Time for a Rudy Gay safari?

[gourimoko]

I think we would have to try to get a feeling if he would want to rather Play on a contender for 20m than get 25+m elsewhere.. i Imagine he would.. he lacks Team Sucsess so far and i imagine he would be happy to play for Titles..

I would not want to throw Shump away for half a year of Gay and whoops he is gone..

@BigJ, FWIW, this happens with Rudy Gay every time he's moved.

It's often said:

1) He's going to demand a huge haul and never has;
2) He's going to demand so much money in the offseason, and never does;
3) He's going to chance the biggest contract, when he's never given any indication that he would.

Rudy Gay is not going to get a $100M+ deal this offseason; I just cannot see that happening. He'll very likely get a similar deal + up to 10% (cap increase) that Luol Deng got, which was outrageous.

Keep in mind, Gay will be 31 this offseason; he's not an All-Star, or even an All-Star caliber player. Again, see Luol Deng. I'm not sure where he would get off trying to ask for 25%+ of the cap?

And if a team had that kind of money, why would they spend it all on Rudy Gay?

His best option to get paid is with a contender that needs him, or, with a team like the Raptors, Celtics, Spurs, etc, willing to go into the tax to pay him in the hopes that he puts them over the top. But I don't know of any teams with cap space that are going to throw it $25M at Rudy Gay.

 

[Pioneer10]

Gay paases the ball more then I remember: not the black hole he seemed to be earlier in his career.
I would do a Cedi/Shump for Gay/Lawson move in a heartbeat

 

[godfather]

I really don't know how the team can justify not getting him, if it can happen. Shump and Osman? Yes please!

Why would anyone say it's justifiable for the team to sacrifice a championship, just because of the luxury tax? Seriously? Does Gay not make this team much better? If the answer is a sound yes, I don't think for a second they'd say no to a deal.

I don't think things like Delly qualify as that. Delly is replaceable in their eyes.

I don't buy a damn second we'd be against having Gay, because of a potential long-term contract. We'd be basically replacing Shumpert's contract with Gay's anyways.

I think Gay will command similar to what JR got. Would that be so outrageous? No!

 

[gourimoko]

I really don't know how the team can justify not getting him, if it can happen. Shump and Osman? Yes please!

Why would anyone say it's justifiable for the team to sacrifice a championship, just because of the luxury tax? Seriously? Does Gay not make this team much better? If the answer is a sound yes, I don't think for a second they'd say no to a deal.

I don't think things like Delly qualify as that. Delly is replaceable in their eyes.

I don't buy a damn second we'd be against having Gay, because of a potential long-term contract. We'd be basically replacing Shumpert's contract with Gay's anyways.

I think Gay will command similar to what JR got. Would that be so outrageous? No!

Cap will go up, Gay will get somewhere around $18-20M, RJ will have no place on the Cavs, JJ who knows but will likely not be brought back, Birdman won't be on the books; and instead of grabbing 30 year old vets we'll get some D-Leaguers who are significantly cheaper (and younger, and more able to be developed).

I personally don't get the luxury tax argument with respect to Rudy Gay vs Iman Shumpert; but... I think people aren't really appreciating the fact that Iman + any player will result in an equivalent increase in the luxury tax this season. So if we add someone (a PG or a big) with the TPE @ >= $5M, there's your salary difference right there.

So since we know the Cavs are willing to add a player with the TPE, and are actively shopping for someone who is a "playmaker" or a "point guard" then I'm not sure why we'd assume they're totally opposed to increasing the salary of the team.

 

[godfather]

Cap will go up, Gay will get somewhere around $18-20M, RJ will have no place on the Cavs, JJ who knows but will likely not be brought back, Birdman won't be on the books; and instead of grabbing 30 year old vets we'll get some D-Leaguers who are significantly cheaper (and younger, and more able to be developed).

I personally don't get the luxury tax argument with respect to Rudy Gay vs Iman Shumpert; but... I think people aren't really appreciating the fact that Iman + any player will result in an equivalent increase in the luxury tax this season. So if we add someone (a PG or a big) with the TPE @ >= $5M, there's your salary difference right there.

So since we know the Cavs are willing to add a player with the TPE, and are actively shopping for someone who is a "playmaker" or a "point guard" then I'm not sure why we'd assume they're totally opposed to increasing the salary of the team.

Sure, the team isn't going to add money to the luxury tax if they don't think it's worth it much. I get that argument, which is why they let a Delly go for example.

But a Rudy Gay? Does anyone really think Gilbert doesn't want another title bad? Because he's made it known he wants to repeat. Although happy, I don't think he's one of these owners that got his title and now wants to be cheap. Nah. Remember? That shit pissed LeBron off in Miami.

I just think players like Delly were viewed expendable by the organization, and even LeBron. He didn't seem one bit "upset" over losing Delly. Wished him well on twitter.

 

[gourimoko]

Sure, the team isn't going to add money to the luxury tax if they don't think it's worth it much. I get that argument, which is why they let a Delly go for example.

But a Rudy Gay? Does anyone really think Gilbert doesn't want another title bad? Because he's made it known he wants to repeat. Although happy, I don't think he's one of these owners that got his title and now wants to be cheap. Nah. Remember? That shit pissed LeBron off in Miami.

I just think players like Delly were viewed expendable by the organization, and even LeBron. He didn't seem one bit "upset" over losing Delly. Wished him well on twitter.

From the Cavs' perspective; we have one team to beat: Golden State.

A lot of Cavs fans here don't respond to this thought-process very well. Many fans here think that the regular season is just as important and that we shouldn't solely focus on Golden State. There's fans who resent the notion that we should build our team with the primary focus around that of a single opponent....

And while I appreciate that line of thinking; I just don't think most folks are also appreciating the realities that we're faced with:

1) Golden State has Steph + 4 wings in their most b.s. "death" lineup.
2) Those 4 wings are 6'6 at the smallest.
3) 3 of those 4 wings are all, simultaneously, in their prime.
4) Durant and Klay are shooting ~40% from 3.
5) Draymond and Durant (limited) can play the 1-5.
6) Golden State, for years, has demonstrated they can and will go small for extended stretches of games.
7) Golden State will be our opponent in the Finals; and if they're not, then we have nothing to worry about anyway.

Delly doesn't help us, directly, with any of these problems. He doesn't help us with Steph Curry since Kyrie has outplayed Steph in almost every game they've played thus far and Irving completely destroys the Warriors defensive schemes forcing them to bring Steph in to help with Klay (notice Klay complaining about not getting help on plays?).

In Year 1, I advocated a backcourt of Delly/Irving, with Irving at the off-guard since I thought he would get decimated by Steph...

I was wrong, obviously.

So.. with that said, Delly just doesn't help us against the Warriors and he had the opportunity to start for the Bucks. I still think we should've kept him to facilitate a trade (to the Bucks?) but that's neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Rudy Gay does help us with those issues above.. He helps us defend against the Warriors, and you cannot help off of him. He requires a defender at all times.

A lineup of Kyrie/Korver/Gay/James/Love is just as much a "death lineup" as anything the Warriors could throw at us. And unlike the Warriors best lineup, all 5 of our guys can shoot, drive, and score; whereas Iguodala has obviously fallen off a cliff and we can legitimately leave him open to help against Durant.

I'm still not convinced the Cavs can get Rudy Gay; but it's definitely possible. I think the Cavs could get Ricky Rubio, which could mean the Cavs could flip him for Gay and that works for everyone involved; I think. I also think the Kings would feel that's the best value they could get at a position of need - and that Rubio wouldn't signal an end to their playoff aspirations.

 

[Efficiency]

@BigJ,

Keep in mind, Gay will be 31 this offseason; he's not an All-Star, or even an All-Star caliber player. Again, see Luol Deng. I'm not sure where he would get off trying to ask for 25%+ of the cap?

And if a team had that kind of money, why would they spend it all on Rudy Gay?

Didn't 76ers last year offer a bunch of crazy contracts to Crawford/Ginobili/JR Smith lol? Gay/Simmons/Embiid would be interesting.

 

[Jordan]

From the Cavs' perspective; we have one team to beat: Golden State.

A lot of Cavs fans here don't respond to this thought-process very well. Many fans here think that the regular season is just as important and that we shouldn't solely focus on Golden State. There's fans who resent the notion that we should build our team with the primary focus around that of a single opponent....

And while I appreciate that line of thinking; I just don't think most folks are also appreciating the realities that we're faced with:

1) Golden State has Steph + 4 wings in their most b.s. "death" lineup.
2) Those 4 wings are 6'6 at the smallest.
3) 3 of those 4 wings are all, simultaneously, in their prime.
4) Durant and Klay are shooting ~40% from 3.
5) Draymond and Durant (limited) can play the 1-5.
6) Golden State, for years, has demonstrated they can and will go small for extended stretches of games.
7) Golden State will be our opponent in the Finals; and if they're not, then we have nothing to worry about anyway.

Delly doesn't help us, directly, with any of these problems. He doesn't help us with Steph Curry since Kyrie has outplayed Steph in almost every game they've played thus far and Irving completely destroys the Warriors defensive schemes forcing them to bring Steph in to help with Klay (notice Klay complaining about not getting help on plays?).

In Year 1, I advocated a backcourt of Delly/Irving, with Irving at the off-guard since I thought he would get decimated by Steph...

I was wrong, obviously.

So.. with that said, Delly just doesn't help us against the Warriors and he had the opportunity to start for the Bucks. I still think we should've kept him to facilitate a trade (to the Bucks?) but that's neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Rudy Gay does help us with those issues above.. He helps us defend against the Warriors, and you cannot help off of him. He requires a defender at all times.

A lineup of Kyrie/Korver/Gay/James/Love is just as much a "death lineup" as anything the Warriors could throw at us. And unlike the Warriors best lineup, all 5 of our guys can shoot, drive, and score; whereas Iguodala has obviously fallen off a cliff and we can legitimately leave him open to help against Durant.

I'm still not convinced the Cavs can get Rudy Gay; but it's definitely possible. I think the Cavs could get Ricky Rubio, which could mean the Cavs could flip him for Gay and that works for everyone involved; I think. I also think the Kings would feel that's the best value they could get at a position of need - and that Rubio wouldn't signal an end to their playoff aspirations.

This is the best post I've read in the "Trades" thread ever. Great analysis. 10/10.

 

[The Wizard of Moz]

I'm honestly at the point where I'd take a Gay rental over 3 years of Shump.

Obvious preference is making the numbers work and resigning him, but if you offer me one postseason run with Gay or 3 with Shump I probably take the 1 with Gay.

I think a lot of people underrate how bad Shumpert's defense is anymore (the entire reason we even acquired him). Calling him a 3&D guy is just inaccurate at this point

 

[Snarly]

From the Cavs' perspective; we have one team to beat: Golden State.

A lot of Cavs fans here don't respond to this thought-process very well. Many fans here think that the regular season is just as important and that we shouldn't solely focus on Golden State. There's fans who resent the notion that we should build our team with the primary focus around that of a single opponent....

And while I appreciate that line of thinking; I just don't think most folks are also appreciating the realities that we're faced with:

1) Golden State has Steph + 4 wings in their most b.s. "death" lineup.
2) Those 4 wings are 6'6 at the smallest.
3) 3 of those 4 wings are all, simultaneously, in their prime.
4) Durant and Klay are shooting ~40% from 3.
5) Draymond and Durant (limited) can play the 1-5.
6) Golden State, for years, has demonstrated they can and will go small for extended stretches of games.
7) Golden State will be our opponent in the Finals; and if they're not, then we have nothing to worry about anyway.

Delly doesn't help us, directly, with any of these problems. He doesn't help us with Steph Curry since Kyrie has outplayed Steph in almost every game they've played thus far and Irving completely destroys the Warriors defensive schemes forcing them to bring Steph in to help with Klay (notice Klay complaining about not getting help on plays?).

In Year 1, I advocated a backcourt of Delly/Irving, with Irving at the off-guard since I thought he would get decimated by Steph...

I was wrong, obviously.

So.. with that said, Delly just doesn't help us against the Warriors and he had the opportunity to start for the Bucks. I still think we should've kept him to facilitate a trade (to the Bucks?) but that's neither here nor there.

Suffice to say, Rudy Gay does help us with those issues above.. He helps us defend against the Warriors, and you cannot help off of him. He requires a defender at all times.

A lineup of Kyrie/Korver/Gay/James/Love is just as much a "death lineup" as anything the Warriors could throw at us. And unlike the Warriors best lineup, all 5 of our guys can shoot, drive, and score; whereas Iguodala has obviously fallen off a cliff and we can legitimately leave him open to help against Durant.

I'm still not convinced the Cavs can get Rudy Gay; but it's definitely possible. I think the Cavs could get Ricky Rubio, which could mean the Cavs could flip him for Gay and that works for everyone involved; I think. I also think the Kings would feel that's the best value they could get at a position of need - and that Rubio wouldn't signal an end to their playoff aspirations.

I agree with all of this but one thing you said... and I bolded it sounds like the worst type or porno names... It sounds like Kyrie Korver meets Gay James Love. That said I do not give a flying Phuck lets go get the guy. He does bring the AI aspect to this team and with Korver it makes Shump kind of an asset or useless once Smith comes back. If Shump can not find his defense then no reason not to do a trade like that.

 

[The Red Viper]

I have a couple of questions question for @gourimoko , @godfather and others who want us to get Rudy Gay.

1. Do you think Rudy Gay would be that effective playing off the ball? Throughout his career till now, he has always thrived with the ball in his hands. What makes you guys so confident that he would be great playing off the ball?

2. Won't getting another high volume shooter affect the dynamics of the team? There were issues with integrating Love in the offense until last season before Ty took over. Adding another guy who needs the ball in his hands and has been a high volume shooter doesn't seem like ideal.

3. And I still don't see how Rudy Gay will help us negate or restrict KD, because he has never been known for defense.

I agree that we need an athletic wing and it should be the priority. I just don't see Rudy Gay as the ideal option for it.

 

[gourimoko]

I have a couple of questions question for @gourimoko , @godfather and others who want us to get Rudy Gay.

1. Do you think Rudy Gay would be that effective playing off the ball? Throughout his career till now, he has always thrived with the ball in his hands. What makes you guys so confident that he would be great playing off the ball?

Well, the thing about the Cavs is that we need someone who can play with the ball in his hands; hence the need for either a point-guard or a "playmaker," but to your point, we need someone who does not require the ball in order to be effective at all times, nor can this player rely on dribbling the air out of the ball to isolation or create for himself or others given the role of this player as a 4th option.

I don't consider Rudy Gay a "playmaker" in the traditional sense of the term; however, he's putting up 3 APG per game and can play the 3-4 (or 3-5 against the Warriors). He's also able to create for himself, so running with the second unit Gay could ball out against lesser competition.

But most importantly, and to your point; Rudy Gay is not really the kind of player that dribbles constantly looking to create for himself. Equating this to isolation frequency, we can see that Gay is ranked 43rd out of the top 50 players in the NBA with respect to isolation plays. Comparable players are Evan Turn, Giannis, Wilson Chandler, and Jimmy Butler (all floating around 12.3%).

2. Won't getting another high volume shooter affect the dynamics of the team? There were issues with integrating Love in the offense until last season before Ty took over. Adding another guy who needs the ball in his hands and has been a high volume shooter doesn't seem like ideal.

To be clear, Rudy Gay only takes 14.7 FGA this season, and last season he took slightly less.. That's on a depleted Kings team. You could envision him taking 12-13 FGA per game with no problems whatsoever and focusing more of his effort on getting boards and dishing out 1-2 more assists per game.

So with that said, I wouldn't argue Gay is a high volume shooter any longer. I mean, certainly in his Toronto years, yes absolutely; but these days, Gay seems to be slowing down quite a bit. He's on the tail end of his career, and it shows in his shot attempts and production.

With that said though, he's still fairly efficient at 50% eFG% and a .556 TS%; both of which are great numbers for a 4th option.

3. And I still don't see how Rudy Gay will help us negate or restrict KD, because he has never been known for defense.

Of course you don't see this... You don't see it because it's impossible..

Seriously though, you're 100% correct -- Rudy Gay on KD is a still a bad matchup for us. But Gay, who is 6'8 and 260lbs is a hell of a lot better of an option on Kevin Durant than JR Smith, Iman Shumpert, or Kyle Korver, let alone Richard Jefferson -- bless his soul..

But, here's the controversial part of all of this... If we're really going to beat the Warriors; LeBron is going to need to guard Kevin Durant. If Kyrie Irving is expected to chase Steph Curry around for 40 minutes and put up 30/5/5 then James is going to have to guard Durant at the same time.

We all would prefer to have James on Green, but, unless Gay can handle that matchup, then James will likely need to guard KD.

And with that said -- keep in mind, LeBron can guard Kevin Durant. Durant is not quick enough to beat James off the dribble consistently, and he's not strong enough to back down James in the low post. Durant's only hope against a guy like James is to shoot over the top of him, which he doesn't do well under pressure - or, to hope to get bailed out for a foul.

The KD-James and Curry-Irving matchups are HIGHLY favorable for the Cavaliers. We have the two best players on the floor in a Finals scenario, and give us Rudy Gay we might have a positional nightmare for them.

I agree that we need an athletic wing and it should be the priority. I just don't see Rudy Gay as the ideal option for it.

Rudy Gay is not ideal at all... Period... But he's optimal given the circumstances; our cap situation; the lack of assets; the matchup we're about to face.

Rudy Gay is a 6'8 veteran wing who can play the 3-4, can handle the ball, isn't a bad defender, can create for himself when Irving/James rests, and is comfortable playing with a dominant big man (he can treat Love just as he would Cousins).

Rudy Gay is someone we can plant on Draymond Green with no concerns whatsoever in that matchup either way.

Gay is someone we can run endless pick-and-roll with, one through five, PnR these motherfuckers to death..

Again, a 31 year old guy on the tail end of his career is not what I would call "ideal." But Rudy Gay is definitely what I would call making lemonade out of lemons... And that's kind of the situation we have right now with Iman Shumpert and Cedi Osman as the only tradeable assets we have.

 

[godfather]

Yeah, we aren't looking for someone to stop Durant. That's not going to happen. However, you need someone to be physical with him, and make him work hard. Jefferson, Shumpert, and Korver can't do that.

And if we want LeBron to guard Durant, you still need Rudy Gay to still mix and match with him. LeBron can't guard him every single minute on the floor. He just can't. You got to have someone else to go against Durant. And we don't have anyone else.

Rudy Gay is a pretty good defender for he record. He's athletic, he's strong, and long. Those are the types of guys that can bother Durant.

Also Gay and LeBron can switch off screen defensively too.

 

[Pioneer10]

Gay isnt known for his defense but he's also just because of his physical tools not someone you'll run entire offensive sets to get a matchup against him (see us doing that vs Curry and us NOT doing it againest him even though we have this guy named Lebron). On the other hand you have to guard him and set your defense with him in mind (he destroy JR a few years ago when we played the Kings).

We need two way guys which we really lack right now and if JR comes back healthy: we can create lineups that literally can match any team in history in terms of scoring and athletic ability. Our "death" lineups look downright scary with him - TT/Love, Lebron, Gay, Smith, Irving or you can create big "death": TT, Love, Lebron, Gay, Irving.

 

[Simon]

If Cavs get Rudy Gay, Cavs can have their own version of the death lineup, in my opinion.