"The State of the Great Debate"

[jim jim]

This debate should not be held. We are talking about 2 players at different points in their career, and who play different positions. When Lebron is 29, the question is going to be, Kobe who?

 

[Trill Cosby]

Mahoney: If Kobe wasn't so polarizing, his aesthetic appeal would universally trump LeBron's. His game taps into something so innate and accessible, yet masterful at the same time. He'll always have a connection with fans, for better or worse, because he carries a certain mortality. The Kobe myth needs no introduction, and his failures and shortcomings are well-documented. But take a few of the character hits out of the equation, and Kobe had every chance in the world to be the people's champ. People may flock to excellence, but they really bond with those in hardship. Kobe has stared both in the face, but the jury decided long ago to make him public enemy number one.

LeBron, on the other hand, is already treated with reverence. As the sole human that can make Marv Albert scream, "WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE!", James has climbed Mount Olympus and begun to carve his statue. Do his wild displays of unbridled athleticism demand respect? Most definitely. But that warrior-god quality is what will always create a disconnect from LeBron and the rest of us. Henry really nailed that point home in regard to James' size, but I don't see why it isn't equally applicable to LeBron's style. You can even take it a step beyond Jordan, and bring it full circle back to Bryant: Regardless of whether you love or hate #24, the way that LeBron plays the game will be the very reason why we don't care about him the same way we care about Kobe. He can break every record in the books, but with LeBron, we're all just witnesses, subjects to the brilliance of a king we'll never "know."

This clown wrote this shit and probably thought he dropped knowledge too, lol gtfoh Mahoney.


*emails him a UPS application*

 

[SoundBreaker]

As the sole human that can make Marv Albert scream, "WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE!"

This herb doesn't even realize it's Kevin Harlan who says that.

This dude just lost his card.

Carry on...

 

[Brandname]

Man, I hate TrueHoop.

Really, though, Abbott had one of the more cogent posts I've seen on this topic in a long time from the national media:

Abbott: Here's where I have a view that I know not everyone shares. To me basketball is a really beautiful way to try to figure out winning. What works? You can have all these theories in life (getting up early is the key to success, or networking, or inspiring others, or working hard, or surrounding yourself with good people, or having innate talent ...) but in basketball you get to assess all that nightly on the scoreboard. If what you're doing works better, eventually it'll show up in wins and losses.

We're still figuring out (go Krolik!) how to break a game into its meaningful numerical elements. So instead of being able to prove that this or that player needs to add this or that skill, we make blanket statements. Players ought to be able to score from the post. And have a nice-looking midrange jumper. And do a huge list of things. Josh Tucker and others have demonstrated nicely that Bryant is the king of that list of things.

Does that list of things equal wins, though? That's theory. Good theory. It's usually true. If my kids want to play basketball, I hope they'll believe in the power of mastering the elements of the game.

But I can't get away from the reality that I have watched Kobe Bryant have a lot of inefficient games. Think about it: Why do we all know that Bryant can do magically difficult things? One answer is because he tries to do magically difficult things game after game after game ... even when it's not in his team's best interest. And that shows up in his efficiency, which is stellar for a human, but middle of the pack for a superstar.

LeBron James is not really about magically difficult things, and that might be a key to why he produces. At a rate no one has since Michael Jordan. And he's just getting started.

I am hyperaware of two things:

* The fact that Kobe Bryant can do this or that is less meaningful to me than the reality that James does contribute more to wins.
* Talk of James' shortcomings, in terms of skill and polish, has probably been overblown here. It is less true than ever, and might look downright foolish in a couple of years.

For me, as a guy obsessed with wins, James is more productive by just about every measure. If I could pick just one player to either start a team with or score a key bucket, I'll take LeBron.

That might tell us something about basketball, but I think it tells us that much more about LeBron James, who really is one of a kind.

Pretty close to what I have always thought, but I rarely see a member of the national media express it like that. It was actually kind of refreshing to see. And of course the Kobe fanboy had some of the most obnoxious and fallacious arguments in his favor (3pt%, really?).

 

[breanna]

Really, though, Abbott had one of the more cogent posts I've seen on this topic in a long time from the national media:



Pretty close to what I have always thought, but I rarely see a member of the national media express it like that. It was actually kind of refreshing to see. And of course the Kobe fanboy had some of the most obnoxious and fallacious arguments in his favor (3pt%, really?).

That was a GREAT post by him. The media just doesn't want to believe it.

 

[-Akronite-]

This clown wrote this shit and probably thought he dropped knowledge too, lol gtfoh Mahoney.


*emails him a UPS application*

Wow didn't even see that one. How awful. So because Kobe is 6'6" and has hang time like you wouldn't believe and used to have undeniably amazing athleticism he is somehow more "relate-able"?

Yes, LeBron is a freak athlete, but he is also a rags to riches story, rising from humble beginnings from the inner parts of a very average city. He's a hometown hero that treats everyone well, acts as a role model should, and uses to team mates to succeed. He shows us every night that you have to trust in other people to succeed. Kobe Bryant goes out there for himself as the "assassin". How the hell is that easy to relate to?

So because LeBron is built more like a football player we somehow can't appreciate his abilities? Ridiculous.

Not to mention how well this hack relates to a star has ZERO to do with the debate. I'm not half-Asian OR half-black but I can't deny Tiger Woods domination in golf. I have two testicles but I can still relate to how Lance Armstrong biked his way to the top.

I can't stand people who act like they know everything and and try to "fill us in" on it. For the record, disregard my tirade about how I'm right and he's wrong about LeBron if you want that last statement to not seem hypocritical.

 

[mAo_mAo]

Why not these douche bags create a table or lists of skills that will be a common ground between these two great players and have respective weights for those things and then compute the numerical variables afterwards, so they can have a scientific ground for debate.

Like this:

championships= 10 pts
post skills= 5 pts
footwork= 5 pts
ball handling= 3 pts
leadership= 3 pts
defense (they can break this down to a number of skills)= 3 pts
wins (relative to the number of years)= 10 pts
MVP awards= 5 pts
all star appearances= 3 pts
all star MVP awards= 3 pts

etc etc etc

 

[Cavatt]

I have seen the Lakers win some close games, but it seems to me they have lost more. I keep thinking about our comeback power. Last year we came back from more games in the 4th quarter than anyone. The reason we didn't this year was that we were already winning those games we had to come back from before.

That performance against the Clippers said it all to me. We looked like utter garbage and were playing horrible basketball. Then the team reached down and got it done. Lebron is all about that, shut the other guy down and go to work. The main reason we can do that is Lebron Takes their best scorer out of the game at the end and then scores himself.

Denying those points at the end are just as vital as scoring.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Blech, Kobe bloggers.

All this talk of aesthetics and W.H. Auden comes off as a debate between these guys on basketball:

Thanks to Krolik for sounding like an actual basketball fan whilst remaining in complete control of actual facts.

Sincerely,

~The Most Pompous Man Alive

 

[jvpertz]

The really badly made point about Kobe in that article is this idea that Kobe has a killer instinct. Or he has a killer instinct great than Lebrons. Because if he does then I would love to see it. Lets take a common data set that both players faced last season, the 2007-2008 Boston Celtics.

How did Lebron do? He lost in 7 games and lost the close out game in Boston by 5 points and scored 45 points to end his season.

How did Kobe do? He lost in 6 games and lost the close out game in Boston by 40 points and scored 28 to finish off his season.

How has Kobe done when not paired with other superstars? Very poorly as evidenced by the teams total collapse after the Shaq to Miami trade, and the back to back first round departures from the playoffs in subsequent seasons.

Kobe may be able to say "Ive got this" but Im not sure Kobe's "Ive got this" means much considering the evidence.

 

[tshome]

Listen to the newest Bill Simmons' podcast on espn.com. (minutes 7 - 14)

They have a great discussion about how Kobe was the second best player on the Lakers during their title runs. People always talk about how Kobe is a better player because he has won rings. They never point out that Shaq led that team. If LeBron was the second best player on his team (not possible, since he's the best player in the league), he would have won a title every year he's been in the league.

Quote from Dan Dameshek on the podcast: "Who's better between Kobe and LeBron is laughable. You haven't been watching the two guys play. And it's not to disparage Kobe, but LeBron is just that much better."

 

[NaySmith]

Kobe Bryant doesn't have a single dominant skill that far outweighs all others, like LeBron does. Instead, he has the most complete, versatile, and polished skill set in the NBA. Pull-up jumper, leaner, runner, floater, fadeaway, fallaway, mid-range, long-range, close range, pump fake, jab step, up-and-under, dunk, layup, left hand, right hand, face-up, post-up, driving, elevating, strength, savvy, power, finesse, balance, body control, footwork. Bryant can do it all.

Wow.

I never realized, till now, that basketball is judged like gymnastics - where you're all alone, showing off the skills you've mastered. Then a group of judges will determine the winner based on how, er, polished his skill set is.

I mistakenly thought that basketball was a 5-on-5 game where the objective is for one team to produce more points than the opposing team in a given time frame (at the same time preventing the opposing team from scoring more, of course).

What did we know?

 

[Cavatt]

I don't know anything about foot work really, but I can't imagine that Lebron's is so bad. He splits defenders all the time and doesn't trip as often as Wade. His balance in the air looks about as amazing as anyone ever, and was sealed in my mind with that classic dunk over KG where he puched Lebron in mid-air and LBJ was able to land on his feet. His body control is just phenomenal. In terms of physique he may have more than anyone, but he is also doing more with more.

 

[steveo]

I have to agree that this isnt really even a debate.

Lebron exerts far more control over a game than Kobe can in so many ways. Kobe may have more moves to get off shots at a low percentage, and some possibly can argue a better scorer.

 

[Jon]

I don't know anything about foot work really, but I can't imagine that Lebron's is so bad. He splits defenders all the time and doesn't trip as often as Wade. His balance in the air looks about as amazing as anyone ever, and was sealed in my mind with that classic dunk over KG where he puched Lebron in mid-air and LBJ was able to land on his feet. His body control is just phenomenal. In terms of physique he may have more than anyone, but he is also doing more with more.

Somehow that doesn't count because he's making his moves at full speed that mere mortals cannot match.

LeBron gets to the rim, but how he evades defenders once he gets there and gets up a good shot is amazing.

That definitely takes incredible footwork, but it's so much more about instincts and on the fly reactions than something anyone could master by buying better basketball tapes.