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The Capricious Non partisan Government Arbitrary Action thread.

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All executive orders are subject to law and not to supercdeded the law. EO' state that themselves typically multiple times.

EO's do not write law they write policies and if those policies infringe on the constitutionality of the law it is up to a judge to make a decision on that EO.

There is no slippery slope. if a president issues an EO and someone feels it violates the laws it is intended to follow then it is up to the courts to make a decision.

Eo's themselves are interpretation of laws they reference to give them valid standing

to the gun control example. if the gun control order had a legal basis and targeted urban areas and not rural areas or identified Detroit, Jackson ,Miami gardens, Baltimore, Memphis and New Orleans for example. the constitutionality of such an order would certainly be in question just as Actual laws regarding voting requirements fell under US scrutiny.

Also the Individual mandate was part of an act passed by congress and not an EO.

Should the president be able to potentially infringe n the constitution and circumvent discrimination laws without any checks and balances.


Mostly what your saying is states should have no legal standing to take legal action when there is perceived damage from executive orders.

hasn't State Rights been neutered enough? take away their ability to challenge the federal government in court and what is the point of having states at all?
 
All executive orders are subject to law and not to supercdeded the law. EO' state that themselves typically multiple times.

EO's do not write law they write policies and if those policies infringe on the constitutionality of the law it is up to a judge to make a decision on that EO.

There is no slippery slope. if a president issues an EO and someone feels it violates the laws it is intended to follow then it is up to the courts to make a decision.

Eo's themselves are interpretation of laws they reference to give them valid standing

to the gun control example. if the gun control order had a legal basis and targeted urban areas and not rural areas or identified Detroit, Jackson ,Miami gardens, Baltimore, Memphis and New Orleans for example. the constitutionality of such an order would certainly be in question just as Actual laws regarding voting requirements fell under US scrutiny.

Also the Individual mandate was part of an act passed by congress and not an EO.

Should the president be able to potentially infringe n the constitution and circumvent discrimination laws without any checks and balances.


Mostly what your saying is states should have no legal standing to take legal action when there is perceived damage from executive orders.

hasn't State Rights been neutered enough? take away their ability to challenge the federal government in court and what is the point of having states at all?
I have goldfish attention span.

What specifically do you think is unconstitutional or discriminatory in the eo?
 
I have goldfish attention span.

What specifically do you think is unconstitutional or discriminatory in the eo?
Well as we can from the the eo they did clean up the language and take out the Christian and Muslim references and it sorta grandfathers In current residents however. as to whether the Delete repeated word EO specifically targets Muslims . that's good matter for the court to decide as it appears to impact the State of Hawaii.

My post was about the right of State to contest an executive order and the courts to take action.

people may be unhappy with the ruling but the initial EO was really fubared

The courts ending up reviewing the replacement EO is not really surprising ,nor is a temporary injunction while the court reviews the revision outrageous.


What we do have is a system attempting to be implemented that seems to be based on the concept guilty until proven innocent.
 
Well as we can from the the eo they did clean up the language and take out the Christian and Muslim references and it sorta grandfathers In current residents however. as to whether the Delete repeated word EO specifically targets Muslims . that's good matter for the court to decide as it appears to impact the State of Hawaii.

My post was about the right of State to contest an executive order and the courts to take action.

people may be unhappy with the ruling but the initial EO was really fubared

The courts ending up reviewing the replacement EO is not really surprising ,nor is a temporary injunction while the court reviews the revision outrageous.


What we do have is a system attempting to be implemented that seems to be based on the concept guilty until proven innocent.
I'm obviously not a lawyer, and i dont even support the ban, but isn't this making a ruling not on the actual order but on.. Other conversation? That doesn't seem to be a good idea to me or set a goos precedent.
 
I'm obviously not a lawyer, and i dont even support the ban, but isn't this making a ruling not on the actual order but on.. Other conversation? That doesn't seem to be a good idea to me or set a goos precedent.

I agree with the judge in what he interprets the EO as, but think it's completely over his head to rule specifically against government. Dude said government waaaaaay too much. Like, I think it targets Muslim's on its face. But, eh, how he wrote his opinion was just shit.
 
I agree with the judge in what he interprets the EO as, but think it's completely over his head to rule specifically against government. Dude said government waaaaaay too much. Like, I think it targets Muslim's on its face. But, eh, how he wrote his opinion was just shit.
Ill have to actually read the judgement. Maybe not, i dont think rhe ban does any good so i dont care much about it.

Just saying, ben shapiro thinks its a bad ruling and he hates trump and graduated from Harvard law
 
Ill have to actually read the judgement. Maybe not, i dont think rhe ban does any good so i dont care much about it.

Just saying, ben shapiro thinks its a bad ruling and he hates trump and graduated from Harvard law

I wouldn't take anything Ben Shapiro says at face value. He may be way smarter than a Sean Hannity, or Bill O'Reilly, but he occupies the same niche in life.

A hold on this type of EO was going to happen. It was a given considering the circumstances. I think it will be far more interesting to see how all this plays out when it also inevitably decided at the SCOTUS level. Whatever precedent is set will have consequences that will long outlive Trump's presidency.
 
I wouldn't take anything Ben Shapiro says at face value. He may be way smarter than a Sean Hannity, or Bill O'Reilly, but he occupies the same niche in life.

A hold on this type of EO was going to happen. It was a given considering the circumstances. I think it will be far more interesting to see how all this plays out when it also inevitably decided at the SCOTUS level. Whatever precedent is set will have consequences that will long outlive Trump's presidency.
Ive listened to hours of him. Hes got blind spots, but he's nowhere near shilling for the right. Hes incredibly critical of trump. I wont split hairs on every point, but if were giving credit to the young turks who among other things are armenian genocide deniers and the epitome of intellectual dishonesty, no way in sams hell does ben shapiro not get credit. Hes honest about his biases and gives fair acknowledgement of the opposing side on everything outside of battling a couple pieces of the progressive movement

Isnt the courts job to decide if the eo is or isn't constitutional?
 
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Ive listened to hours of him. Hes got blind spots, but he's nowhere near shilling for the right. Hes incredibly critical of trump. I wont split hairs on every point, but if were giving credit to the young turks, no way in sams hell does ben shapiro not get credit.

Isnt the courts job to decide if the eo is or isn't constitutional?

Yes. That is probably why it will end up in the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) because either side will appeal endlessly. 9th Circuit has already shown itself to be unfriendly to any similar EO so the only place for it to go is to the Supremes.
 
Ill have to actually read the judgement. Maybe not, i dont think rhe ban does any good so i dont care much about it.

Just saying, ben shapiro thinks its a bad ruling and he hates trump and graduated from Harvard law

So yeah, nail on the head. The ban really doesn't do much in terms of positives. The judge makes a ruling that's just outwardly anti-trump and basically reiterates the previous decision. Bad look on the judges part to hammer the gov't rather than the EO specifically. Was just weird.
 
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This is out of my wheelhouse. Feel free to discuss. No idea.

Ben Shapiro, the "never trumper":

"I have serious issues with the order, but judges arent legislators".

View: https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/842169205348745216



ANOTHER Court Strikes Down Trump's New Immigration Executive Order. Here's Everything You Need To Know.

isis-cubs-brainwashed_0.jpg

BY:
BEN SHAPIRO
MARCH 15, 2017
7600 2553 195 Comments 38825

In another blow to President Trump’s attempts to quash travel from terror-rich countries until better vetting procedures can be implemented, a federal judge in Hawaii put a nationwide hold on Trump’s immigration and refugee executive order. Again.

The ruling is yet another incident of judicial overreach. The executive branch has clear powers in the area of immigration restriction and refugee admittance. There could have been arguments that the original travel ban as constructed violated the mandates of Section 1152(a) of Title 8 of the U.S. Code, which says “no person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of the person’s race, sex, nationality, place of birth, or place of residence.” The counterargument was that Section 1182(f) grants the president the ability to suspend the entry of “all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants” so long as the president declares them “detrimental to the interests of the United States.”

But the revised travel ban simply doesn’t run into these issues. It removes language favoring refugees of certain religions, it doesn’t apply to current green card holders, and the president clearly has the capacity to suspend visas from terror-rich countries (that’s been done repeatedly, including by Jimmy Carter in 1980).

So, what was the court’s problem this time?

First, the judge argued that the new executive order discriminated on the basis of religion, even though the executive order clearly does not do so – in fact, the revised executive order was designed not to do so. To dispute that claim, the court relies on out-of-court statements by Trump adviser Stephen Miller, who said on February 21, “Fundamentally, you’re still going to have the same basic policy outcome for the country.” Here’s the court:

Because a reasonable, objective observer… would conclude that the Executive Order was issued with a purpose to disfavor a particular religion, in spite of its stated, religiously-neutral purpose, the Court finds that Plaintiffs, and Dr. Elshikh in particular, are likely to succeed on the merits of their Establishment Clause claim.


But what about the fact – undisputed, as the court recognizes – that the text doesn’t talk about religion? What about the fact that the supposed discriminatory ban doesn’t target the vast majority of Muslims the world over? The court says, “The illogic of the Government’s contentions is palpable. The notion that one can demonstrate animus toward any group of people only by targeting all of them at once is fundamentally flawed.” Say what? So any policy that disproportionately affects Muslims, even though it is facially neutral, is now discriminatory according to the court. How does the court know that the executive order is directed against Islam? They quote Trump from March 2016 stating, “I think Islam hates us.” They quote Trump’s infamous Muslim ban press release from 2015.

They say that Trump’s purposes aren’t veiled. The court says that perhaps sometime in the future, Trump will have talked nicely enough about Islam that the ban could become permissible. But not now. They quote the Tenth Circuit on this issue:

But from the above principles we conclude that a government cure should be (1) purposeful, (2) public, and (3) at least as persuasive as the initial endorsement of religion. It should be purposeful enough for an objective observer to know, unequivocally, that the government does not endorse religion. It should be public enough so that people need not burrow into a difficult-to-access legislative record for evidence to assure themselves that the government is not endorsing a religious view.

So talk about the wonders of the muezzin call, President Trump. That might do it.

But if the new standard for legislation and executive orders is that we don’t look to the text but to the stuff said on television, wouldn’t Obamacare have been a fee rather than a tax, and therefore have been struck down by the Supreme Court?

The judge also backed up the earlier court’s fully asinine claim that states can negate federal immigration policy by complaining that they won’t be able to recruit students or maintain levels of tourism: “the State has preliminarily demonstrated that: (1) its universities will suffer monetary damages and intangible harms; (2) the State’s economy is likely to suffer a loss of revenue due to a decline in tourism.” These give the state standing, supposedly.

The judge also gives the main plaintiff, an American Muslim of Egyptian descent – a guy who won't be deported, isn't at risk of deportation, and clearly has no standing – standing, because he might feel “hurt, confused, and sad” due to purported discrimination. Yes, really.

The decision itself is ridiculous. There is no right to enter the United States from abroad for non-citizens; there is no right to be free from religious discrimination in immigration policy for people who are not citizens. Beyond that, this executive order doesn’t actually discriminate against Muslims and doesn’t bar green card holders.

But that’s not enough. Essentially, the court determined that Trump has to talk purty about Islam until they believe him – at which point, they might let him promulgate an executive order barring travel from terror-rich countries that happen to coincide with a Muslim population.

Ridiculous.

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If you haven't read the judges order. how can you decide if you agree with Ben Shapiros opinions on the order.

Caf linked the decision. and the courts decision was a temporary injuction

What the judge did rule was that that the state of Hawaii did have standing and there was enough evidence to continue the injunctions and essentially deferred to the 9th district who will review this new decision of the order.

This was a preliminary order on an existing court decision.

Hawaii did not base its legal standing argument on one guy. that's also in the order as it summarizes the Plaintiffs and the defenses arguments on the matter
 
If you haven't read the judges order. how can you decide if you agree with Ben Shapiros opinions on the order.

Caf linked the decision. and the courts decision was a temporary injuction

What the judge did rule was that that the state of Hawaii did have standing and there was enough evidence to continue the injunctions and essentially deferred to the 9th district who will review this new decision of the order.

This was a preliminary order on an existing court decision.

Hawaii did not base its legal standing argument on one guy. that's also in the order as it summarizes the Plaintiffs and the defenses arguments on the matter
Show me where i agreed with him.
 
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Show me where i agreed with him.

I said several times i didn't know. But torn, im tempted to trust him more than i do you.

I'm happy to say that I agreed with Shapiro right down the line. As to why....

The Order itself is 42 pages long. There is no possible way to present a complete, cogent legal argument debunking it on a message board, and I'm not going to try. I'll just say that I'm familiar with the legal issues and applicable legal doctrines, including standing, and agree with Shapiro that the Order is ridiculous.

Fortunately, the Administration now has nothing to lose by seeking an actual judgement and/or getting an expedited appeal, and it will almost certainly end up at the Supreme Court after Gorsuch has been seated unless the 9th Circuit shoots it down, which is entirely possible.
 
I'm happy to say that I agreed with Shapiro right down the line. As to why....

The Order itself is 42 pages long. There is no possible way to present a complete, cogent legal argument debunking it on a message board, and I'm not going to try. I'll just say that I'm familiar with the legal issues and applicable legal doctrines, including standing, and agree with Shapiro that the Order is ridiculous.

Fortunately, the Administration now has nothing to lose by seeking an actual judgement and/or getting an expedited appeal, and it will almost certainly end up at the Supreme Court after Gorsuch has been seated unless the 9th Circuit shoots it down, which is entirely possible.

Are you saying the is ridiculous or the judgement? Or both?
 

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