Wow, one of the best starting units with a 5-17 record, who would have thought it....
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Tristan Thompson
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Wow, one of the best starting units with a 5-17 record, who would have thought it....
You're flying off the handle again, Joe, creating strawman arguments. One game doesn't prove or disprove - anything - especially a game where Tristan was helping Andy deal with Dwight Howard, played 10 minutes with the bench, grabbed 10 boards, and still walked away with a +1.
Too bad. It was fun for a few pages.
Too bad. It was fun for a few pages.
Thunder
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Tristan sucks, he'll be a good 4th big on a middle of the pack team, maybe even a good 3rd big. More like a 10-12 ppg/8 rpg type of guy, will be worth more if he could average a double double.
BTW, watch the first 15 seconds of the video in the article below and look at Hickson's monster 1 handed rebound...what small hands!? The kid would look great running the PnR with Irving/Waiters right now, and we gave him away for Casspi and a pick we may never get? -_-
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278023
BTW, watch the first 15 seconds of the video in the article below and look at Hickson's monster 1 handed rebound...what small hands!? The kid would look great running the PnR with Irving/Waiters right now, and we gave him away for Casspi and a pick we may never get? -_-
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278023
Hydroponic3385
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What are you implying? That legitimate stats referencing our starters are false? Or don't matter when talking about whether TT should be benched or not?
Yes, according to the +/- stat, our starting unit has been one of the best units in all of the NBA (and frankly, +/- actually IS a helpful statistic when looking at entire units). When a unit is near the top of that statistic when compared to every other unit in the league, I'd say it's a pretty successful lineup. The reason we're 5-17? Because of Kyrie/Dion's injuries, a very young team, and most importantly - one of the most horrendous benches in the league.
As I've already stated, I'm actually in full support of giving Zeller a shot at the starting spot. I agree, there's nice potential for him to stretch the floor more for our starting guards. But it's important to be cautious, and not assume that change will simply make things better. Shifting even more scoring from the bench to our starters will make our already terrible bench that much worse. And perhaps we'd find that TT's defense/rebounding was actually a decent fit with the starting lineup, and one of the reasons why that lineup has been so successful thus far this year.
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How in the heck were we one of the best starting units when KI was out for 11 games and Dion has missed 4 or 5 and counting, I'm implying that BS is a heck of a coach if that statistic is indeed true but I was wondering if you could also post the statistics or where you found them because it's just a little bit hard to believe we have one of the best starting units through 22 games. That we could have had one of the best starting units in the NBA through 22 games with essentially Jeremy Pargo, AV, Boobie Gibson, TT and Gee is amazing, if not a little bit hard to believe....
Hydroponic3385
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I'm talking about our starting unit when healthy (Kyrie, Dion, Gee, TT, AV). I don't have a link to the statistics, but many people referenced this (from various websites like 82games.com) before Kyrie was injured.
B3team
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Hickson wouldn't have played for us for what he makes now. You have to be a little patient, one of the Cav's best assets is financial flexibility. In the next couple seasons, teams are going to be dumping talent to save money. Cav's should be able to pick up quality players in a market where they are the only ones with money to spend.
Giambiwannabe7
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Who was citing just 1 game? Did you even watch the game? Do you actually watch any of the games? I'm not creating anything, just having a blast pointing out your flawed sense of reasoning that somehow TT's inflated +/- correlates to his value. It just doesn't. But, getting to disprove your nonsense is gratifying.
Strawman. Yes. One game. Yes. +1. Yes. K. Got it.
Ya know what was great about this game? Watching how many times Andy boxes out Dwight Howard so TT can get a board. Awesome stuff. I counted 4 times. I already said TT's D was pretty good, but again, not much diff than TZ. I loved watching TZ take DH on by himself almost all game when they were matched up.
So, after watching this again, let's do a fact check, Jon....
You said TT played 10 mins with the bench. Fact: TT played 2:43 with 0 starters(2Q...got a -4)
TT played 3:39 with 1 starter(2Q and 4Q...combined 0+/-)
TT played 4:19 with 2 starters(4Q...+1)
TT played 2:28 with 3 starters(4Q...0)
-He played 6:22 with either 0 or 1 other starter on the floor with him(-4)
-He played 6:47 with either 2 or 3 other starters on the floor with him.(+1)
-He played 20:27 with the starting unit(+4).
-He played a total of 27:14 where there were a majority of starters on the floor.
-He played a total of 6:22 where there was a majority of bench players on the floor.
You said he contributed help D on Dwight with Andy. Yes he did. Twice. The exact same amount as Gee(who also blocked a Dwight shot down low). He also helped TZ on Dwight. Twice. He guarded Dwight alone twice all game...in the 1Q. He fouled him once and caused a miss another time. Dwight was either individually covered by TZ or AV the rest of the game, or given help from other players.
This game was just a microcosm of the success TT enjoyed(in +/-) playing with the first team that he enjoyed the first 10 games when KI was here. The biggest +/- unit of the game was, yep you guessed it, the first unit at the end of the 2Q(+9). From the 5:54 mark on, we got Casspi out and put Gee back in and we jumped all over them. TT's contribution? 1 defensive rebound on Jordan Hill. He did little else at all. Showed a little energy. KI accounted for 14 of 18 pts by scoring or assist. That's over 3ppm(yep...I'm drooling again damnit).
You pull examples of guys who take 1 shot per game(Joel Anthony) as some sort of example of how MIA has great playmaking to contribute to their bigs great scoring %, but now cite this as only one game. How ironic. Funny thing is, this trend of carrying TT and inflating his +/- has been going on for a while now...not just one game. You're just a tad tardy in identifying it. Don't worry, we'll continue to track this, and you can continue twisting it better than that sweet spinning jumper KI started the game with last night...at least until TT gets yanked from the starting 5.
A quick check of Portland's top two lineups (one with Hickson and the other starters, and the other with Leonard instead of Hickson) shows that little has changed:
Portland is -11 with a 31.2 Win% with Hickson in 332 minutes, and they're +10 with a 69.2 Win% with Leonard in 78 minutes.
The Hickson group's offensive eFG% is .003 higher, but they give up .051 more on defense.
Portland is -11 with a 31.2 Win% with Hickson in 332 minutes, and they're +10 with a 69.2 Win% with Leonard in 78 minutes.
The Hickson group's offensive eFG% is .003 higher, but they give up .051 more on defense.
Why would that stop you? Heck, why haven't you gotten started now?
TZ would replace him, right?
How did TZ do when he was in the game with the starters or the majority of starters or however it is you care to quantify this?
It amazes me the things you leave out ... but just like when you cherry picked our points per possession and ignored our eFG% and ORB% - I imagine you're fully aware. Right?
Of course it's just one game, right?
Unfortunately, Tyler has played only 10 minutes with our preferred starters ... and just 10 minutes with last nights starters (minus Thompson in both cases). I'm sure you know that too, right? And of course you know those 20 minutes whether taken separate or combined are not very pretty.
Clearly we need more minutes to draw any conclusions about how Tyler would do in the starting group, but your selective statistical presentation continues to astound ... and then you accuse me of "twisting" things.
lol
Pioneer10
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Anyway Jon and SmknJoe could take this particular line of arguments to pm's? Not sure anyone is following what you guys are arguing about any longer and it's starting to take over the thread in a negative way, at least IMHO.
Giambiwannabe7
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Fair enough and I tend to agree with you. I actually have all the numbers Jon is whining about but I was trying to avoid just what you brought up.
Sorry to everyone for this getting out of hand.
Either way, I thought tonight's +/- were much more indicative of what was actually going on. The vast majority of the team was ass wipe. TT was doing what he should(yes, he still blew and took some easy shots but that wasn't what killed us) tonight, but the rest of the team was atrocious.
Anyways...back to TT...apologies again
BimboColesHair
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I've said this enough, but my feelings still remain, he is not as terrible as people here make him out to be. Yes, he is bad on offense, but that's not the only side of the ball you play on. His rebounding, especially defensively, is much better, he blocks out better, and he just looks better on defense this year all around. He still gets young guy bullshit calls on him, but he is still a solid post defender. Offensively, well, I pray he visits Moron Mountain this off season and gets some help from the Monstars cause dude has a long way to go.
Goldin Brown
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I think people are just incredibly impatient. If the kid is not good immediately, then there is absolutely no hope for him whatsoever, right?
He has had professional coaching for over a year now (with a full off-season) and potentially looks more woeful on offense now than ever.
How is that possible?
He brings a Rodman/Wallace level of offensive skill to the game without the Rodman/Wallace level of defense/rebounding.
If you are going to be a pathetic on offense as he is, the other side of the ball has to be far better than just "good/above average" to keep you on the floor to make up for hte fact he teammates are stuck playing 4 vs. 5 on offense.
It is not fair to anyone involved that they are forced to carry his sad ass the way they do because he refuses to put in the effort on that side of the ball to improve.
If he has been putting in the effort, then there really is no hope for the kid because he looks totally lost out there and it isn't working.
Either way, it is not a good sign for this team.
How is that possible?
He brings a Rodman/Wallace level of offensive skill to the game without the Rodman/Wallace level of defense/rebounding.
If you are going to be a pathetic on offense as he is, the other side of the ball has to be far better than just "good/above average" to keep you on the floor to make up for hte fact he teammates are stuck playing 4 vs. 5 on offense.
It is not fair to anyone involved that they are forced to carry his sad ass the way they do because he refuses to put in the effort on that side of the ball to improve.
If he has been putting in the effort, then there really is no hope for the kid because he looks totally lost out there and it isn't working.
Either way, it is not a good sign for this team.