The Trump Administration (just Trump) Thread

[MediumBaller]

Nathan's argument is one of natural consequence by way of reductio ad absurdum. He's arguing that, given the absurdity of the proposition (re: black/white punters), one would require significant evidence in favor of the argument.



That's not actually true. An argument isn't true by default. Nathan is countering that the presented proposition is preposterous (read: absurd), and thus, without any reason to believe it is true, then it is very likely false.

You agree with him that it's not genetic, so it's eliminated as a likely solution; and if you agree with the axiom that it's either nature or nurture, then by consequence, you must agree that it's nurture (i.e., societal influences)

It's more likely than not that it is because of societal influences. I agree with that. He's proclaiming it as fact though without any data. Not even anything as simple as a white kid saying he was influenced to be a punter, or a black kid saying he was influenced to not be a punter. I'm sure it's not that hard to find.

My problem isn't even really with this argument particular. It's with the ones of him saying things like "oh certain jobs are perceived as white people jobs" or "white basketball players are intimidated by black basketball players." They're far out there theories that he states without any evidence.

 

[gourimoko]

It's more likely than not that it is because of societal influences. I agree with that. He's proclaiming it as fact though without any data.

He's saying the same thing you are; that, it's absurd to think it wouldn't be societal. There are rational, reasonable, and scientific reasons behind this -- particularly if the comparison is Black vs White, and especially if we're talking about Black people in North or South America.

Not even anything as simple as a white kid saying he was influenced to be a punter, or a black kid saying he was influenced to not be a punter.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. @Nathan S is saying the causative relationship is not genetic.

 

[Sebastian]

I was talking with my platoon sergeant way back in the early 20-teens about slavery (he's black). Amongst things discussed when I was bitching about LeBron, who was in Miami at the time, was that he felt perhaps the only advantage that came out slavery was selective breeding creating super athletes amongst the African-American population (I guess this was also a Chris Rock bit).

I wasn't about to contradict his hypothesis, but I thought I might bring it up given the context of this discussion.

 

[KI4MVP]

I think you need to know where to begin for this to be a reality. That is to say, it's my experience that a person (regardless of race), needs to understand and have a gameplan before jumping right in and just learning to code from scratch with no support structure, no formal education, nothing... It's quite difficult just to conceptualize how to get started, let alone getting it done... and that's true for students in our universities, not just folks wondering what to do next sitting at home.

I also would not consider the world a level playing field only in the sense that countries like India, China, and the Philippines, where most of the H1B1 visas and offshore developers are coming from are taught computer programming, in a formal setting, starting at age 16. So that, by 20-21 years old, they've had 4 years collegiate experience, and given their low wages, they get tremendous amounts of experience comparatively to American developers who don't have equivalent academic and professional history.

Other countries invest enormous amounts of resources, public and private, into their kids to ensure they have the formal academic education necessary to pursue their chosen careers.

Here in the states, we've really abandoned that way of thinking, and to the detriment of the less advantaged socioeconomic classes.

The U.S. should re-evaluate how we approach problems like this, and consider a more regimented, and early education program where, by the age of 15, a student has a very good idea what job they'll have, potentially for the rest of their lives.

Sure, we absolutely should be teaching these skills in high school.

But my point about leveling the playing field is the tools are there for anyone who is willing, and has the self discipline, to put in the work. Race (and gender) are irrelevant.

I didn't say it would be easy. It most certainly will be hard work.

 

[The Oi]

I was talking with my platoon sergeant way back in the early 20-teens about slavery (he's black). Amongst things discussed when I was bitching about LeBron, who was in Miami at the time, was that he felt perhaps the only advantage that came out slavery was selective breeding creating super athletes amongst the African-American population (I guess this was also a Chris Rock bit).

I wasn't about to contradict his hypothesis, but I thought I might bring it up given the context of this discussion.

And I think he’s right. It seems like this concept is always fought when it’s brought up, but it happened.

We’re only a few generations away from slavery (as many like to point out). So it makes sense that if you have several generations of males and females that reproduce after the super athletes came over, then the superior athletic genes would continue down the ladder.

Not everybody can be 6’8 260 with a shitload of quick twitch fibers after they develop and workout...that body started a few generations back.

 

[Sebastian]

And I think he’s right. It seems like this concept is always fought when it’s brought up, but it happened.

We’re only a few generations away from slavery (as many like to point out). So it makes sense that if you have several generations of males and females that reproduce after the super athletes came over, then the superior athletic genes would continue down the ladder.

Not everybody can be 6’8 260 with a shitload of quick twitch fibers after they develop and workout...that body started a few generations back.

It wasn't just American slaves, but is also pronounced amongst the Norse during the Viking age.

Before gun-powder, and in the absence of professional standing armies, individual prowess in battle often depended on the size and strength of the warrior. The larger and stronger the warrior, the more successful he was with spoils and thence buying wives who had more living children.

This magnified the tendency of Northern Europeans to be large and skeletal examinations of the Norse nobility revealed that many were as tall as people are today, and that meant they were a good half foot taller or more than the norm for the age in Europe.

 

[gourimoko]

Sure, we absolutely should be teaching these skills in high school.

But my point about leveling the playing field is the tools are there for anyone who is willing, and has the self discipline, to put in the work. Race (and gender) are irrelevant.

I didn't say it would be easy. It most certainly will be hard work.

But for some, regardless of innate ability, it can be exceptionally difficult. It's why I don't think there exists an even playing field between the U.S. and Asia..

 

[The Oi]

It wasn't just American slaves, but is also pronounced amongst the Norse during the Viking age.

Before gun-powder, and in the absence of professional standing armies, individual prowess in battle often depended on the size and strength of the warrior. The larger and stronger the warrior, the more successful he was with spoils and thence buying wives who had more living children.

This magnified the tendency of Northern Europeans to be large and skeletal examinations of the Norse nobility revealed that many were as tall as people are today, and that meant they were a good half foot taller or more than the norm for the age in Europe.

Was not aware of the history amongst the Norse.


So anyways...perhaps we’re answering our own questions on why powerlifting is rife with huge Viking blonde guys named Jan and American sports are full of black guys?

And it’s not racist to acknowledge the truth?

I feel like that prick @Whittaker would appreciate this one.

 

[gourimoko]

Was not aware of the history amongst the Norse.


So anyways...perhaps we’re answering our own questions on why powerlifting is rife with huge Viking blonde guys named Jan and American sports are full of black guys?

And it’s not racist to acknowledge the truth?

I feel like that prick @Whittaker would appreciate this one.

It's irrational to acknowledge something as "truth" based on validation of preconceived notions. Numerous studies have been done on this exact topic, and while finding differences across race; those differences are not sufficient enough to support the claims being made about sports being full of Black guys.

Honestly, the reason these conversations go off the rails is because people are unwilling to actually discuss these kinds of topics rationally and dispassionately -- nor are they willing to consider the possibility that they might be wrong about what they so firmly believe. (And that includes these naive notions about race)

This is why, regardless of how much scientific evidence there is to support the notion that race is a social construct and not a replacement for genetic ethnicity (not remotely), we still talk about "Whites" and "Blacks" as though they are discrete ethnic groups, when the notion itself makes no sense.

 

[David.]

Was not aware of the history amongst the Norse.


So anyways...perhaps we’re answering our own questions on why powerlifting is rife with huge Viking blonde guys named Jan and American sports are full of black guys?

And it’s not racist to acknowledge the truth?

I feel like that prick @Whittaker would appreciate this one.

I would be tempted to agree but the differences in height and weight arent significant.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I always figured kickers and punters were white as a sort of reverse affirmative action since black people get all the cool jobs in football.

 

[KI4MVP]

But for some, regardless of innate ability, it can be exceptionally difficult. It's why I don't think there exists an even playing field between the U.S. and Asia..

I wasn't really comparing to other countries.

I was simply referring to the opportunity being there for anyone. Too many people don't take advantage of it.

And yes it's difficult, the payoff is high,

 

[Sebastian]

It's irrational to acknowledge something as "truth" based on validation of preconceived notions. Numerous studies have been done on this exact topic, and while finding differences across race; those differences are not sufficient enough to support the claims being made about sports being full of Black guys.

Honestly, the reason these conversations go off the rails is because people are unwilling to actually discuss these kinds of topics rationally and dispassionately -- nor are they willing to consider the possibility that they might be wrong about what they so firmly believe. (And that includes these naive notions about race)

This is why, regardless of how much scientific evidence there is to support the notion that race is a social construct and not a replacement for genetic ethnicity (not remotely), we still talk about "Whites" and "Blacks" as though they are discrete ethnic groups, when the notion itself makes no sense.

White and black is a construct and a poor label (like Asian) when it comes to genetics. However, genetic ethnic groups do show certain pre-dispositions.

East Africans are very good at marathon running not only because of cultural influences, but because they have mutations on their red blood cells that give them superior endurance via enhanced oxygenation.

As Jigo pointed out, Nordic populations show a pre-disposition toward extreme upper-body strength. And, for some reason, 5% of the Nordic population has an immunity to HIV thanks to some random genetic mutation that has existed since at least the Viking age. In areas the Norse conquered, or at least visited in an intimate fashion, that genetic footprint still exists in smaller numbers (2% of people in the Orkney Islands are immune to HIV).

 

[Tlyons]

What do you think Trump conceded to Graham in exchange for this tweet?

A night in Ivanka

 

[Sebastian]

I always figured kickers and punters were white as a sort of reverse affirmative action since black people get all the cool jobs in football.

Punters and Kickers are the result of smart fathers realizing their kid isn't big or strong enough to play real football, admitting defeat, and had their kid start kicking.