Theoretically Ante Zizic

[Nathan S]

It's not necessarily that the league is trending away from 7-footers. It's that the league is trending away from slow-footed 7-footers that can't stretch the floor. You can go through every team's lineup and see the trend.

Brooklyn - athletic shot blocker
Boston - they've got Baynes out there taking 3s
Philly - Embiid takes threes + he's a freak
Toronto - Valanciunas now takes 3s, but pushed to bench
New York - KP

Milwaukee - Brook takes threes now
Indy - Turner takes 3s
Detroit - athletic shot blocker
Chicago - I don't know what they're doing here

Charlotte - one year of Dwight was enough
Orlando - Bamba and Vuc both stretch the floor
Atlanta- I guess Len?
Miami - Whiteside holding it down... for now
Washington - another Dwight experiment

Utah - athletic shot blocker
Denver - Jokic is a freak + a shooter
OKC - athletic shot blocker
Portland - they've got Nurkic shooting 3s
Minnesota- KAT

LAC - looks like Gortat
GS - Boogie, if healthy, is a freak + shooter
Sacramento - no clue
Phoenix - Ayton will probably stretch before too long
LAL - JaVale (lol) but experimenting with super small ball

Houston - athletic shot blocker
Dallas - athletic shot blocker
San Antonio - no clue
Memphis - Marc shoots
NOP - AD


Basically, if you're a plodder, you have to shoot threes to survive.

Mostly agree...more generally, players of all sizes are expected to be more skilled and more athletic than they were in the past, but size itself isn't going out of style. Is Zizic skilled and athletic enough to hang with today's top centers? I wouldn't count on it, but we'll never know if we don't try.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

It's not necessarily that the league is trending away from 7-footers. It's that the league is trending away from slow-footed 7-footers that can't stretch the floor. You can go through every team's lineup and see the trend.

Brooklyn - athletic shot blocker
Boston - they've got Baynes out there taking 3s
Philly - Embiid takes threes + he's a freak
Toronto - Valanciunas now takes 3s, but pushed to bench
New York - KP

Milwaukee - Brook takes threes now
Indy - Turner takes 3s
Detroit - athletic shot blocker
Chicago - I don't know what they're doing here

Charlotte - one year of Dwight was enough
Orlando - Bamba and Vuc both stretch the floor
Atlanta- I guess Len?
Miami - Whiteside holding it down... for now
Washington - another Dwight experiment

Utah - athletic shot blocker
Denver - Jokic is a freak + a shooter
OKC - athletic shot blocker
Portland - they've got Nurkic shooting 3s
Minnesota- KAT

LAC - looks like Gortat
GS - Boogie, if healthy, is a freak + shooter
Sacramento - no clue
Phoenix - Ayton will probably stretch before too long
LAL - JaVale (lol) but experimenting with super small ball

Houston - athletic shot blocker
Dallas - athletic shot blocker
San Antonio - no clue
Memphis - Marc shoots
NOP - AD


Basically, if you're a plodder, you have to shoot threes to survive.

You are missing one important thing: ability to throw a basketball from beyond the 3pt line doesn't equate to being a good shooter or automatically making the offense mroe efficient than an offense without a 5 that can "shoot" a 3.

I don't like your list czvo.I think it's inaccurate. A lot of players on your list have other weaknesses and the advantage that you listed isn't all that great unless they can somehow show me a proof that shows their offense got much better with them shooting 3's. A big that can knock down wide open 3's from the corners is a great weapon, but mindlessly taking 3's above the break break is -EV...especially if he can't/unwilling to attack off the dribble and either finish or facilitate.

Tons of bad 3pt shooters on your list, and I guarantee you that if Zizic is developed right he will be taking corner 3's in no time. His FT form and percentage is elite for a big.

Now as far as the weaknesses of other centers on this list. You got Jarret Allen here. The guy has no offensive game other than being a roller and a lob target, is a terrible rebounder and gets dominated by stronger centers. Kanter(a plodding big) just dominated his ass. There is a much bigger chance Allen never fixes his glaring holes than Ante not being able to develop a shot(though again, I don't think it's a neccesity).

The ability now to attack from the post because of this freedom of movement is absolutely enormous for efficient and aggressive centers like Zizic. Players that can finish like that and shoot FTs at such a high percentage is a gift. You can't foul him because he will probably convert both FTs, so what can you do to stop him? double him? that's what Zizic will need to work on..passing. And I guarantee you that whatever those stretch 5's of you are doing, Zizic's .PPP will be higher if he gets a chance and be featured in the offense..especially in the playoffs when the game slows down.

Now you mentioned Dwight. Why isn't he considered an atheltic shot blocker? he is one. The reason he didn't work out was because he was an inefficient post player and a terrible FT shooter and he demanded a lot of touches. Zizic is great at both.

Anyways, there is no reason to not play Zizic. And I guarantee you that he has what it takes to shoot 3's, because it looks like you put it as a requirement, so rest assured.

 

[Mavaliersfan]

We have a logjam of bigs. With Dekker's emergence, I feel as though Nance is becoming more and more expendable. Where does his value lie outside of hustle plays and catching lobs?... I don't like him as our back-up center. He just doesn't have the size to bang with 5's on a nightly basis.

With that said, I like what I'm seeing out of Dekker. He has great footspeed and will work well with our switching scheme. He also appears to be able to create his own offense. I'd rather roll with him as the back-up 4, as opposed to giving Nance spot minutes there. Nance is more or less a finisher, who arguably fit better with LBJ.

Also, shedding Nance will open up more rotation minutes for Zizic.

 

[czvo]

You are missing one important thing: ability to throw a basketball from beyond the 3pt line doesn't equate to being a good shooter or automatically making the offense mroe efficient than an offense without a 5 that can "shoot" a 3.

I don't like your list czvo.I think it's inaccurate. A lot of players on your list have other weaknesses and the advantage that you listed isn't all that great unless they can somehow show me a proof that shows their offense got much better with them shooting 3's. A big that can knock down wide open 3's from the corners is a great weapon, but mindlessly taking 3's above the break break is -EV...especially if he can't/unwilling to attack off the dribble and either finish or facilitate.

Tons of bad 3pt shooters on your list, and I guarantee you that if Zizic is developed right he will be taking corner 3's in no time. His FT form and percentage is elite for a big.

Now as far as the weaknesses of other centers on this list. You got Jarret Allen here. The guy has no offensive game other than being a roller and a lob target, is a terrible rebounder and gets dominated by stronger centers. Kanter(a plodding big) just dominated his ass. There is a much bigger chance Allen never fixes his glaring holes than Ante not being able to develop a shot(though again, I don't think it's a neccesity).

The ability now to attack from the post because of this freedom of movement is absolutely enormous for efficient and aggressive centers like Zizic. Players that can finish like that and shoot FTs at such a high percentage is a gift. You can't foul him because he will probably convert both FTs, so what can you do to stop him? double him? that's what Zizic will need to work on..passing. And I guarantee you that whatever those stretch 5's of you are doing, Zizic's .PPP will be higher if he gets a chance and be featured in the offense..especially in the playoffs when the game slows down.

Now you mentioned Dwight. Why isn't he considered an atheltic shot blocker? he is one. The reason he didn't work out was because he was an inefficient post player and a terrible FT shooter and he demanded a lot of touches. Zizic is great at both.

Anyways, there is no reason to not play Zizic. And I guarantee you that he has what it takes to shoot 3's, because it looks like you put it as a requirement, so rest assured.

I really didn't think my point was rocket science. The bigs you see teams start are either athletic freaks or all-around players. Plodders are staying relevant by taking threes. It's not even about making them. It's about being a threat.

My point was never about ante being able to shoot. It was a look at the state of the position across the league. You can dislike the list all you want, doesn't make the observations incorrect.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I really didn't think my point was rocket science. The bigs you see teams start are either athletic freaks or all-around players. Plodders are staying relevant by taking threes. It's not even about making them. It's about being a threat.

My point was never about ante being able to shoot. It was a look at the state of the position across the league. You can dislike the list all you want, doesn't make the observations incorrect.

And I said that the fact that they throw balls from behind the 3pt line does not make them all-around players. Some of them had to develop somewhat and become a threat from there because 1)they suck at screening 2)they are not as efficient from the floor/close range 3)they are not very good rebounders

And through the years I have gathered that NBA front offices are not all that smart and they really don't know everything. It's a trend after all, and if a guy can be effective and impactful on the floor, he has to play. Bottomline.

 

[czvo]

And I said that the fact that they throw balls from behind the 3pt line does not make them all-around players. Some of them had to develop somewhat and become a threat from there because 1)they suck at screening 2)they are not as efficient from the floor/close range 3)they are not very good rebounders

And through the years I have gathered that NBA front offices are not all that smart and they really don't know everything. It's a trend after all, and if a guy can be effective and impactful on the floor, he has to play. Bottomline.

Never said it did.

 

[Douglar]

Anyways, there is no reason to not play Zizic. And I guarantee you that he has what it takes to shoot 3's, because it looks like you put it as a requirement, so rest assured.

Here's some reasons why the Cavs don't have to play Zizic major minutes in November & December

1) There's a bunch of guys in front of him on the depth chart with proven track records who have earned their spots. While Zizic has some intriguing talent, he's not clearly better player yet. The kid has to earn it.
2) I think it is pretty clear that Zizic isn't an ideal paring with the guys ahead of him on the depth chart, so it's hard to piece him into the rotation:

Pairing Zizic with Tristan or Nance creates spacing issues.
Zizic + Love isn't available because most of Love's minutes will be with Tristan & Nance
Zizic + Frye has too many slow feet on defense​

3) Cavs might be happy to trade some of the vets ahead of Zizic to open a spot in the rotation, but it's going to be hard to get value if the Cavs don't play those guys this year.
4) Zizic is on a long contract, so there's no rush to push him out on the floor for November minutes. Zizic will likely get minutes before the season is over because of trades or injury.

 

[inliner311]

We have a logjam of bigs. With Dekker's emergence, I feel as though Nance is becoming more and more expendable. Where does his value lie outside of hustle plays and catching lobs?... I don't like him as our back-up center. He just doesn't have the size to bang with 5's on a nightly basis.

With that said, I like what I'm seeing out of Dekker. He has great footspeed and will work well with our switching scheme. He also appears to be able to create his own offense. I'd rather roll with him as the back-up 4, as opposed to giving Nance spot minutes there. Nance is more or less a finisher, who arguably fit better with LBJ.

Also, shedding Nance will open up more rotation minutes for Zizic.

I think Dekker will get his shot to prove himself early and often in the beginning of the season. He will be a restricted free agent next summer so his value will be as a long term piece for the Cavs or trade filler, really nothing in-between. I just can't see him playing well enough that a team will come calling for him since he played so poorly for the clippers. He just doesn't have the track record to say what type of player he actually is on a new team.

Dekker's contract is basically the only low salary contract we have as trade filler till the guys we signed this summer are available for trade on December 15th. I think the front office will want to know what they have in him as early as possible so he isn't a sticking point for a trade.

I think the front office will want a clear picture of who they want on this team going forward at the trade deadline. I don't think playing time before that point will really show us who is part of this teams future.

 

[rastamon87]

Maybe it's time to change the title of the thread to "Ante Zizic: Not on the Cavaliers Plan" or something like that... Still getting garbage minutes on a preseason game with a lots of the regular rotation guys not playing... He is gonna be glued to the bench once the season starts...

 

[TitleTown]

And through the years I have gathered that NBA front offices are not all that smart and they really don't know everything.

They may not know "everything," but they have more experience and better tools for making decisions than we do. And they definitely have WAY more information than we do.

We don't actually know which players are available for trades or not most of the time. We don't know how players look in practice or how hard they work on a day-to-day basis. We don't know how an owner has placed limits on various decisions to make a GM's job even more difficult. And we certainly don't have a clue about what is involved in running an NBA franchise. You many think you know, but if you've never actually done it then you're just guessing.

I hate it when fans think they're smarter than NBA front offices. If you are so good at this, then why don't you work for an NBA team or for a professional team overseas?

 

[Cavatt]

They may not know "everything," but they have more experience and better tools for making decisions than we do. And they definitely have WAY more information than we do.

We don't actually know which players are available for trades or not most of the time. We don't know how players look in practice or how hard they work on a day-to-day basis. We don't know how an owner has placed limits on various decisions to make a GM's job even more difficult. And we certainly don't have a clue about what is involved in running an NBA franchise. You many think you know, but if you've never actually done it then you're just guessing.

I hate it when fans think they're smarter than NBA front offices. If you are so good at this, then why don't you work for an NBA team or for a professional team overseas?

They don't list jobs on Craigslist. A lot of people want that job, but the pool they pull from is pretty small.

 

[benchplayer]

We have a logjam of bigs. With Dekker's emergence, I feel as though Nance is becoming more and more expendable. Where does his value lie outside of hustle plays and catching lobs?... I don't like him as our back-up center. He just doesn't have the size to bang with 5's on a nightly basis.

With that said, I like what I'm seeing out of Dekker. He has great footspeed and will work well with our switching scheme. He also appears to be able to create his own offense. I'd rather roll with him as the back-up 4, as opposed to giving Nance spot minutes there. Nance is more or less a finisher, who arguably fit better with LBJ.

Also, shedding Nance will open up more rotation minutes for Zizic.

If anybody is expendable its T.T, I'd go 4. Love/dekker 5. Nance/zizic

 

[TitleTown]

They don't list jobs on Craigslist. A lot of people want that job, but the pool they pull from is pretty small.

It's that way with any highly sought after job. They do that to insure that they're not inundated with 10000 applications. If a motivated and qualified person wants an NBA job, they'll find a way.

And that's my point. Just because it doesnt make sense to us from the outside, doesn't mean that they don't have smart people working for them. All NBA teams have smart people who are good at what they do. Unfortunately, complex organizations often look less efficient or dumb from the outside because we analyze their decisions with incomplete information.

We only see the end result. We rarely see the full process that led to the various decisions that franchises make. So we have no real clue what constraints or issues may have forced a decision in a particular direction.

There's nothing wrong with questioning decisions made by NBA franchises, but to assume that they're mostly dumb or uninformed would be a poor conclusion based on limited informaton from suspect media sources, like ESPN.

 

[Green Lantern]

They may not know "everything," but they have more experience and better tools for making decisions than we do. And they definitely have WAY more information than we do.

We don't actually know which players are available for trades or not most of the time. We don't know how players look in practice or how hard they work on a day-to-day basis. We don't know how an owner has placed limits on various decisions to make a GM's job even more difficult. And we certainly don't have a clue about what is involved in running an NBA franchise. You many think you know, but if you've never actually done it then you're just guessing.

I hate it when fans think they're smarter than NBA front offices. If you are so good at this, then why don't you work for an NBA team or for a professional team overseas?

I was smarter than Jim Paxton. And I've never slept at a Holiday Inn.

 

[avs2000]

If anybody is expendable its T.T, I'd go 4. Love/dekker 5. Nance/zizic

TT needs to go. There is no upside to his game. Zizic is just smooth. Got two nice baseline shots last night with a form tt can only dream about. I do get the points that no one will take on tt contract maybe at the break and he needs to play to showcase him but damn ante needs to play