distinct and very real issue.

 

[gourimoko]

Ferry did nothing wrong...in fact, he got screwed. He read a scouting report word for word that wasn't his. He got recorded by a minority(percentage) owner that was at odds with him and the majority owners. Those meetings were all supposed to be off the record, but it was recorded anyways and then leaked. Even though he did nothing wrong, he went to sensitivity training, met with Luol, met with Magic and did quite a few other things to make up for it that will never get written. He took a self imposed suspension even though the league and union said he violated no rules and did nothing racist. When he was mentally ready to get his job back he got screwed by Budz...Luol and many others in the organization were pissed about the whole thing.

The Hawks are going to write him a check for over $30-40M. Great guy, brilliant basketball mind...wish the Cavs had never let him go. Would've been a HOF GM some day.

As I said to KI, yes I understand, not saying Ferry is a racist, nor do I think he should've been fired.

Someone did deserve to lose their job(s), I just don't think it was him.

p.s.
And with respect to it being a closed-door meeting; I'm not sure why that matters?

 

[Maximus]

As I said to KI, yes I understand, not saying Ferry is a racist, nor do I think he should've been fired.

Someone did deserve to lose their job(s), I just don't think it was him.

p.s.
And with respect to it being a closed-door meeting; I'm not sure why that matters?

Merely pointing out how many rules they broke of their own and how badly they handled the situation. There was also no one in the Hawks organization for them to fire for the scouting report.