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The Capricious Non partisan Government Arbitrary Action thread.

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
"Twenty days later Pruitt announced his decision to deny a petition to ban Dow’s chlorpyrifos pesticide from being sprayed on food, despite a review by his agency’s scientists that concluded ingesting even minuscule amounts of the chemical can interfere with the brain development of fetuses and infants."

I must ask: Do you want your children exposed to this chemical via their food?

The thing I am disgusted about is you don't care if these dangerous chemicals are used in stuff our kids eat.

You would rather be technically right than have safe food. That is pathological.

Did either of you guys make any effort, at all, to see what the basis was for not banning chlorpyrifos completely, or is that article the only thing either of you read?
 
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The journalist embellished his story.

the editors issued a retraction

the original story suggest wrong doing between Dow Chemicals and Pruitt on the basis of a meeting

and no other supporting evidence of that wrong doing.

The scientist don't dictate policy. There is a guy who looks over the research and determines if the research is valid and if the impact of the research merits policy change. That guy then goes to Pruitt and counsels Pruitt. Pruitt then makes an interest.

These decisions are always factoring Business, Citizens and safety concerns.


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-dow-pesticides-trump-20170420-story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/29/us/politics/epa-insecticide-chlorpyrifos.html

These Article show Pruitt had no intention of supporting the ban and did not immediately reverse his own ruling.

Dow donated 1 million to the Trump Campaign. their CEO is a Trump advisor of some sorts.

Pruitt has always been a friend of big business.

Dow also spent 16 million in lobbying last year and had their own counter report on Lorban.

The EPA didn't ban the chemical for agriculture use. it was on the docket and Pruit made his decision

EPA didn't help their own cause when they said they could of had better controls in place on their own research.

They also have another 5 years to substantiate their research.


but why would Dow need to bribe Pruitt when they have the ear of the white house and Pruitt was already "their" guy
 
You seem much more interested in a media retraction related to the length of a meeting that did take place, rather than the more important information the story provided:

The larger issue of press accuracy/accountability impacts every single important issue in this country, and that's why I chose to comment on that rather than on a single regulatory decision relating to a single product. Especially since I lack the scientific basis or information to evaluate the argument on its merits. Admittedly, that latter point doesn't seem to have stopped you guys....

AP retracted that story. The problem - as usual - is that other media sources that picked up the original story didn't pick up the retraction. And that's how it usually goes, which is why "retractions" are a very poor substitute for actually getting it right in the first place. Just a few examples of media outlets still running the original story, no correction.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-epa-pesticide-dow-20170627-story.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/scot...efore-rolling-back-a-ban-on-pesticides-2017-6

http://mashable.com/2017/06/29/epa-scott-pruitt-dow-pesticide-ban/#Uq9QShL4esqp
 
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Did either of you guys make any effort, at all, to see what the basis was for not banning chlorpyrifos completely, or is that article the only thing either of you read?

I went to your link and read the story, including the retraction. I then chose to highlight the part of the article that stood out to me; something I did not know and found shocking. I thought it was important to highlight that vs. the difference in the length of the meeting, which was the content of the retraction.

Noting more, nothing less; no time available to research the chemical further right now. The EPA scientists are trained and paid to do this, and it looks like they reached the opposite conclusion than that of the political leadership. But is a decision like this from the Trump administration really a surprise? Certainly not to me: I expect the vast majority of their decisions to be deregulatory in nature. Pro-business and money at the expense of public safety.

I do need to start paying more attention to this thread and the issues it raises.
 
Dow donated 1 million to the Trump Campaign. their CEO is a Trump advisor of some sorts.

Pruitt has always been a friend of big business.

Dow also spent 16 million in lobbying last year and had their own counter report on Lorban.

These are the relevant facts that inform us on how and why these decisions are actually made.
 
Noting more, nothing less; no time available to research the chemical further right now.

So you read an article that clearly was one-sided on its face, didn't put forth any effort to see if there was an opposing view, and then called me "pathological" for not doing the exact same thing you did.

Maybe you should apply to AP. You'd apparently fit right in.

Here's an idea -- when you read something like that and know you don't have time to do any fact-checking or additional research, maybe....withhold judgment? Or at least not be so sanctimonious with your admittedly ill-informed opinion.

You'll notice that I didn't defend the EPA's decision. I didn't defend what Pruitt did because I knew I didn't have enough information to have an informed opinion.

I then did a bit of digging. Still don't know enough to have a strong opinion either way, but there are certainly two sides to this argument. If you want to see a decent article on it try this one -- it at least presents statements from people on both sides, which should be a prerequisite for any article that should be considered worthwhile. The writer actually attempted to be fair. And its from CNN, so we know at least one person there understands that presenting both sides, even with bias, is a prerequisite if you want to convince thinking people.

EPA won't ban pesticide chlorpyrifos; is it safe?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/health/epa-chlorpyrifos-decision/index.html

Nobody claims that this stuff is completely safe -- almost no pesticides are. The question is whether there are concentrations and uses that minimize the risk and give benefits that increase food production, etc..

This stuff was actually banned from residential use more than a decade and a half ago. That's an important fact, and here is one thing in this article that jumped out at me when discussing the proposal for a complete ban:

This proposal relied primarily on four studies from Columbia Center for Children's Environmental Health that examined associations with chlorpyrifos and neurodevelopment. The Columbia researchers looked at chlorpyrifos concentrations in umbilical cord blood of babies over a roughly 10-year period -- five years before the residential ban and five years after.

In the first half of the study, researchers could measure concentrations in picograms in some children, though not all. (One picogram equals one trillionth of a gram.) After the residential ban took effect, no measure amount was found in any of the children.

The entire article is pretty well-balanced, and includes this bit from another official in January - prior to Trump ever taking office:

In a public document issued January 17, Sheryl H. Kunickis, director of the Office of Pest Management Policy at the USDA, expressed "grave concerns about the EPA process that has led to the Agency publishing three wildly different human health risk assessments for chlorpyrifos within two years."

Kunickis also said she had "severe doubts about the validity of the scientific conclusions underpinning EPA's latest chlorpyrifos risk assessment."

Compared to this CNN article, the AP article was compete garbage, and not just because it made up a private meeting that never happened.
 
So you read an article that clearly was one-sided on its face, didn't put forth any effort to see if there was an opposing view, and then called me "pathological" for not doing the exact same thing you did.

Maybe you should apply to AP. You'd apparently fit right in.

Here's an idea -- when you read something like that and know you don't have time to do any fact-checking or additional research, maybe....withhold judgment? Or at least not be so sanctimonious with your admittedly ill-informed opinion.

You'll notice that I didn't defend the EPA's decision. I didn't defend what Pruitt did because I knew I didn't have enough information to have an informed opinion.

I then did a bit of digging. Still don't know enough to have a strong opinion either way, but there are certainly two sides to this argument. If you want to see a decent article on it try this one -- it at least presents statements from people on both sides, which should be a prerequisite for any article that should be considered worthwhile. The writer actually attempted to be fair. And its from CNN, so we know at least one person there understands that presenting both sides, even with bias, is a prerequisite if you want to convince thinking people.

EPA won't ban pesticide chlorpyrifos; is it safe?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/health/epa-chlorpyrifos-decision/index.html

Nobody claims that this stuff is completely safe -- almost no pesticides are. The question is whether there are concentrations and uses that minimize the risk and give benefits that increase food production, etc..

This stuff was actually banned from residential use more than a decade and a half ago. That's an important fact, and here is one thing in this article that jumped out at me when discussing the proposal for a complete ban:

This proposal relied primarily on four studies from Columbia Center for Children's Environmental Health that examined associations with chlorpyrifos and neurodevelopment. The Columbia researchers looked at chlorpyrifos concentrations in umbilical cord blood of babies over a roughly 10-year period -- five years before the residential ban and five years after.

In the first half of the study, researchers could measure concentrations in picograms in some children, though not all. (One picogram equals one trillionth of a gram.) After the residential ban took effect, no measure amount was found in any of the children.

The entire article is pretty well-balanced, and includes this bit from another official in January - prior to Trump ever taking office:

In a public document issued January 17, Sheryl H. Kunickis, director of the Office of Pest Management Policy at the USDA, expressed "grave concerns about the EPA process that has led to the Agency publishing three wildly different human health risk assessments for chlorpyrifos within two years."

Kunickis also said she had "severe doubts about the validity of the scientific conclusions underpinning EPA's latest chlorpyrifos risk assessment."

Compared to this CNN article, the AP article was compete garbage, and not just because it made up a private meeting that never happened.

I did not call you pathological. That was another poster.

I do your appreciate you broadening your approach beyond the superficial Trump media war. It appears in this case you were able to see through that and were able to utilize CNN as an information resource source and not simply the recepient of a Trump Twitter WWE beat down.

I would still be concerned about the use of these (and many other) chemicals, but it is also true that they are a central component of our modern society and the cancer and disease that result are balanced against useful applications in our capitalist economy. Money will generally trump public safety until the MSM brings it to the fore and it become problematic for political actors.
 

Now, granted this isn't a widely discredited study with porous methodology that has been trashed throughout the years, but I thought this was a solid analogy/summary of the current voter fraud "problem."
 
Surely you see that the following "take" is absurd on it's face:

You assign me an absurd partisan "take" and then ask how is that left field!
The End.
the only thing absurd is the direction of this conversation.

I assigned you nothing. you responded to my post and I asked you to clarify..
if I did assign you something it was your own words.

if that wasn't what you meant.. then just say.. "hey that's not what I meant and move on".

I think that would of sufficed instead you decided to attack the poster for your own words in context.

so you don't think its just extremist republican faction calling trump names.

that's what I was asking. hence the question mark.
 

Now, granted this isn't a widely discredited study with porous methodology that has been trashed throughout the years, but I thought this was a solid analogy/summary of the current voter fraud "problem."
Actually, it isn't a study at all and makes a claim that it doesn't even try to corroborate because it can't.

Have you yet watched the video to which Trump is referring or did CNN tell you to hate something and that was good enough?

You keep being recklessly offensive to everyone you interact with on a daily basis, everyone else will continue to call you out.

Good move on insulting your own team today, stewie.
 
Actually, it isn't a study at all and makes a claim that it doesn't even try to corroborate because it can't.

Have you yet watched the video to which Trump is referring or did CNN tell you to hate something and that was good enough?

You keep being recklessly offensive to everyone you interact with on a daily basis, everyone else will continue to call you out.

Good move on insulting your own team today, stewie.

I'm posting this based on Kris Kobach's highly questionable Voter Suppression panel, not because of some dipshit video Trump is referencing.
 
I want to revisit the States not providing their records to the federal government.
The integrity voting commission says they are just asking for publicly available information.

However the states are indicating they are asking for much more than that

‘Suppression’ Tool
North Carolina officials said in a statement that they’ll comply only with requests for public information and won’t turn over partial Social Security numbers, driver’s license numbers or dates of birth, which are confidential under certain state or federal laws.

In Oklahoma, which Trump won in November by 36 percentage points over Democrat Hillary Clinton, election officials plan to hand over publicly available voter rolls but won’t comply with requests for partial Social Security numbers.

Several other states announced that the president’s panel will get more limited data and would also have to pay for it, the way political campaigns do.

Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe, a Democrat, said in a statement that he has “no intention of honoring this request,” and questioned the panel’s motives. The commission “at worse is a tool to commit large-scale voter suppression,” McAuliffe said.

Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, the top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said in a statement on Friday that she was “alarmed” at the request by the “so-called voter-fraud commission” for personal data and voting history “with absolutely no legal basis for doing so.”

More people are hit by lightning in the U.S. than commit in-person voter fraud, Feinstein said, citing the non-partisan Brennan Center for Justice at New York University’s School of Law.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-slams-states-declining-detailed-153001854.html


I have huge concerns over this commission and their actual purpose. Is this just a ruse to form a List hat identify State residents who aren't US citizens?

@The Human Q-Tip I have interest in your views on Topic simply because most of your views are pro state rights.

Should the Federal Government be able to compel States to give up their Election data beyond what is already publicly Available?

Also shouldn't states have some say in who they allow to reside in their state regarding immigrants who aren't National security threats?


 

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