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The Windhorst Tracker - (Shaq for Ben and Sasha?)

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The deals with Sac and LAC would have left us weak amongst our bigs. Weaker than we are now. We couldn't give them what they needed to make the deal and been a stronger team. They needed to met our demands and they couldn't ...it obviosuly wasn't in the cards.

So, what other trades do you think he blew ? I'll try and enlighten you.

Hmm..

Okay.

1) Richard Jefferson: Michael Redd tears his ACL; Bogut is declared out for the season with a back injury. Richard Jefferson is obviously put on the market so that Sessions and Villanueva can resign in the offseason being that both will be offered large contracts from other teams and the Bucks had hoped to resign both. Prior to the Bucks playing through these serious injuries, Ferry should have picked up the phone and made it known that the Cavaliers were immediately interested in helping them dump this contract. The GM of one of the top 3 teams in the NBA should have thought that maybe the Bucks can retain their #8 seed, so I better jump now. Some info on that would be great.....

2) John Salmons and Brad Miller combo: You said more than once that we were trying to acquire Marcus Camby and John Salmons. I wonder what was going through Ferry's mind when the Clippers repeatedly told him to go **** himself and then Salmons and Miller got traded in a salary dump. Was Brad Miller really that much of a problem? Seriously? Because I just don't see it. Miller backs up Z perfectly and still leaves us with Varejao if we want to pick up the pace. Salmons is perhaps having a breakout season scoring 18+ ppg. According to your earlier post, Salmons wasn't the problem, and of course we'd start him. So if we wanted Salmons enough to tamper with our "chemistry" (by benching Delonte coming off an injury) why was taking on Miller's contract such a bad move? Especially considering he's a 2010 expiring and scoring 12 ppg. EDIT: Could you elaborate on what the Kings wanted from us, exactly?

3) Vince Carter: Multiple media sources, I'm sure you're aware, have reported that the Nets were desperately trying to ship Carter to Portland for LaFrentz and Outlaw but the deal fell through because Portland demanded the Nets ship a 1st round draft pick along with Carter. Now, once that deal fell through, or even before we got to that point, why didn't Ferry offer Wally+Sasha+1st or anything that didn't include a starter, Boobie, Delonte, or AV? From every report I've read, we weren't interested in Vince Carter. I find that fascinating considering we're rocking Wally Szczerbiak going into the playoffs. Nothing could be done with this, not a 3-way, nothing.. It was just impossible? Seriously? Or, and again I mean this not to be facetious but in all seriousness, was Danny Ferry hoping the Nets would get desperate and just take Wally and a pick?

4) Marcus Camby: I know Ferry was trying to get this done, that's not why I put him here. I listed Camby because at what point did Ferry realize this trade wasn't going to happen? I mean, I ask because it seems like Ferry was caught by the deadline at the last minute (hence, the nonsensical Shaq attempt). It just seems somewhat negligent that Ferry didn't have a plan B outside of Camby - and going back to the Salmons/Miller trade, it seems like he, again, got caught trying to do way too much. If we're talking risk/benefit, each one of those suppositions Ferry made is an individual risk (probability of failure) that has to be accounted for (and not via addition, lol). At what point did Ferry say to himself, "I'm depending on too many possibilities to break my way, the safest route (since I want John Salmons as my starting SG) is to just take on Brad Miller's expiring and trade it in the offseason (since I have this report in front of me suggesting that the upcoming summer will be filled with talent). This situation coupled with the Salmons trade (that we blew) just doesn't make sense to me at all. EDIT: Again, if you could be specific as to what the Clippers were asking for that was just too much, or that couldn't have been acquired in a 3-way trade?

5) Jason Richardson: When Phoenix was in destruction mode everyone suggested J-Rich would eventually be traded. I'd be interested at what point, if ever, did the Cavaliers inquire about J-Rich. What did we offer? Because if PHX was willing to part with Shaq for Wally+Sasha, then they obviously weren't planning on beating the Lakers let alone getting to the WCF. So... was J-Rich unavailable? I just find that hard to believe.

6) SHAQ: Danny Ferry doesn't want to mess with the chemistry of the team, but he wants to bench Big Z and bring in Shaq - or he thinks Shaq will play power forward (lol)? I mean, it's widely known we tried to acquire ****ing Shaq, man.. How ridiculous is that? If that was seriously thought out, then why didn't it happen before 2:00 PM today? I'm sure we could have worked it out over last week if that was the game plan? And there in lies the problem. Everything seems so haphazard, as if Ferry had all these grand schemes and when they started to collapse he desperately tried to do anything. When that didn't work he claims "we decided to stand pat." As if anyone is stupid enough to forget he was desperate to make a trade over the last 48 hours. Time ran out, that's all. Shaq??????????? Please explain WTF that is about? And did he really think PHX would take on Ben Wallace (who's not an expiring this year but next) over Wally Szczerbiak?

That's it off the top of my head... I know what happened with Jamison, so I didn't list it. Obviously Amare, and Butler weren't available for what we were offering. But the aforementioned players had all been shopped publicly and 3 of them weren't traded. It was widely known that we were 1 of 2 big time buyers (Portland - LaFrentz) this trade season, I just find it odd that we came up so short.

When you think about all the above options that we either passed on, waited too long and they floated away, or what have you, it just seems like this wasn't very well thought out. Especially when you consider the last minute attempt to acquire SHAQ. It's as if, "all this talk about chemistry be damned, Desperation-Attack-Go!" And once that failed, now it's "well, I planned it that way." Yeah, right.

And yes, I hear you when you say we had set and firm restrictions on who was and was not available for various players; however, if we were willing to risk our season on John Salmons as our starting shooting guard (who could be Larry Hughes all over again), or Shaq who would have totally changed our entire game (and benched Big Z) and perhaps ruined whatever chemistry we have, how can we say that not shifting our boundaries was the right thing to do? And what I mean by that is, if Anderson Varejao (who is now setup for a big payday from the Cavaliers) wasn't on the table for say Richard Jefferson and Charlie Villanueva (off the top of my head) then at what point did Ferry realize Wally Szczerbiak alone was not going to garner any significant improvements at any position for a championship caliber team? I mean, something has to be said for being able to make the big decisions, right?

Suffice it to say, I've gotten my point across and I hope respectfully, I'm not mad at you W&G - I know you're not responsible in anyway, shape, or form. But I think, for whatever reasons, someone is to blame for the Cavaliers not utilizing our expirings (especially Eric Snow) to try and make a deal, even perhaps a 3-way trade, come to fruition before the deadline. I really feel as though we missed a golden opportunity that may only come once more before LeBron decides what to do with his career.
 
You don't know what happened behind the scenes, and you're assuming way too much.
 
But I think, for whatever reasons, someone is to blame for the Cavaliers not utilizing our expirings (especially Eric Snow) to try and make a deal, even perhaps a 3-way trade, come to fruition before the deadline. I really feel as though we missed a golden opportunity that may only come once more before LeBron decides what to do with his career.

I'm not going to battle you on this because that would last until next trade deadline. But I just want to make a couple quick points -

-Some of the players that you wanted weren't really available
-Some of the players that were available had unreasonably high asking prices....that's also code for "they weren't really available".
-Some of the players that were available had GM's that did not want to deal with the Cavs unless we were grossly overpaying. Either they were in our conference/division and didn't want to help us build a dynasty OR they were still embarrassed about getting torched by us already and didn't want to do so again(one example: see Milwaukee)
-Mgmt met with the key players on the team recently to get their opinions about players and to give them an idea of what would need to be given up. They also explained that to get a star that JJ was the player being asked about in almost every scenario. This was met with great resistance, especially from Lebron. The players were insistant that they could win it all without a trade.
-Shaq was not some panic idea that came up in the last 2 hours...it was first dicussed a week ago.

I guess what I don't understand is why you keep on attempting to paint the Steven A Smith picture of us panicing and desperate...this just wasn't the case. Ferry was looking for an owner who was bleeding cash to make a panic move like we saw with the Kidd & Gasol trades....there just wasn't one availalbe. Mgmt was only going to make a move if they could get over on someone and that opportunity didn't present itself. Now that the deadline has passed they will likely make a move to get a big who gets bought out.

Lastly, you keep on asking how people could want a trade so bad before the deadline and then not be pissed with Ferrry when it didn't happen. I'll explain that with a quick story that I think is comparable. Right before the new year I had a salesman that was trying to get a large year end order. The customer was contemplating the purchase because there were tax advantages that were going to expire Dec 31st. My salesman tried like the devil to entice this guy into buying. In the end the customer said he was going to sit tight and not make a move. Was I dissappointed? Sure. Did my salesman "blow it"? No. Was I upset with him? No!!! He explored all avenues to get the deal to happen. If he had dropped his price enough to get the order we would have lost money. See, I was excited about the potential of it getting done, but I didn't lose any sleep over it when it didn't happen. I feel the same way today about the Cavs. There doesn't always have to be someone to "blame", sometimes it's just not meant to be...despite eveyone's best efforts.

Time to focus on adding a big who gets bought out...
 
I do see something that happened yesterday , that has happened before and W&G has mentioned it himself..it appears we wanted Salmons and Camby..what I would like to know is what these teams wanted in return..could Ferry just have targeted either alone or were these two players tied inthe same deal..meaning three-way?

It was reported when Ferry was hunting Scola/Bibby that something (we all know it was Sac's GM)got in the way, and left the Cavs empty handed..but there was no plan B(from what I learned) in the process to try and get him..we wanted a particular player in the draft..and someone snatched him up..
Is Ferry being outplayed(for lack of a better word)in certain situations whereas his best bet is to try and strike quicker?
Or is it just circumstance?
 
I'm curious as to whether the Camby+Salmons deal was just an offer the Cavs were going to propose, or if it was already on the table when Sacramento decided to go with the Bulls offer instead. W&G gave off the impression that the FO was rather dissapointed with the way this turned out...

If the latter was true, than one would think Camby was more available than the Clippers were leading other teams to believe.
 
I'm sure this may have been discussed, but a great point was just brought up to me by a co-worker.

Doesn't LeBron's purported reticence to move Hickson STRONGLY point to the FACT that he's sticking around past 2010? If all LeBron cared about was winning a championship in the next two years, wouldn't he have been ALL ABOUT moving a player that is 2 to 3 years from being a very strong contributor for a guy like Shaq, Camby, Bulter, Jamison, Jefferson who would push them over the top in the NEXT TWO YEARS? Then he gets his championship here and goes on to NYC, right?

To imply otherwise would be to think that LeBron is some sort of sadist and not only wants to leave Cleveland high and dry in two years but is deliberately WANTING Cleveland to NOT win a championship while he's still here.

I will freely admit that I may be reading too much into that, and if that's what everybody thinks, I blame my co-workers.
 
From Pluto. Sorry if this has been posted

The Suns were interested in Wally Szczerbiak's expiring contract, along with younger players such as J.J. Hickson, Pavlovic and a draft pick.
That's who the Suns wanted for Shaq. I'm glad we didnt, that's grossly overpaying. I didn't even want Shaq if it just took Wallace and Sasha.
 
A lot of people dis Ferry for considering Shaq, but I think Shaq would have been an asset. I think we will beat teh C's in any scenario, but Orlando has me worried since we don't have a direct answer for Dwight Howard. While Shaq may be slow, he is still a force in the paint on both ends. Even if we were on the court while Lebron was resting, he wiould get a half dozen fouls called on the opposition bigs in every game.

At the end of the day this would have been a good enough move to bring a ring, which remains the goal. I still think we can win it, but there is still a probably in there somewhere.
 
I'm not going to battle you on this because that would last until next trade deadline. But I just want to make a couple quick points -

-Some of the players that you wanted weren't really available

Being that the trade deadline is over, I'd really like to know who was unavailable from the list I posted. As far as I know, all were shopped publicly. I know I might not ever find that out, however....

-Some of the players that were available had unreasonably high asking prices....that's also code for "they weren't really available".

I can totally understand that.. But who were they? Jason Richardson had an exceptionally high price tag? I can see maybe RJ, but why didn't we at least try to work on that deal a little sooner, or try to add Varejao and get another big back perhaps (maybe Villanueva, especially considering they may not be able to resign both him and Sessions in the offseason).

-Some of the players that were available had GM's that did not want to deal with the Cavs unless we were grossly overpaying. Either they were in our conference/division and didn't want to help us build a dynasty OR they were still embarrassed about getting torched by us already and didn't want to do so again(one example: see Milwaukee)

I can totally see that... I figured that may have been a problem.

-Mgmt met with the key players on the team recently to get their opinions about players and to give them an idea of what would need to be given up. They also explained that to get a star that JJ was the player being asked about in almost every scenario. This was met with great resistance, especially from Lebron. The players were insistant that they could win it all without a trade.

That's a great help Maximus.. I didn't know that, nor would I have expected it.

-Shaq was not some panic idea that came up in the last 2 hours...it was first dicussed a week ago.

I find that odd. How would that have worked? Would Big Z ride the pine? Or would we try and rotate them as starters depending on the matchup?

I guess what I don't understand is why you keep on attempting to paint the Steven A Smith picture of us panicing and desperate...this just wasn't the case.

Because unlike you and W&G, all I have to go off of is media reports. At first I was incensed by the notion like everyone else. But the last minute attempt at Shaq (of all people) and the failure to get Brad Miller/Salmons because of a hope to get Camby, really demonstrated a lack of either understanding of the other franchises positions or a real sense of "this is what I want, and I'm not willing to accept anything less." Either way, I just find it hard to believe that we were looking at acquiring John Salmons, who would need to start at the 2 to be effective, but we weren't willing to take on Brad Miller's contract - which would seem to be a prerequisite to even get Sacramento to sit at the table, no? That's why it felt like desperation to me, just to clarify.

Ferry was looking for an owner who was bleeding cash to make a panic move like we saw with the Kidd & Gasol trades....there just wasn't one availalbe. Mgmt was only going to make a move if they could get over on someone and that opportunity didn't present itself. Now that the deadline has passed they will likely make a move to get a big who gets bought out.

That's interesting. Is that because of chemistry, or because of we were looking to maximize our tradeable asset in Wally Szczerbiak? Because if it was chemistry, how would benching Delonte effect chemistry (Camby/Salmons)? And if it was maximizing assets, how did Ferry plan to get Camby/Salmons done? Who were we looking to trade to get Marcus Camby from the Clippers and John Salmons from Sacramento without taking on Brad Miller or finding a team willing to do so? Wouldn't AV need to be involved in a trade like that, or at least someone with talent? You see where I'm coming from?? I guess I just don't like not having all the info, but I do appreciate you answering my post!

Lastly, you keep on asking how people could want a trade so bad before the deadline and then not be pissed with Ferrry when it didn't happen. I'll explain that with a quick story that I think is comparable. Right before the new year I had a salesman that was trying to get a large year end order. The customer was contemplating the purchase because there were tax advantages that were going to expire Dec 31st. My salesman tried like the devil to entice this guy into buying. In the end the customer said he was going to sit tight and not make a move. Was I dissappointed? Sure. Did my salesman "blow it"? No. Was I upset with him? No!!! He explored all avenues to get the deal to happen. If he had dropped his price enough to get the order we would have lost money. See, I was excited about the potential of it getting done, but I didn't lose any sleep over it when it didn't happen. I feel the same way today about the Cavs. There doesn't always have to be someone to "blame", sometimes it's just not meant to be...despite eveyone's best efforts.

If that's what happened, then I agree completely. If Ferry and the team really felt as though they would only make a deal if it didn't compromise our core pieces (unless we're talking Amare/Bosh) then I accept that explanation. My only problem was that, imo, the only way to do that is to find someone willing to take only Wally+Sasha+filler and picks -- that seemed like Vince Carter/Richard Jefferson to me (LaFrentz+Outlaw MINUS the Nets 1st rounder).. I know it's been reported that Ferry absolutely didn't want Carter, but I guess I don't understand why he'd want John Salmons who really could be Larry Hughes all over again over Vince Carter, a proven all-star shooting guard..

But alas.. I'm not really that mad anymore. Confused? Hell yea.. But I think we'll be okay. I just hate LeBron being responsible for 60%+ of the Cavaliers offense and seeing him get blamed for missing 1 shot at the end of a game when almost no one else scored in double digits.

Time to focus on adding a big who gets bought out...

Damn straight. Thanks, bro.
 
You don't know what happened behind the scenes, and you're assuming way too much.

Re-read my post man, I'm asking questions and going off media reports the same as anyone else. Isn't that all we can do? None of us were in the room so we'd never really know what happened. All we can do is weigh one piece of information against another hoping to find inconsistencies or corroborations.
 
Shaq WANTED to go to CLEVELAND??

Whether it's the mere fact that his name was in deadline-day trade talks or that he wanted his trade to Cleveland to go through and it didn't, this much we know: Shaquille O'Neal is not happy.

Shaq has launched one of his famed media strikes in the wake of the talks between the Suns and the Cavs, which ultimately did not deliver an O'Neal deal Thursday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090221-22
 
Which is why I don't think we've heard the last of Shaq to Cleveland. The impression I get is that the Cavs still like the idea.

Also this from that same Stein article, makes me wonder if they may re-open these discussions in the off season. Would Shaq be able to contribute again next season though?
 
Well he should have demanded a trade to CLE or made the suns accept our offer...But is lebron really mad?? He and the team thought they should stand pat?
 

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