Z wants 14 million a year!

[Mac]

Another fake fact, you can't prove that.

It goes by what a team needs, Shaq was traded for peanuts, does that really equal his value?

I wouldnt take Curry, Dalembert, or Chandler over Z.

The other players all All NBA players, that's like saying every team in the NBA would take Lebron over Kobe, RIP, Melo, Vince, Tmac etc...

Amare and Ben arent true centers, Duncan has never played the 5, so he shouldnt even be in this conversation.

Z is better than Yao, the only reason why people take Yao over Z is just age. Z is a much better man to man defender, much more well rounded on offense. Yao has a lot to learn and will get better, but he is not better than Z right now.

 

[The Disector]

Another fake fact, you can't prove that.

It goes by what a team needs, Shaq was traded for peanuts, does that really equal his value?

I wouldnt take Curry, Dalembert, or Chandler over Z.

The other players all All NBA players, that's like saying every team in the NBA would take Lebron over Kobe, RIP, Melo, Vince, Tmac etc...

Amare and Ben arent true centers, Duncan has never played the 5, so he shouldnt even be in this conversation.

Z is better than Yao, the only reason why people take Yao over Z is just age. Z is a much better man to man defender, much more well rounded on offense. Yao has a lot to learn and will get better, but he is not better than Z right now.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out stupid.
Learn to read and comprehend.

1st off no one said they would take Curry, Dalembert or Chandler over Z otherwise I would have rated them higher.

Whether Amare or Ben are true centers is irrelevant because they do as I said play the center postion and any team in the league would take them over Z!--but I guess you wouldn't because you are an idiot and thank God you're not our GM--You'd have me praying to bring back Paxson!

Z isn't a better defender then anyone on the list. He may be equal to Yao(maybe) but better--I'm sorry but you need to get off the Cheech and Chong son.

I think you are Z's on the side booty or something because his trunk is so far up your butt it has made you blind to both fact and truth about Z.

"Z is better then Yao"--lol
I told ya you definitely have some Z's got a big one glasses on!

Everytime you speak I just laugh my azz off because you our so far up Z's bottom if he wiped his azz you'd come out on the toilet paper.

Maybe if you were honest instead being mesmerized by Z's pole what you say would actually have some credibility.

Again if you respond to this I won't say anything because I don't fight gay men!

 

[Mac]

Wow, you are about as dumb as you look in your posts.

I have owned you over and over again, and you still cant hold an intelligent conversation.

You make a list of players and say in a later post that every GM in the L would take them over Z, those three players I mentioned were on your list so if you werent talking about them, you should have pointed that out before you made that comment.

It doesnt matter if those two play C for thier team or not, they arent centers. Karma already informed you of that, why do you keep bringing that up? On any other team, they wouldnt play C. All the talk in Phoenix is about finding a true C so Amare doesnt have to play that position and fit in at his natural four spot.

I never stated that Z was a better defender than anybody on that list other than Yao, so who are you telling to read and comprehend jackass?

I dont have any glasses on, I realize what Z is worth to this team. You have some hatred towards him and for no reason. You obviously have very little basketball knowledge because everybody on this board has ate you up beyond comprehension, yet you still post the same non-sense over and over and over. You are like a broken record, you just wont shut up.

You show your maturity as well by making a gay reference, you know you have no trash talking skills, or debate skills, by making a reference like that. That may have been cool in middle school, maybe you still are in middle school, I dont know, but nobody with any trash talk skills would make a gay reference. That was played out in the early 90s.

I dont need to have your credibility, I have everybody on this board to back me on what I know....yet you havent had one poster side with you, or even give you any props on what you have to say.

You have been owned by me because you are very annoying, Karma could do the same because he is by far one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board, along with many others who are up there with me.

You will never know more about basketball than I will...this thread has proven that, its comical that you actually think you have the upper hand. You must be 12 years old if you truly believe that...but I dont need to say anything, ask the people on this board who has won this arguement..If I put a poll up, Id crush your feelings.

 

[E-Light]

everything in this thread has been discussed over and over. Everybody keeps regurgitating the same arguements, and all the head way that will be made in this discussion has already been made. No need for this thread to continue to drag on.

Lock it up, mods.

 

[aggressivestyle]

I'm sorry but you're just flat out stupid.
Learn to read and comprehend.

1st off no one said they would take Curry, Dalembert or Chandler over Z otherwise I would have rated them higher.

First i would like to say that chandler isn't a center.

Whether Amare or Ben are true centers is irrelevant because they do as I said play the center postion and any team in the league would take them over Z!--but I guess you wouldn't because you are an idiot and thank God you're not our GM--You'd have me praying to bring back Paxson!

Actually i would say that amare wouldn't be taken by any team in the L.

He needs to run to be affective.He needs a unselfish point gaurd to make him more efficient.Take away nash then amare isn't as good as he is with nash.Not saying he is terrible but imagine him in a half court offense which some teams do play btw.

Z isn't a better defender then anyone on the list. He may be equal to Yao(maybe) but better--I'm sorry but you need to get off the Cheech and Chong son.

i disagree. Amare doesn't play D much....Infact the team doesn't play D much. As for yao he does play defense well he's underrated just like Z is. Every1 thinks they are soft which might be the reason why Z and Yao got the bad defense label on them as well. They might be soft but they are also big and i say man to man they are good defenders. To me them being "soft" isn't their problem on defense. There problem is being slow to be help defenders. Amare, Dalembert are better help defenders than man 2 man defenders.

put Dalembert vs. Z in a game vs each other posting up who would win?

btw don't diss cheech and chong! they tight!

I think you are Z's on the side booty or something because his trunk is so far up your butt it has made you blind to both fact and truth about Z.

i think your just a hater thinking that Z isn't important.

"Z is better then Yao"--lol
I told ya you definitely have some Z's got a big one glasses on!

i don't think Z is better than yao but a case can be made...Z is more clutch than yao and i believe he's a better shooter than yao and a better rebounder. No use to bring up the stats...Stats don't tell all.

Everytime you speak I just laugh my azz off because you our so far up Z's bottom if he wiped his azz you'd come out on the toilet paper.

i laugh everytime you don't think any of your points are wrong and you think every1 shall bow down to your greatness! Which imo aren't that great 2 begin with. Your not as smart as you think so stop acting like your hard.

Maybe if you were honest instead being mesmerized by Z's pole what you say would actually have some credibility.

cred is a strong word for you 2 use...it's kinda of a oxymoron for you 2 use. Your calling out some1's cred but looking at this thread is showing me that you had no cred to begin with.

a guy with no cred saying this and this person has no cred? oxymoron.

Again if you respond to this I won't say anything because I don't fight gay men!

seriously...how do you expect not to get in a fight but you end up using fighting words? are you that immature?

 

[Karma]

I do get a giggle from this thread. The boys are going at it. At least Jerome James is finally out of this discussion and we are getting closer to actually talking about centers near Z's quality.

Disector, I would not take Ben Wallace over Ilgauskas. I'm not saying one is better then the other, I'm just saying we need Z's play over what Big Ben brings. If we had a more dominant offensive power forward like Rasheed, then my mind would change. But the fact is Drew and Varejao are our power forwards now and in the future. Neither player will ever constantly require any special coverage clogging up the lane for LeBron.

I have a few facts for you guys, without them being stats. I'll start with Carlos Boozer. His last season in Cleveland he became famous for his mid range jumpers. Was this something he had done in his rookie campaign or in college? Not at all. It was an offensive style which had been addapted to suit playing with LeBron james. Was Boozer now "soft" because he relied on his jumper for a good portion of his offense? Not at all. Now that Boozer has wandered over to Utah, do we see him standing on the baseline from 15 feet jacking up that reliable J? No we dont. He is back playing in the post. Trying to give Utah an influence down low as they lack any real other option there. There is no Ilgauskas or James drawing attention away from him like he enjoyed in Cleveland. Ilgauskas will always be known as a power forwards dream. Continually demanding the attention of both bigs.

As for Ilgauskas's offensive game, it has had some subtle changes too. He does shoot the mid to long range jumper a tad more then previously as well. It is just what happens when you play with LeBron James. The fact Z can step out virtually to the 3 point line and nail those J's opens up so much room in the paint. It takes away the biggest player and blocking threat off Lebron for his potent drives to the bucket. If it doesn't, LeBron just kicks to Z for the open J. The spreading of the floor allows the athletic Gooden and Varejao plenty of offensive rebound oppotunities. Having ben Wallace instead of Ilgauskas reallly would clutter up our offense, and we'd be trying to win games defending scores of 70's and 80's. Defense may win championships, but somewhere in the mix is some offense.

Why isn't now that finesse players get no respect? Tim Duncan is at times blasted by mindless people cuse he doesn't "slam it home". People are ignorant to fundamentals. I'm not saying Ilgauskas is Duncan, but they share th same skills on offense. They dont beat there man on explosive moves. They use their bodies to create contact and over aggresiveness from the defenses. I actually believe if we were in the playoffs, Z's finess style would work to our advantage. Over aggressive defenses would to me forever be in foul trouble trying to shut him down. Z is in the elite status when it comes to drawing fouls. This is despite him being slow footed. Speed is not the be all end all. Some fundamentals never go astray.

Oh yeah has anyone mentioned that Ilgauskas is the best offensive rebounder in the NBA not named Ben Wallace? Oh it has. OK, well theres a reminder.

Ok now for the ownage line. Damn me being a basketball geek, with no name calling skills.

 

[The Disector]

Most of the posters on the board know where I'm about to go again.

It's the Jerome James is at it again post.

22 points 9 rebounds and a 3rd straight solid performance for James in the playoffs no less.

According to Tom Tolbert(who's opinion I would take before anyone on this board because he gets paid to analyze the NBA and NBA talent)
" No one no matter how much they know about basketball could have ever guessed this!"--Referring to Jerome James

I disagree there was somebody who saw this if Jerome actually got to touch the ball and here are some of his quotes.

He is a good defender, is an underrated and underutilized offensive player, is a good rebounder and a player who takes up space in the paint!

James is also a real unknown in Seattle because of Allen and Lewis.

Jerome James--scrub my bottom!--Just shows some of you don't have any credibility and don't know what you are talking about!


I say it again Jerome James is not a bad player just a player who doesn't get many opportunities because of all the other shooters on the Seattle squad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it was me and boy how I love to be right and shove it in people's faces.
These people may want to give me a little more credit then they have.
I think I've earned it and proven my knowledge of the game again.

more like if jerome james is our starting center the next 7 years we'll be lottery bound while Z will be carrying his team to the play offs.

Man, no one is on your side with this one. Stuff like this - saying you would take Jerome James over Z - yikes!

You are just straight up wrong on this one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want this clowns credit because he's an idiot and a liar but here's a little more to prove how little knowledge of the game he has.

You obviously know nothing about basketball when you say James is a solid replacement for Z..

James would hurt this team, there isnt one single thing he does that would help.

I know I have great knowledge of the game of basketball.

I'm told this all the time by people all around me.

I'm a player and a coach who was nomintaed by all his piers to be the coach because of my knowledge and ability to teach and see what needs to be done to win.

Some of you may not like the fact that I believe my opinion is superior to others but when it comes to basketball I just believe in my own abilities and knowledge because so many others do.

It is not a matter of not respecting others opinion but a matter of believing I'm right until proven wrong.

On a final note if "A mac the liar" has a response to this post I won't respond because someone who can post whatever whether it be the truth or not is someone who will never get any credibility from me!

 

[Mac]

And they took a hard L last night too, he has three good games. He is up there to Zs averages for a SEASON. Z does this all year, James has had three good games. That suddenly makes him a good player?? LOL..

Speedy Claxton did the same thing three years ago, where is he now? lol..

You havent thrown anything back in anybodys face because you have yet to be right. Just because he has three games doesnt take away for five years he has been crap, three games doesnt change that num nuts.

If you had great knowledge of basketball, it would have showed up in this thread, which it clearly hasnt. Anybody can make a story up about being a coach, prove it. Who's your team and who are these people? Dont throw things out there without backing them up, Ive already owned you three times for doing that.

I dont need your credibility, your opinion dont mean jack to me. You are beneath me, you will never know as much as basketball about me....like I said, I coudl start a poll about who got the better of this debate and it would be a land slide, you probably would only get your own vote.

I told you to list facts that you have said, I ate every single one of them up. You didnt even respond because you looked so stupid after I posted all you could say was "pick and roll, pick and roll...thats all I have that is arguable, pick and roll"

LOL, you are a joke. Your posting level is about that of d3mise, you have been proven wrong so many times it's unreal, you wonder why nobody respects you. How many times to you have to be proved wrong before you shut up?

 

[Mac]

18/7/57%, Z's stat line from the playoffs, AS A ROOKIE.

He's proven...unlike James who's been a bum his entire career before having three good games.

Z played next to Kemp, where as James has two all-stars in Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, and a very good young PG in Ridnour. Obviously he is going to get some looks, not to mention he is playing against probably the softest C in the NBA in Brad Miller who plays on the softest team in the NBA, the Kings.

 

[CavsTalk]

I know I have great knowledge of the game of basketball.

I'm told this all the time by people all around me.

I'm a player and a coach who was nomintaed by all his piers to be the coach because of my knowledge and ability to teach and see what needs to be done to win.

Some of you may not like the fact that I believe my opinion is superior to others but when it comes to basketball I just believe in my own abilities and knowledge because so many others do.

It is not a matter of not respecting others opinion but a matter of believing I'm right until proven wrong.

On a final note if "A mac the liar" has a response to this post I won't respond because someone who can post whatever whether it be the truth or not is someone who will never get any credibility from me!

OK first of all you 2 are do more talking about yourself than talking about basketball... Therefore, I might refer you 2 to the off topic board, where we can see who is the best trash-talker or who has the most cred... With that being said

I would like to show you whets wrong with you so called argument of putting Jerome James on a pedal stool. Did you watch lasts night game? Do you know who Colloris Williamson is? Well, would you expect for a Center to get eaten up by a SF? Honestly, Jerome James is lazy dude... which was also evident in last night’s game... You need to speak with Luke Witnower, because he should be on ESPN's "Jacked UP" because your main man Jerome James about 10 ft away not offering any help in the pick'n'roll and boy Luke ripped after he got clocked, because when you offer no help on pick'n'rolls is lazy and when you don't call them out... well that’s just uncalled for... So maybe if this was read before your peer's they might ask for a revote, because any coach I've ever had always wanted us to play 100%, but maybe Jerome James at 10% is better than Z diving on the ball hustling for loose balls at 110%... Those are the facts ... these are character issues that as a coach I would be very noticeable and evident. Not to mention I was kind of on your side until I actually watched him play then I realized it was offense created by his teammates, because his post moves need a lot of work and he has no touch. I want to trade Z in for a newer and better model so we surround Lebron with young talented players, but right there is a gap between these young players and Z.

 

[aggressivestyle]

Honestly, Jerome James is lazy dude... which was also evident in last night’s game... You need to speak with Luke Witnower, because he should be on ESPN's "Jacked UP" because your main man Jerome James about 10 ft away not offering any help in the pick'n'roll and boy Luke ripped after he got clocked, because when you offer no help on pick'n'rolls is lazy and when you don't call them out... well that’s just uncalled for...

also like to add this didn't only happen once where luke got planted. Having a young player like luke yell at a vet like the vet was a rook...imo makes me question j.james basketball iq.

Not to mention I was kind of on your side until I actually watched him play then I realized it was offense created by his teammates, because his post moves need a lot of work and he has no touch. I want to trade Z in for a newer and better model so we surround Lebron with young talented players, but right there is a gap between these young players and Z.

your talking about the 2 airballs he threw up 5 feet under the basket aren't u? :chuckles:


side note: jerome james was told by the kings a few yrs ago that they think he should find a new career cuz he just isn't a basketball player. Doesn't any1 think that he is doing good cuz

1. motivation
2. Brad is playing on 1 leg
3.Contract yr?

i think thats the case imo...anyways i bet you it doesn't last.After this series if seatle wins...It won't last!

 

[The Disector]

Did you watch lasts night game? Do you know who Colloris Williamson is? Well, would you expect for a Center to get eaten up by a SF? You need to speak with Luke Witnower, because he should be on ESPN's "Jacked UP" because your main man Jerome James about 10 ft away not offering any help in the pick'n'roll and boy Luke ripped after he got clocked, because when you offer no help on pick'n'rolls is lazy and when you don't call them out.. Those are the facts ... Not to mention I was kind of on your side until I actually watched him play then I realized it was offense created by his teammates, because his post moves need a lot of work and he has no touch.

I don't want James as some superstar replacement for Z and I've said this over and over.

I've said James is a capable backup to replace Z and let us spend our free agent money on more help for the Cavs.

As for guarding Williamson and getting eaten up do I really have to post Williamson's stats for last game.
Besides since when is a center suppose to be able to shut down a Small Forward?

I won't lie and say James hasn't gotten a couple of baskets off of his teammates but if you play basketball that's suppose to be the case.

That said don't sit here and make it sound like there were not several occasions in which the Sonics didn't just throw the ball to James in the post and let him go get his own points.

He posted up and scored several times, he grabbed rebounds and made put backs off them and he got a few assisted baskets.

In the 2nd half they were even doubling Jerome.

As for Ridnour, the pick everyone made such a big deal about was set in the back court and to sit here and say he didn't help on that pick n roll is funny.

A center isn't suppose to be full court pressing and helping in the back court.

Should he have yelled Pick Right--of course!

There was another pick n roll situation where Ridnour got a hard pick but I wouldn't make a big deal about it because it's not like it happens every game or is some big problem they have had all season otherwise Ridnour would be dead!

There are other PG's who have had hard picks set on them including McInnis and Snow but I'm not going to harp on that because it is a part of the game.

 

[The Disector]

i think thats the case imo...anyways i bet you it doesn't last.After this series if seatle wins...It won't last!

It doesn't matter if it lasts or not.

The fact is I said if James got touches he can produce and be a solid NBA center and I was right.

The next game or 10 games he may not get the post up opportunities he has gotten in the last 3 which would mean less production for anyone.

Like I said if James gets touches and opportunities he's not some scrub as made out by others on the board.

Is he some superstar--of course not but go in this thread and find somewhere I ever said that.

Could he be a solid replacement if the Cavs don't sign Z back or go another direction with thier free agent money?
Definitely.

 

[aggressivestyle]

He posted up and scored several times, he grabbed rebounds and made put backs off them and he got a few assisted baskets.

since you claim you watched the game didn't you see him throw up 2 airballs even tho he was about 6ft away?

In the 2nd half they were even doubling Jerome.

no they weren't.

As for Ridnour, the pick everyone made such a big deal about was set in the back court and to sit here and say he didn't help on that pick n roll is funny.

this happened MORE than once! what part of that didn't you understand? You said that Z sucks at pick and roll..atleast he try's to defend it!

A center isn't suppose to be full court pressing and helping in the back court.

i'm either
A. seriously doubting that you watched the game.

b. seriously think you aren't a "player or Coach" like you stated.

Should he have yelled Pick Right--of course!

he should of defended the pick and roll to but i guess it doesn't involve bashing Z so i can't bring that up!

There was another pick n roll situation where Ridnour got a hard pick but I wouldn't make a big deal about it because it's not like it happens every game or is some big problem they have had all season otherwise Ridnour would be dead!

i guess you did watch the game then...then tell me how did bibby get 2 the basket with ease? james shoulda pick up his man? correct? oh wait i forgot only Z isn't any good at defending pick and rolls. Well atleast he TRIES!

There are other PG's who have had hard picks set on them including McInnis and Snow but I'm not going to harp on that because it is a part of the game.

yea but Z atleast try to defend their man which usually ends in fouls or the guy still blows past him but atleast he tries.

 

[aggressivestyle]

It doesn't matter if it lasts or not.

The fact is I said if James got touches he can produce and be a solid NBA center and I was right.

The next game or 10 games he may not get the post up opportunities he has gotten in the last 3 which would mean less production for anyone.

Like I said if James gets touches and opportunities he's not some scrub as made out by others on the board.

Is he some superstar--of course not but go in this thread and find somewhere I ever said that.

Could he be a solid replacement if the Cavs don't sign Z back or go another direction with thier free agent money?
Definitely.

yes he is a scrub. Sorry man but your defending a scrub! He is just motivated right now. You think if sonics continues in the playoffs he will continue to do well? i don't! i can't tell the future but i certainly don't think it will be the case. But it doesn't matter anyway.He doesn't play better defense than Z anyway.

Great size... Will block some shots... Decent offensive player... Awful from the free-throw line... Very low basketball IQ... Very inconsistent... Must improve his conditioning and defensive mentality.

this tells me.

A. he isn't smart

B. doesn't always have his head in the game

C. weak very weak defensively. if you were a "coach" you know defense is as much mental than physical!

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