Racial Tension in the U.S.

[gourimoko]

I’m just trying to get to the bottom of you’re saying.

You say that there is a tangible social construct in which minorities are affected in the job interviewing process.

I’m just not sure what you’re referring to here.

I'm saying that non-Whites are less likely to be hired than Whites in both a blind-selection process as well as in personal, face-to-face candidate interviews. This works across groups, but, we're just talking about race and gender for the moment.

The reason behind this is specifically due to implicit and unconscious biases demonstrated by all people; not just Whites. In fact, the race of the interviewer isn't really all that relevant, again, since everyone has these biases.

We suspect it's largely implicit and not explicit bias primarily because such explicit bias simply isn't commonplace enough to account for such a large discrepancy; explicit bias is conscious action and one could reasonably expect conformity to group boundaries, and yet we don't observe this to be the case (i.e., demonstrable in-group discrimination); and lastly, in the aforementioned study conducted in Scandinavia regarding gender discrimination, simply being aware of the implicit biases and how they affect hiring practices and having some modicum of outreach almost completely mitigated it's effects with relation to gender (this wouldn't be the case if it were explicit sexism).

 

[Kyrie4MVP0202]

On the whole, I've never suggested otherwise. You shouldn't take my argument for criminal justice reform as an indictment of every police officer on the force. I've said this before, a White cop legit saved my life .. so I'm not out against cops in some generalized sense.

So with that being said, I don't see the point in ignoring systemic issues in not just policing, and those issues are numerous and problematic and not wholly related to race (video of the White kid getting murdered while on his knees comes to mind), but also in the criminal justice system overall.

I mean, we can all surely agree we want fairness, equity, and due process for all Americans, right? That's really what this boils down to.

We live in very equal times considering the sheer diversity, population, and shaky past of the country.

I’m not sure how it’s possible to make it any more equal than it is.

It seems to me that black communities and black media in general are leading fights that are wholly unnecessary and self serving. In the end, it damages perceptions when these claims are held up to scrutiny.

If there is going to be any change in these communities it must come from within.

What you’re discussing and what black leaders are discussing are often two different things yet you talk as if you are speaking on their behalf. The problems of inner cities far outweigh issues of racism yet black leaders refuse to acknowledge these issues. You sidestep these issues for the most part as well.

You spoke about it in the movie review thread very briefly with Oi a long time ago. I remember because I was surprised by it. I wish you could dig up that post but you basically admitted there are cultural problems. Wouldn’t it be prudent to have rational discussions about these issues?

 

[David.]

We live in very equal times considering the sheer diversity, population, and shaky past of the country.

I’m not sure how it’s possible to make it any more equal than it is.

It seems to me that black communities and black media in general are leading fights that are wholly unnecessary and self serving. In the end, it damages perceptions when these claims are held up to scrutiny.

If there is going to be any change in these communities it must come from within.

What you’re discussing and what black leaders are discussing are often two different things yet you talk as if you are speaking on their behalf. The problems of inner cities far outweigh issues of racism yet black leaders refuse to acknowledge these issues. You sidestep these issues for the most part as well.

You spoke about it in the movie review thread very briefly with Oi a long time ago. I remember because I was surprised by it. I wish you could dig up that post but you basically admitted there are cultural problems. Wouldn’t it be prudent to have rational discussions about these issues?

Right, and I'll answer your post tomorrow @gourimoko but (one of) the problem(s) many have with your guys message is that it's all about fixing small disparities rather than a message about personal responsibility. Yes, society is not what it could be. It could be better. Every single individual could too. The message isn't about what you're doing for yourself, it's about finding people to blame. "We don't care about the crime, we care about the discrepancy in the penalty." NONE of these messages have anything to do with responsibility. It's all rights. It's only half the equation.

It's frankly just irritating listening to people talk about how bad they have it all the time. I can't say this enough but it's like people still don't understand that no one has it easy. I don't even want to say the cliche talking point here and list disadvantages again, but we all have it tough and some of the message frankly should be "get off your own ass, take responsibility for your own life and in the meantime we'll work on xyz."

I wish it was possible to have that message (MLK had it) but that would lose votes, and this one just fosters a lot of resentment for people that didn't do anything in a bunch of people who have been riled up as part of a political agenda. All of the people who really listen to that half of the equation jump right.

You know there are a lot of problems people are very well capable of fixing themselves. Not a single mention from anyone on the left of advocating learning a skilled trade and getting themselves out of poverty and crime so they don't have to worry about sentencing. Just an example. Nothing about the importance of family or staying in school. It's vitriol pointed at the system, racism, police (and way more than a lot of people are comfortable with, white people).

There is literally nothing a white person can do that a black person can't do today. Telling them how fucked they are and how fucked the system is isn't going to encourage MOST to work harder, which EVERYONE could stand to do, it's gonna fuck em up and make them hate and kill their spirit. Why on earth would they even try? The message that "you're responsible for you" is just a better one than is "the system sucks".

Yes, I support awareness of implicit bias to quell faulty hiring decisions. It'd be stupid not to. Yes I want equal sentencing. Yes I would love for the discussion not to be limited to rights, but to also include responsibility.

 

[-Akronite-]

There are impoverished people all over this country.

Native American communities struggle, white communities in rural areas struggle, farming communities struggle, Latino communities struggle. There’s poverty everywhere.

I think you’re projecting your own feelings of guilt.

Projecting what though? The conversation was about the disparity between poor and rich students.

I didn't say there weren't communities beyond blacks that struggle. And I'm certainly not arguing that racism only affects black people or that racial disparity is only about black people or that poverty only affects black people, that'd be insane. Race is an issue because we don't take proper care of our poor in this country (IMO) and poverty is a problem that is disproportionately associated with race.

I don't understand what you're getting at. I mean, you even ignored the part of my post where I said if you remove race my point still stands because there is unequal opportunity just based on money in this country as well. You jumped into the conversation to derail with these vague and pointless questions instead of actually engaging.

EDIT: Based on your recent posts I have to assume you're the real Kyrie now and trying to pass yourself off as deep?

 

[-Akronite-]

Akronite,
You and I are so far apart that to pursue a solution to the problem with dialog is borderline useless.
You think it is complex. I think it is fairly simple. Its like we aren't even talking about the same problem.
I offered an explanation for a correlation you identified between wealthy areas and school performance. You rejected that explanation. Fine. We disagree.

Everything on this site is useless except for an attempt to have some lively debate and better understand other ideas and our own arguments. So no worries, engage or don't.

Here's a perfect example of our dis-connect.
Now you say I'm blaming kids/families and not recognizing that schools are failing them. My recognition of that fact is what brought me into the conversation in the first place. I absolutely hate it that many kids have no choice but to attend failing public schools such as Baltimore, Cleveland and Detroit.

But when an immediate and valid alternative is suggested for those kids...vouchers and freedom to open enroll in other schools...out come the naysayers. Somehow, getting those kids into better schools is not so important anymore. The problem is too complex, we are told. BS.

You say naysayers as if they don't have a valid problem.

1) What do we do about failing schools? They are not a business we can just let fail in the free market, some kids/families will always be depending on this publicly funded entity. THIS is part of what I find complex.

2) It's been mentioned that vouchers take more money away from public funding. So you're not only leaving some kids behind in the worse schools, but you're also making them worse at the same time. Unless we can get a voucher for every kid and make sure all children get a quality education, the problem persists.

Winning some ideological argument quickly becomes more important than actually helping poor kids go to good schools now!
Another, slightly longer term suggestion was forcing failing schools to model themselves after successful schools(there are many) that serve a similar student demographic snapshot. Again, that draws little or no support from people in high positions in failing districts.

Can't speak too much to this, but I'm interested in a story on it if you can provide a source.

Out comes the mantra..."Give us more money and we will improve". It has been shown that is not effective. But year after year, decade after decade, poor kids have no other choice but to attend bad schools, because...we needs more money...and its complicated. BS

As I've said, and we agree, funding does not guarantee success.

I agree that there are factors beyond money. I just don't agree that it's simply that rich parents have good traits they pass down. I think that ignores the complexities of the situation. You are not beholden to me, but you did not address what I stated about this.

Nobody cares more about kids more than their parents. Those parents, of all economic classes, want their kids to go to good schools. There are ways to make that happen. It is not so complicated as people want us to believe. There are people who know how to run good schools. There is sufficient money. What's lacking is the will to make the necessary changes because political strongholds have been erected and they must be protected at all costs.

I actually agree to some extent.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm saying that non-Whites are less likely to be hired than Whites in both a blind-selection process as well as in personal, face-to-face candidate interviews.

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

 

[Tlyons]

We live in very equal times considering the sheer diversity, population, and shaky past of the country.

I’m not sure how it’s possible to make it any more equal than it is.

It seems to me that black communities and black media in general are leading fights that are wholly unnecessary and self serving. In the end, it damages perceptions when these claims are held up to scrutiny.

If there is going to be any change in these communities it must come from within.

What you’re discussing and what black leaders are discussing are often two different things yet you talk as if you are speaking on their behalf. The problems of inner cities far outweigh issues of racism yet black leaders refuse to acknowledge these issues. You sidestep these issues for the most part as well.

You spoke about it in the movie review thread very briefly with Oi a long time ago. I remember because I was surprised by it. I wish you could dig up that post but you basically admitted there are cultural problems. Wouldn’t it be prudent to have rational discussions about these issues?

Right, and I'll answer your post tomorrow @gourimoko but (one of) the problem(s) many have with your guys message is that it's all about fixing small disparities rather than a message about personal responsibility. Yes, society is not what it could be. It could be better. Every single individual could too. The message isn't about what you're doing for yourself, it's about finding people to blame. "We don't care about the crime, we care about the discrepancy in the penalty." NONE of these messages have anything to do with responsibility. It's all rights. It's only half the equation.

It's frankly just irritating listening to people talk about how bad they have it all the time. I can't say this enough but it's like people still don't understand that no one has it easy. I don't even want to say the cliche talking point here and list disadvantages again, but we all have it tough and some of the message frankly should be "get off your own ass, take responsibility for your own life and in the meantime we'll work on xyz."

I wish it was possible to have that message (MLK had it) but that would lose votes, and this one just fosters a lot of resentment for people that didn't do anything in a bunch of people who have been riled up as part of a political agenda. All of the people who really listen to that half of the equation jump right.

You know there are a lot of problems people are very well capable of fixing themselves. Not a single mention from anyone on the left of advocating learning a skilled trade and getting themselves out of poverty and crime so they don't have to worry about sentencing. Just an example. Nothing about the importance of family or staying in school. It's vitriol pointed at the system, racism, police (and way more than a lot of people are comfortable with, white people).

There is literally nothing a white person can do that a black person can't do today. Telling them how fucked they are and how fucked the system is isn't going to encourage MOST to work harder, which EVERYONE could stand to do, it's gonna fuck em up and make them hate and kill their spirit. Why on earth would they even try? The message that "you're responsible for you" is just a better one than is "the system sucks".

Yes, I support awareness of implicit bias to quell faulty hiring decisions. It'd be stupid not to. Yes I want equal sentencing. Yes I would love for the discussion not to be limited to rights, but to also include responsibility.

Is it possible that you guys are listening to said black leaders only when they are saying things you disagree with?

Who is saying personal responsibility should be put on the backburner?

 

[-Akronite-]

The problems of inner cities far outweigh issues of racism yet black leaders refuse to acknowledge these issues.

There is plenty of baffling stuff in your post but the bold is just a straight up lie. How on Earth did you come to this conclusion?

 

[David.]

Is it possible that you guys are listening to said black leaders only when they are saying things you disagree with?

Who is saying personal responsibility should be put on the backburner?

I think b. O., one time, said we need to focus on the family unit and the response was so bad he never returned to that conception. Never hear about it. Bernie, Hillary, any running democrat. I don't hear anything whatsoever about anything but the system and how bad it is.

Who are you referring to? Are they running for office or?

 

[MediumBaller]

I think b. O., one time, said we need to focus on the family unit and the response was so bad he never returned to that conception. Never hear about it. Bernie, Hillary, any running democrat. I don't hear anything whatsoever about anything but the system and how bad it is.

Who are you referring to? Are they running for office or?

Also, Ben Carson said that poverty is a state of mind and he got roasted for it. There are a lot of things in people's own power that they can do to improve their situations but you rarely hear people talking about them. When they do, the response seems to usually be pretty negative.

 

[gourimoko]

Also, Ben Carson said that poverty is a state of mind and he got roasted for it. There are a lot of things in people's own power that they can do to improve their situations but you rarely hear people talking about them. When they do, the response seems to usually be pretty negative.

Just some points of clarification here:

1) Ben Carson isn't a "leader of the Black community," nor has he ever presented himself in such a fashion.
2) Ben Carson's remarks were pretty ignorant, particularly given his position as Secretary of HUD.

Poverty is more than just a "state of mind," and trying to reduce it down to an argument about how hard you pull on your own bootstraps ignores the issues of the poor and working class.

 

[David.]

Just some points of clarification here:

1) Ben Carson isn't a "leader of the Black community," nor has he ever presented himself in such a fashion.
2) Ben Carson's remarks were pretty ignorant, particularly given his position as Secretary of HUD.

Poverty is more than just a "state of mind," and trying to reduce it down to an argument about how hard you pull on your own bootstraps ignores the issues of the poor and working class.

how does it ignore it? It seems like it just communicates that the only way out is to work through it and that while difficult, you can do it with the right state of mind. I don't see how that's ignorant.

The only reason it discounts circumstances is because you can't be focused on circumstances, it does absolutely nothing for you, what yiu can do needs to take priority. Yes it absolutely could have been communicated better, but that absolutely is the only way out. Is there another way that you can think of?

 

[Whittaker]

What do we do about failing schools?

Give every parent in that district options...vouchers or open enrollment to a better school.

Unless we can get a voucher for every kid

Now you're getting it. Why can't we give every kid a voucher? The money is already there. Why shouldn't it follow the kid? We could start with vouchers for every kid in below average schools. After that flushes out we could expand it to all.
Nobody is stuck in a bad school if everyone in a bad school has a voucher or can open enroll in a nearby good school.
How is this not helping kids who are stuck in bad schools?
It doesn't add costs.
It doesn't force anyone to change schools.
What it does is threaten:
-The political power structures in the bad schools and districts.
-The people benefiting from the money flow into bad schools and districts.
-The careers of people in leadership in the bad schools and districts.
-The people who are ideologically opposed to poor parents having a real say in how their children are educated.

If we really want every child to have good educational opportunities, the price is their wrath.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

That's a very complex question ... I'm not sure I can give you a brief or concise answer since it's not my area of expertise.

Well, that's never stopped you before...



(sorry, couldn't resist).

 

[MediumBaller]

Just some points of clarification here:

1) Ben Carson isn't a "leader of the Black community," nor has he ever presented himself in such a fashion.
2) Ben Carson's remarks were pretty ignorant, particularly given his position as Secretary of HUD.

Poverty is more than just a "state of mind," and trying to reduce it down to an argument about how hard you pull on your own bootstraps ignores the issues of the poor and working class.

It didn't sound like he was trying to say that poverty is only a state of mind. From what I gathered from his comments it sounded like he was trying to get at how a person's mindset has a big impact on their living situation. If you walk around with a defeated attitude you're probably going to have a tough time.

Ben Carson isn't a leader of the Black community, I agree, but he's still a good success story. Who would you consider to be leaders of the Black community?