Theoretically Ante Zizic

[kookoo]

To add, Pops does not play rookies like we think. He plays them maybe 40 games a year and allot of that is in junk time. Danny Green for example didnt become what he is today until his 3rd year. In fact, the cavs played him more as a rookie than Pops did in his 2nd year. In year 3 he got series about his career and Green became a very good role player.

Pops is a good coach. He plays guys when they're ready regardless if status. If he had Zizic, I'm certain he'd get minutes. I'd say he has more upside than most bigs San Antonio has drafted. Definitely more than Splitter. Kawhi started more than half the games he played while being drafted outside of the lottery on a team with RJ and SJax as their 3s. And Zizic if he was drafted this season would easily be a lottery pick.

Ante needs the chance to grow here I think. And we have a gaping hole at the center position against teams with big 5s...

 

[amurderofcrows]

Poached and Quoted.
Having a big man like Zizic, at his age, with his ability, locked in on a rookie deal is incredibly valuable.

 

[Cavatt]

It's still funny to me how people aren't willing to give him a chance just because he's a rookie and is more of a conventional center...

The kid has a high motor, gritty mentality and touch around the rim/from 15 feet out. Just because he's about 7 ft tall, doesn't mean he shouldn't be starting. Having him as the starting 5 instead of Love gives us the jump ball advantage, it allows us to play inside/outside, gives us rim protection, allows us to play a real zone (which will especially be helpful when IT is back), helps us get more boards on both ends, lets us be offensively a threat from all 5 positions without giving up size... And if he's not working out, we can fall back to Love at the 5. Yes, offensively Love as the 5 will be great, but we can have stretches of that. All game long, it's not going to work.

From the rotations on Wednesday, it seemed like Zizic isn't even going to be part of the lineup most nights. Didn't get squat in the first half and was playing with a Jose and Felder lead squad in the second half. That speaks volumes on Lue's mentality.

He might not work against Golden State, but Love shouldn't be starting 5 because that would wear on his body so much more than being the 4. Most teams still have a conventional 5 who can take advantage of size differences. And Love looks tiny out there. Imagine Drummond backing Love up 5 possessions straight... It just seems like a recipe for disaster. And while he would get a lot of open shots on offense, it's not worth the negative effects it might have on the defensive end.

He is a conventional center in his size, but he seems to have really good feet. I think in that respect the Stephen Adams comparisons are warranted. Adams can stay on the floor with faster guys. I saw Ante guarding guards during the scrimmage and the first game, and he kept up pretty well. I think he may be able to stay on the floor against smaller lineups. We still have a lot to learn, but I am more encouraged than I have been in the past over big guys we have brought in. Ante doesn't have a really obvious weakness. That is awesome. You see maturity in his game like Harangody said as well.

 

[cavsfever]

To add, Pops does not play rookies like we think. He plays them maybe 40 games a year and allot of that is in junk time. Danny Green for example didnt become what he is today until his 3rd year. In fact, the cavs played him more as a rookie than Pops did in his 2nd year. In year 3 he got series about his career and Green became a very good role player.

Pop is totally willing to play rookies when it makes sense to do so. Replicating from my post earlier in this thread:

over the past 10 years --

Kawhi Leonard averaged 24 MPG in 64 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Gary Neal averaged 21 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
DeJuan Blair averaged 18 MPG in 82 games for the Spurs in his rookie season.
George Hill averaged 16.5 MPG in 77 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Beno Udrih averaged 14.4 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Nando de Colo averaged 12.8 MPG in 72 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Tiago Splitter averaged 12.3 MPG in 60 games for the Spurs in his rookie season

Of course Kawhi is Kawhi, but all the others are basically just role players Pop found a use for.

 

[Lee]

Pop is totally willing to play rookies when it makes sense to do so. Replicating from my post earlier in this thread:

over the past 10 years --

Kawhi Leonard averaged 24 MPG in 64 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Gary Neal averaged 21 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
DeJuan Blair averaged 18 MPG in 82 games for the Spurs in his rookie season.
George Hill averaged 16.5 MPG in 77 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Beno Udrih averaged 14.4 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Nando de Colo averaged 12.8 MPG in 72 games for the Spurs in his rookie season
Tiago Splitter averaged 12.3 MPG in 60 games for the Spurs in his rookie season

Of course Kawhi is Kawhi, but all the others are basically just role players Pop found a use for.

This is over 20 years.

Kawhi earned, that is like playing Durant or Lebron as a rookie.

Allot of those come from some bad or thin teams Pop had in non championship years.

But, Splitter is a great example. The team was thin at center, but he did get 12 mins a game. If Zizic could get 10 mins over 50 games or so that would be awesome. Splitter did come over with more experience and more credentials, but I think Zizic is the better player from what I saw.

 

[MirORich]

Pop is totally willing to play rookies when it makes sense to do so. Replicating from my post earlier in this thread:

over the past 10 years --

Kawhi Leonard averaged 24 MPG in 64 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(Top 15 pick, 3 years in college, trade key piece, George Hill to get him)

Gary Neal averaged 21 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(Was 26, had played many years in D League, Europe)

DeJuan Blair averaged 18 MPG in 82 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(2009)
George Hill averaged 16.5 MPG in 77 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(2009, played 4 years of college)

Beno Udrih averaged 14.4 MPG in 80 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(2004)
Nando de Colo averaged 12.8 MPG in 72 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(25 year old rookie, had starred several years in international play)
Tiago Splitter averaged 12.3 MPG in 60 games for the Spurs in his rookie season(26 year old rookie, had starred for several years in international play)

Of course Kawhi is Kawhi, but all the others are basically just role players Pop found a use for.

And my posts in this thread shows that since 2011, with the notable exception of Kawhi, the vast majority of Pops rookies barely play in their first season. Regardless of what the Cavs do with Ante/Cedi, lets stop propagating a myth about Pop to critique what we think Lue will do. There is simply little evidence of Pop giving heavy minutes to 20 and 21 year old rookies in the past evidence. His norm is to get them into 20-40 games during blowouts and rest games, let them develop for a year or two in the G-League, or both:

-Danny Green played just 8 games in his first year with the Spurs
-Jonathan Simmons played for 2 seasons in the Spurs D-Leage team before Pop gave him a shot in 2015
-Kyle Anderson played in just 33 games in his rookie season in SAS
-DeJounte Murray played in 38 games his rookie year
-Patty Mills played just 16 games his first year with the Spurs(3rd in NBA
-Davis Bertans played 12 mpg as a 24 year old rookie last year, but had already played several years in professional Euro leagues
-Corey Joseph played just 29 games in 2011 as a Spurs rookie and then just 28 in his second year.

 

[Cavatt]

This is over 20 years.

Kawhi earned, that is like playing Durant or Lebron as a rookie.

Allot of those come from some bad or thin teams Pop had in non championship years.

But, Splitter is a great example. The team was thin at center, but he did get 12 mins a game. If Zizic could get 10 mins over 50 games or so that would be awesome. Splitter did come over with more experience and more credentials, but I think Zizic is the better player from what I saw.

Wasn't Splitter old already by the time he was a rook? I remember him always making those lists of Euro players that people are dying to get in the NBA. I was wondering about Dejuan Blair as he was held up as what we should be going after in the 2nd round. He is out of the league. Very weird because he had been killing it.

 

[MirORich]

This is over 20 years.

Kawhi earned, that is like playing Durant or Lebron as a rookie.

Allot of those come from some bad or thin teams Pop had in non championship years.

But, Splitter is a great example. The team was thin at center, but he did get 12 mins a game. If Zizic could get 10 mins over 50 games or so that would be awesome. Splitter did come over with more experience and more credentials, but I think Zizic is the better player from what I saw.

Splitter was 26 and had starred in EuroLeague and international play for many years. Ante is 6 years younger(20). Not saying that alone means he shouldn't play, but the two are actually not that comparable. Splitter also came over in an era where small ball was just in it's infancy, almost all teams were playing true centers and a good amount of teams where still playing traditional bodied PFs

 

[ACisKING]

When people state that Zizic should be the backup center or get significant minutes then what they are really saying is one of three things: 1) Love should not start at center and Zizic should backup Tristan; 2) Love should not start at center and Zizic should be the starting center; or 3) Love should start at center and Zizic is better than Tristan so should get more minutes than Tristan as the backup center.

I don't agree with any of those positions. Love at center is essential to the Cavs as long as they have either Rose or Wade starting. There just isn't enough space around LeBron otherwise. Zizic can hit a mid range jumpshot but he isn't going to provide the spacing the Cavs offense needs to flourish against opposing starting lineups. Nor is there any evidence that Zizic is a good enough to start in the NBA in his rookie season, much less on a team with championship aspirations. And I get that hating on Tristan is popular on this forum, but it is highly unlikely that Zizic is better than Tristan right now. Tristan off the bench is a terrifying prospect for the NBA - he absolutely has to be gameplanned for.

 

[TyGuy]

When people state that Zizic should be the backup center or get significant minutes then what they are really saying is one of three things: 1) Love should not start at center and Zizic should backup Tristan; 2) Love should not start at center and Zizic should be the starting center; or 3) Love should start at center and Zizic is better than Tristan so should get more minutes than Tristan as the backup center. I don't agree with any of those positions. Love at center is essential to the Cavs as long as they have either Rose or Wade starting. There just isn't enough space around LeBron otherwise. Zizic can hit a mid range jumpshot but he isn't going to provide the spacing the Cavs offense needs to flourish against opposing starting lineups. Nor is there any evidence that Zizic is a good enough to start in the NBA in his rookie season, much less on a team with championship aspirations. And I get that hating on Tristan is popular on this forum, but it is highly unlikely that Zizic is better than Tristan right now. Tristan off the bench is a terrifying prospect for the NBA - he absolutely has to be gameplanned for.

Zizic should get spot minutes here and there when we rest one of our bigs or if there is a blowout. He shouldn't be ahead of anybody in the rotation, and I like what i'm seeing from Zizic.

 

[Cavatt]

When people state that Zizic should be the backup center or get significant minutes then what they are really saying is one of three things: 1) Love should not start at center and Zizic should backup Tristan; 2) Love should not start at center and Zizic should be the starting center; or 3) Love should start at center and Zizic is better than Tristan so should get more minutes than Tristan as the backup center. I don't agree with any of those positions. Love at center is essential to the Cavs as long as they have either Rose or Wade starting. There just isn't enough space around LeBron otherwise. Zizic can hit a mid range jumpshot but he isn't going to provide the spacing the Cavs offense needs to flourish against opposing starting lineups. Nor is there any evidence that Zizic is a good enough to start in the NBA in his rookie season, much less on a team with championship aspirations. And I get that hating on Tristan is popular on this forum, but it is highly unlikely that Zizic is better than Tristan right now. Tristan off the bench is a terrifying prospect for the NBA - he absolutely has to be gameplanned for.

Totally. I th9ink a lot of us like his potential, and it is easy to get ahead of yourself this way. Hopefully he plays a lot of blowout minutes with Calderon. He might be useful guarding some bigger guys, but even Tristan who was a decent defender as a rookie, really got torn up by wiley vets until his 2nd year. Ante would have to have superstar potential almost to make an impact right away.

 

[Lee]

Splitter was 26 and had starred in EuroLeague and international play for many years. Ante is 6 years younger(20). Not saying that alone means he shouldn't play, but the two are actually not that comparable. Splitter also came over in an era where small ball was just in it's infancy, almost all teams were playing true centers and a good amount of teams where still playing traditional bodied PFs

100% agree, more of my point. Zizic is only a center, that means he will need to get minutes over Love and TT. We should be deep enough the Frye at center experiment is over.

But still tough to see Zizic get more than 5-10 mins a game if at all.

 

[cavsfever]

This is over 20 years.

Kawhi earned, that is like playing Durant or Lebron as a rookie.

Allot of those come from some bad or thin teams Pop had in non championship years.

But, Splitter is a great example. The team was thin at center, but he did get 12 mins a game. If Zizic could get 10 mins over 50 games or so that would be awesome. Splitter did come over with more experience and more credentials, but I think Zizic is the better player from what I saw.

I shouldn't have included Beno Udrih in there, he's the only player who isn't from the last 9 years. If you like, drop him and put in Davis Bertans who just last year played in 67 games for over 12 MPG in his rookie year, and you have seven rookies playing over 10 MPG for most of the season over the last 9 Spurs seasons.

And yes Kawhi counts, he was a 15 pick, no one knew how good he would be, Pop gave him the chance to show it.

Pop is not reluctant to play rookies at all, he does it frequently and often, as I just documented. I mean, this is a guy who just two years ago played Boban freaking Marjanovic, pretty obviously a stiff, in 54 games.

Now it is true that the Spurs try to get older / more experienced Euro players when they can, they do value maturity. And it's also true that Pop gives a pretty quick hook when he thinks a player doesn't have it. But he definitely gives rookie minutes when he thinks they can help and they have game. Looks like Zizic falls in that category.

 

[kookoo]

And my posts in this thread shows that since 2011, with the notable exception of Kawhi, the vast majority of Pops rookies barely play in their first season. Regardless of what the Cavs do with Ante/Cedi, lets stop propagating a myth about Pop to critique what we think Lue will do. There is simply little evidence of Pop giving heavy minutes to 20 and 21 year old rookies in the past evidence. His norm is to get them into 20-40 games during blowouts and rest games, let them develop for a year or two in the G-League, or both:

-Danny Green played just 8 games in his first year with the Spurs
-Jonathan Simmons played for 2 seasons in the Spurs D-Leage team before Pop gave him a shot in 2015
-Kyle Anderson played in just 33 games in his rookie season in SAS
-DeJounte Murray played in 38 games his rookie year
-Patty Mills played just 16 games his first year with the Spurs(3rd in NBA
-Davis Bertans played 12 mpg as a 24 year old rookie last year, but had already played several years in professional Euro leagues
-Corey Joseph played just 29 games in 2011 as a Spurs rookie and then just 28 in his second year.

You're probably not responding to things I said but This is my criticism using Popovic as an example. Pops lets guys play who have worked for and deserve the minutes regardless of whether they're a rookie or not. The criticism of Lue is that he doesn't...

In addition to that, he saves his key players for the playoffs and allows them to rest within games. Lue's mentality is more total number of minutes - like you can play LeBron 39 minutes a game as long as he sits 8-10 games a season. Not how the body works. Guys you want to play and be healthy in the finals should get a little more rest than he was giving them last season, and we didn't even win that many games. Having Derrick Williams play instead of RJ later on in the season is my only real example because we did have major personnel issues last season with Shump being injured, not having any backup bigs outside of Frye, JR being injured, Love being injured, ect. So I can give him a pass until this season because we're relatively healthy and extremely deep.

But to not play Osman and Zizic specifically because they're young even if they're proving themselves in practise would be stupid as all hell. Or playing vets just because they have experience.

 

[MirORich]

You're probably not responding to things I said but This is my criticism using Popovic as an example. Pops lets guys play who have worked for and deserve the minutes regardless of whether they're a rookie or not. The criticism of Lue is that he doesn't...

In addition to that, he saves his key players for the playoffs and allows them to rest within games. Lue's mentality is more total number of minutes - like you can play LeBron 39 minutes a game as long as he sits 8-10 games a season. Not how the body works. Guys you want to play and be healthy in the finals should get a little more rest than he was giving them last season, and we didn't even win that many games. Having Derrick Williams play instead of RJ later on in the season is my only real example because we did have major personnel issues last season with Shump being injured, not having any backup bigs outside of Frye, JR being injured, Love being injured, ect. So I can give him a pass until this season because we're relatively healthy and extremely deep.

But to not play Osman and Zizic specifically because they're young even if they're proving themselves in practise would be stupid as all hell. Or playing vets just because they have experience.

Where is their an ample enough sample size of examples for Lue being this way in the 1.5 years he's been head coach?

Pop's been doing the resting technique for over a decade. Since 2008, the Spurs have won 1 Championship. I love Pop. Great coach. Built an amazing culture with the steadfast help of Buford, David Robinson, and Tim Duncan. The partnership and trust he had with Duncan kept everyone in line and the habits he developed as a coach in 21 years built a system.

What I see in regards to Lue are a bunch of people angry that we haven't won a title every year since LeBron came back. To the point where they turn Derrick Williams for example from a molehill to a mountain.

I just do not see evidence, maybe it will come over a longer swath of years, of these crimes against coachdom that Lue has committed.

Especially when in his half year, we won the title and last year we dealt with a half baked bottom half of the roster to start, followed by key injuries, followed by tons of additions and turnover.

All the while, we still made the Finals(to which zero credit is given Lue) and lost to a team that added a top5 MVP player to a historic 73-9 that already had a top5 MVP player, 2 other two way All Stars, and a swiss army knife 6th man.