The Walking Dead

[inliner311]

I agree. It was the equivalent of shooting some POW's while advancing on Berlin. But that still doesn't make you Hitler.



I still think that is pure evil -- he's just calculating/rational about it. If you don't give him half your stuff, he murders you. If he wants your wife, he'll threaten to kill you unless she submits. He actually enjoys beating people to death with a baseball bat.

There isn't a shred of gray in that.



Hadn't thought of that, but damn, that's a good guess.

I think they do a good job showing 3 different kinds of leaders. Maggie is now the idealistic one who believes there is still good in everyone. Rick believes that once someone has turn to being a savior there is no turning back. Negan believes once he breaks someone spirit that he can have them fall in line and do anything.

We see a clear difference between Maggie and some of the group with how they want to deal with the prisoners. The conversation about the blonde hair guy putting an arrow thru shoulder of woman and how Daryl doesn't trust him but she does, shows how the group is factioning on how they will ultimately deal with the Saviors.

 

[Chris]

I agree. It was the equivalent of shooting some POW's while advancing on Berlin. But that still doesn't make you Hitler.



I still think that is pure evil -- he's just calculating/rational about it. If you don't give him half your stuff, he murders you. If he wants your wife, he'll threaten to kill you unless she submits. He actually enjoys beating people to death with a baseball bat.

There isn't a shred of gray in that.



Hadn't thought of that, but damn, that's a good guess.

Doesn't he say that he doesn't enjoy this? (ie killing people)

It sure looked like he was, when he killed Glenn and Abraham, but...I mean...again, Rick and his group had been killing his men and making an idiot out of him for a bit at that point.

I don't know. I wouldn't call him any more pure evil than you'd call, say, Tywin Lannister pure evil. Maybe it's just poor characterization from TWD writers that his morals and actions don't seem to fall exactly in line. The truth is in real life most people aren't good or evil, they're shades of gray. I think both Negan and Rick fall in that category, with Rick being more towards the good than Negan, sure, but still does some reprehensible (even if understandable) things.

 

[pl4tinum]

The number of times Rick narrowly escapes death grows. The number of times someone lets Negan live when they should/could have easily killed him grows. The number of "crying over Carl" scenes continues to skyrocket. Tara and Darryl's disagreement about Dwight has just reached level 'stupid' as they have now completely switched sides of the argument from one another. The complete rendering of Michonne from a katana wielding fearless bad ass into a whimpering putz has been legendary. Jesus was introduced and then made a pansy and completely disappeared. Nobody of any importance ever dies, unlike in the old seasons when inevitably a main cast member would seem to die regularly. The zombies are like flies now, they are just batted away by the cast members like they're hardly there, or shoved out of the way. Unless of course they're attacking an enemy, when they pounce on them like cheetahs...

They've let this show go down the toilet so badly. Seems like 20+ episodes waiting for the Saviors and Rick's group to actually decide things. C'mon already.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Doesn't he say that he doesn't enjoy this? (ie killing people)

I think that was a reference to general killing -- not the obvious joy he takes with Lucille.

I don't know. I wouldn't call him any more pure evil than you'd call, say, Tywin Lannister pure evil. Maybe it's just poor characterization from TWD writers that his morals and actions don't seem to fall exactly in line. The truth is in real life most people aren't good or evil, they're shades of gray. I think both Negan and Rick fall in that category, with Rick being more towards the good than Negan, sure, but still does some reprehensible (even if understandable) things.

I dunno - I see a pretty bright line. Rick doesn't murder people just to take their stuff, and certainly would never set up an entire system that looked anything like what Negan had. To put it differently, if you leave Rick alone, and deal with him in peace, he'll do the same. That's how he dealt with the Hilltop and the Kingdom. He was trying to build something based on peaceful, voluntary cooperation. Negan wasn't.

 

[Chris]

Well, I never argued Negan was more moral than Rick, or that the former was necessarily good. Nor would I. Rick has certainly had his moments though...impossible to deny.

Eh, agree to disagree I suppose.

Let’s see how they end this storyline in the show.

 

[chrisrich91]

Disagree about the show improving the last few episodes. I still find it to be really poor and wasteful of the source material. I finally decided that upon the end of this season I will stop watching it live. I'll allow it to build up a season or two and see if it's worth a binge.

But consistently being disappointed week to week has worn me down.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I think they are just showing Negan is more of a three dimensional character than a lot of people would like to admit. I don't think he's good, but he isn't pure evil either.

He's not pure evil in the comics, either. He appears that way at first, but his arc is probably the best in the comics thus far. His stuff after the whole Saviors story ended is pure gold, and they actually give you some insight as to why he turned out the way he did once the world went to shit.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

He's not pure evil in the comics, either. He appears that way at first, but his arc is probably the best in the comics thus far. His stuff after the whole Saviors story ended is pure gold, and they actually give you some insight as to why he turned out the way he did once the world went to shit.

haven't read the comic, so I can't comment on them. However, with this Negan in the show...why he turned out the way he has may be interesting, but it doesn't lessen his guilt one iota. Whatever self-justification he has, the joyful murdering of people who don't want to give him half their food, and what he does to women, is morally inexcusable.

 

[Jack Brickman]

haven't read the comic, so I can't comment on them. However, with this Negan in the show...why he turned out the way he has may be interesting, but it doesn't lessen his guilt one iota. Whatever self-justification he has, the joyful murdering of people who don't want to give him half their food, and what he does to women, is morally inexcusable.

No doubt. The comics never really absolve him of what he's done, and most still hate him, but his character does evolve a bit in the comics after the whole Saviors arc. Of course, the show may just kill him off at the end of that arc and do nothing further with his character. I mean, if Carl of all people is dead (he's basically the main character in the comics at this point), anyone can die and the show clearly doesn't give much of a shit about following the source material.

Which I find kind of sad, because the comics are great.

 

[Chris]

No doubt. The comics never really absolve him of what he's done, and most still hate him, but his character does evolve a bit in the comics after the whole Saviors arc. Of course, the show may just kill him off at the end of that arc and do nothing further with his character. I mean, if Carl of all people is dead (he's basically the main character in the comics at this point), anyone can die and the show clearly doesn't give much of a shit about following the source material.

Which I find kind of sad, because the comics are great.

I honestly feel that the show may be going that route of just killing off Negan at the end. But there are a few small things that give me pause and think it will play out how it does in the comics.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I honestly feel that the show may be going that route of just killing off Negan at the end. But there are a few small things that give me pause and think it will play out how it does in the comics.

Negan's basically the best character in the comics now, or at least as of the last issue I read, which was like four to six months ago I think. I usually catch up in chunks rather than reading month to month, much like with most TV shows I prefer to just wait until a season is done to watch, outside of cultural phenomenon shows like Game of Thrones where it'd be impossible to not be spoiled while waiting.

 

[Chris]

haven't read the comic, so I can't comment on them. However, with this Negan in the show...why he turned out the way he has may be interesting, but it doesn't lessen his guilt one iota. Whatever self-justification he has, the joyful murdering of people who don't want to give him half their food, and what he does to women, is morally inexcusable.

I don't necessarily disagree but what is this joyful murdering of people? He has shown pretty great restraint in all honesty. If Simon is in charge Rick and everyone would be dead long ago as evidenced by the garbage people escapade. I guess I'm just trying to recall instances of this so I'm genuinely asking.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't necessarily disagree but what is this joyful murdering of people? He has shown pretty great restraint in all honesty. If Simon is in charge Rick and everyone would be dead long ago as evidenced by the garbage people escapade. I guess I'm just trying to recall instances of this so I'm genuinely asking.

Glenn? Abraham? Pretty much anyone he kills with Lucille?

 

[Jack Brickman]

Glenn? Abraham? Pretty.much anykne he kills with Lucille?

Pretty sure that, in the comics, he talks about getting a hard on from beating someone to death with his bat at least once. Not sure if that happens on the show or not, though, as I haven't watched it since the episode before he kills Glenn.

 

[Chris]

Glenn? Abraham? Pretty.much anykne he kills with Lucille?

Like I said, they were part of a group that was killing scores of his men. In the circumstances, I'd probably get satisfaction from killing my enemies.

We don't really see him kill many people with the bat, though. From what I've seen in the comic he does kind of come across as more of a psychopath than in the show where he seems to have these moments of lucidity every other episode. Hard when you have two different iterations of a story (ala GoT).