Tyronn Lue has been fired

[go cavs275]

One of the main things left I'd like to see Lue do is focus on getting this team to play better when Lebron is on the bench. This has nothing to do with last night, as obviously that game meant nothing. This team just still struggles mightily with Lebron on the bench, I saw Price post in one of the threads that in the finals we were -25.9 with Lebron on the bench. That shit could lose a series. Part of it is Lebron is just a very impactful player, but we also just look very disjointed as a unit without him.

I think the way you go about fixing this is by playing Kyrie and Love together as much as possible during the regular season. These are two bad motherfuckers, but they really don't mesh well without Lebron on the court. Right now our rotation is to typically bring Kyrie and Bron ~3 min mark 1st qtr and then let Love run by himself, bring Bron back to start the 2nd, Kyrie at ~9 min and Love at 6 min. Then we usually sit Lebron for 3 mins after Love comes back. Instead, we should make sure that whenever Lebron is off the floor, Kyrie and Love are on it. We all know that Lebron with pretty much any 4 players will be fine, so having him for ~6 mins by himself each half is a non-issue, as we saw in the playoffs. Lue could either bring him out at the 6 min mark and bring him back to start the 2nd, or if that's a bit too early for Bron's tastes he could keep his minutes the same. Either way, Lue would have to match Kyrie's minutes with Loves. Apart from this, continuing to rest Lebron on some back to backs should help as well. IMO Kyrie and Love gaining synergy without Lebron is the key to playing better with him on the bench.

 

[LeShaq]

Like others, I have defended Blatt on this board many times. I like the guy and think he can really coach and could do a good job in the NBA.

The problem with talking about Blatt and Lue is that there are "sides" now. Are you a "Blatt guy" or a "Lue guy"? All of that.

* Lue has done a fantastic job coaching this team. I can say that without bringing up anything about Blatt.

* Did Blatt get a raw deal in some ways? Yes, I think he did.

* Did Lue benefit from Blatt being the first guy to coach the Big 3? Yep, he probably did (learned from Blatt mistakes, etc).

Still, Lue looks like a freaking maestro with the team. Like a born coach. I don't see how anyone could seriously question that at this point, no matter how much of a Blatt Guy he or she may be.

It's possible to like both Blatt and Lue. Many of us do.

 

[Douglar]

Here's some Lue stuff from LeShaq's Windhorst notes--

HOST_2: What about the maturation of Lue? How has his leadership role increased or improved this year?
* I think Ty would tell you, if here were here right now, that he's still learning.
* There are situations he hasn't perfected yet.
* He hasn't been a head coach for a full year yet, if you can believe it. Still a few weeks short of that.
* Lue is able to project an air of calmness.
* Cavs team was in state of chaos before Lue took over. For a year and a half.
* Cavs were in chaos either through self-created issues or situations thrust upon them.
* David Blatt kind of invited conflict, at times, in terms of how he handled various controversies.
* Lue is kind of the opposite of Blatt in terms of being unflappable (minimizing chaos, etc).
* Lue is unflappable, even when there have been mistakes made. And that sets the tone for entire team.
* That (low chaos) is the tenor (of leadership) that this particular team needs.
* Lue understood that the team needed low conflict and low levels of chaos.
* Lue has been around a long time; he knew that he should take the chaos level down some for Cavs.
* So, Lue has both implemented his own stamp on the team and he's developed low-chaos atmosphere.
* I think Lue's ability to bring the Cavs a low-chaos atmosphere has been invaluable for them.

 

[wuck]

I'm not going to claim that Lue pressed all the right buttons against the Celtics (although I think a lot of the 4Q letdown was the players' fault), but I did appreciate that he specifically took the ball out of Thomas's hands on the last important Celtics possession. Doubling Thomas, which was the defensive plan, meant that Crowder took and missed another 3-pointer. This is not always something that the Cavs do or have done. They often play straight up, perhaps because they're forced to (let's say with Jefferson switching on to Durant).

I know it didn't come into play tonight, but has Lue ever chosen to foul (and given up free throws) when up 3 points? I can't recall seeing that but perhaps there haven't been many opportunities.

 

[BooyaCS]

I'm not going to claim that Lue pressed all the right buttons against the Celtics (although I think a lot of the 4Q letdown was the players' fault), but I did appreciate that he specifically took the ball out of Thomas's hands on the last important Celtics possession. Doubling Thomas, which was the defensive plan, meant that Crowder took and missed another 3-pointer. This is not always something that the Cavs do or have done. They often play straight up, perhaps because they're forced to (let's say with Jefferson switching on to Durant).

I know it didn't come into play tonight, but has Lue ever chosen to foul (and given up free throws) when up 3 points? I can't recall seeing that but perhaps there haven't been many opportunities.

Last year against atlanta when we were in overtime (and the pacers as well) we were up 109 - 106 with 10 seconds left ans shump fouled Jeff Teague (Ellis in the Pacers game). He doesn't seem to use it often but he has.

 

[LeShaq]

This is gold. New ESPN The Magazine feature on Lue. Outstanding, new info here:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...ue-dynamic-lebron-james-cavs-coach-tyronn-lue

I just came across this because DMac from ESPN just did a True Hoop podcast I'm going to listen to (will transcribe some of it soon here on RCF), and he was talking with the guy who wrote the article (Kurt Streeter). So I wanted to read the article before I listened to the podcast.

About halfway through the article and had to share it with others.

If anyone can read that article and STILL say Lue isn't a great coach and great fit for us, I'd love to hear that argument.

 

[Stark]

I know he was our coach when we won a championship and all of that, but if I'm going to be perfectly honest, I am not all that impressed with Ty Lue.

Some nights he looks like the second best coach in the NBA (nobody on their best night can hold Pop's jock-strap). Other nights he looks like he should be coaching a boy's 6th grade team.

He runs some of the worst rotations I have ever seen out of a head coach. Rotations that would make Byron Scott blush. Part of being a great coach is putting your players in a position to succeed while also looking ahead to when the games really matter.

44 minutes for LeBron James last night, who is also tied for third in the entire NBA in minutes per game? Are you actually fucking kidding me? The guy just turned 32 today and unless it is a blowout when we luck out and are playing the shitty Nets or the Suns on a given night, Lue cannot find a way to keep him under 40 minutes the majority of the time.

LeBron has played 40 or more minutes in three of his last five games played. It's fucking DECEMBER. These games are pointless. We're going to make the playoffs. We're going to steamroll the Eastern Conference if we stay healthy. We might not stay healthy if Lue keeps running our best player into the ground night after night to try to etch out a win in a game that will be MEANINGLESS come April 15th.

I know our team isn't that deep, especially with JR and Birdman out, but come on. We were up 99-79 at one point last night, and we still needed LeBron and Kyrie to play 44 and 42 minutes to win the God damn game? You can't get more playing time in there for Dunleavy? Who cares if we ultimately lose the game on December 29th? Liggins only played 20 minutes and he was fantastic on defense last night and he has next to no mileage on his legs.

Not going to sit here and rant about rotations all day, but Lue is a pretty damn bad coach at managing them. LeBron and Kyrie should be playing eight minutes per quarter at the most. If Lue cannot find rotations to compliment the time when they are off the floor, then maybe he's not that damn good of a coach. I'd love to see what this team would be capable of if we had Popovich. He turns 12th men into solid 8-12 minute per night guys. We're winning a lot of games because we have LeBron James, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Tristan Thompson playing (a lot of minutes) every night. We're not winning because Lue is some kind of coaching mastermind.

 

[ACisKING]

I know he was our coach when we won a championship and all of that, but if I'm going to be perfectly honest, I am not all that impressed with Ty Lue.

Some nights he looks like the second best coach in the NBA (nobody on their best night can hold Pop's jock-strap). Other nights he looks like he should be coaching a boy's 6th grade team.

He runs some of the worst rotations I have ever seen out of a head coach. Rotations that would make Byron Scott blush. Part of being a great coach is putting your players in a position to succeed while also looking ahead to when the games really matter.

44 minutes for LeBron James last night, who is also tied for third in the entire NBA in minutes per game? Are you actually fucking kidding me? The guy just turned 32 today and unless it is a blowout when we luck out and are playing the shitty Nets or the Suns on a given night, Lue cannot find a way to keep him under 40 minutes the majority of the time.

LeBron has played 40 or more minutes in three of his last five games played. It's fucking DECEMBER. These games are pointless. We're going to make the playoffs. We're going to steamroll the Eastern Conference if we stay healthy. We might not stay healthy if Lue keeps running our best player into the ground night after night to try to etch out a win in a game that will be MEANINGLESS come April 15th.

I know our team isn't that deep, especially with JR and Birdman out, but come on. We were up 99-79 at one point last night, and we still needed LeBron and Kyrie to play 44 and 42 minutes to win the God damn game? You can't get more playing time in there for Dunleavy? Who cares if we ultimately lose the game on December 29th? Liggins only played 20 minutes and he was fantastic on defense last night and he has next to no mileage on his legs.

Not going to sit here and rant about rotations all day, but Lue is a pretty damn bad coach at managing them. LeBron and Kyrie should be playing eight minutes per quarter at the most. If Lue cannot find rotations to compliment the time when they are off the floor, then maybe he's not that damn good of a coach. I'd love to see what this team would be capable of if we had Popovich. He turns 12th men into solid 8-12 minute per night guys. We're winning a lot of games because we have LeBron James, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Tristan Thompson playing (a lot of minutes) every night. We're not winning because Lue is some kind of coaching mastermind.

Liggins appeared to go to the locker room in the first quarter (though I'm not sure why). As for the rest of the point about rotations, I think it's worth pointing out that your team has two dead spots (Mo and Birdman), a rookie that's not quite ready yet, an injured JR, a player in James Jones that essentially functions as a coach, an underpeforming Dunleavy, and a player who has been horrible in McRae. That leaves 8 players. I think that may have something to do with the minutes you are talking about. Also it has been reported that Mike Mancias, LBJ's longtime trainer, wants that LBJ to play relatively higher minutes in the early months of the season for conditioning purposes with the goal of reducing those minutes to the low 30s in February, March, and April (Lue himself has mentioned this). Overall though I do agree that Lue shouldn't be afraid to punt more of these December games by playing James/Irvinf less (beyond just sitting them out for certain games).

That being said, when you say you are not that impressed by Lue, I think you are overlooking the other things that Lue has done. He has figured out how to keep all of the big three happy. He has incorporated Love and challenged him to demand touches from LBJ and Kyrie. He has gotten the most out of Kyrie that I've seen anyone get out of Kyrie. He has proven that he isn't afraid to challenge LeBron even on the biggest of stages. He has established a style of play on offense with the pace and space that makes them nearly impossible to guard. The Cavs offense when on song is absolutely beautiful to watch (second only to Warriors in terms of games with at least 30 assists). He has some of the best after timeout plays in the NBA and multiple commentators have pointed this out. In fact as Kurt Streeter pointed out in that podcast with Dave Mcmeninmen that @LeShaq described, multiple players insist that Lue has a photgraphic memory of plays. He has been in just about every playing role in his career and has the ability to relate to both the best players like LeBron and the end of bench guys like James Jones (who backed up Lue when James was fuming about Lue's challenge that he play better in game 7). He seems to be loved by just about everyone, including the media, which is a big deal because it cuts out a lot of unnecessary drama that comes when the media turns on you (trust me this has happened with many Knicks coaches). He out-coached Steve Kerr and figured out how to slow down the 73 win Warriors. He ruthlessly exposed Steph Curry by putting him in a million pick and rolls. Most importantly he is beloved by his players and they believe in him...as Kurt Streeter described in that podcast, they would run through a wall for him. He's a top ten coach by any measure and the perfect guy for this particular team.

 

[buzzdog]

Also it has been reported that Mike Mancias, LBJ's longtime trainer, wants that LBJ to play relatively higher minutes in the early months of the season for conditioning purposes with the goal of reducing those minutes to the low 30s in February, March, and April (Lue himself has mentioned this).

I did not know this.

 

[Stark]

Liggins appeared to go to the locker room in the first quarter (though I'm not sure why). As for the rest of the point about rotations, I think it's worth pointing out that your team has two dead spots (Mo and Birdman), a rookie that's not quite ready yet, an injured JR, a player in James Jones that essentially functions as a coach, an underpeforming Dunleavy, and a player who has been horrible in McRae. That leaves 8 players. I think that may have something to do with the minutes you are talking about. Also it has been reported that Mike Mancias, LBJ's longtime trainer, wants that LBJ to play relatively higher minutes in the early months of the season for conditioning purposes with the goal of reducing those minutes to the low 30s in February, March, and April (Lue himself has mentioned this). Overall though I do agree that Lue shouldn't be afraid to punt more of these December games by playing James/Irvinf less (beyond just sitting them out for certain games).

That being said, when you say you are not that impressed by Lue, I think you are overlooking the other things that Lue has done. He has figured out how to keep all of the big three happy. He has incorporated Love and challenged him to demand touches from LBJ and Kyrie. He has gotten the most out of Kyrie that I've seen anyone get out of Kyrie. He has proven that he isn't afraid to challenge LeBron even on the biggest of stages. He has established a style of play on offense with the pace and space that makes them nearly impossible to guard. The Cavs offense when on song is absolutely beautiful to watch (second only to Warriors in terms of games with at least 30 assists). He has some of the best after timeout plays in the NBA and multiple commentators have pointed this out. In fact as Kurt Streeter pointed out in that podcast with Dave Mcmeninmen that @LeShaq described, multiple players insist that Lue has a photgraphic memory of plays. He has been in just about every playing role in his career and has the ability to relate to both the best players like LeBron and the end of bench guys like James Jones (who backed up Lue when James was fuming about Lue's challenge that he play better in game 7). He seems to be loved by just about everyone, including the media, which is a big deal because it cuts out a lot of unnecessary drama that comes when the media turns on you (trust me this has happened with many Knicks coaches). He out-coached Steve Kerr and figured out how to slow down the 73 win Warriors. He ruthlessly exposed Steph Curry by putting him in a million pick and rolls. Most importantly he is beloved by his players and they believe in him...as Kurt Streeter described in that podcast, they would run through a wall for him. He's a top ten coach by any measure and the perfect guy for this particular team.

Didn't know about LeBron wanting more minutes early on, so thanks for that. That was the basis for most of my frustration in that post. Kyrie and LeBron have been playing a lot of minutes so far. Kyrie has proven to be a bit injury prone and LeBron is 32.

I was mad because I don't want this team to burn out in the playoffs because our stars played too many minutes to win pointless games in December.

 

[Sebastian]

Much has been said, and, for the record, I was a Blatt supporter.

However, command is about people. It applies in any hierarchal structure and it may not be quantifiable in a way people can argue over. C'est la guerre.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Much has been said, and, for the record, I was a Blatt supporter.

However, command is about people. It applies in any hierarchal structure and it may not be quantifiable in a way people can argue over. C'est la guerre.

Yeah, you know best Stannis the rightful King, am I right?

 

[rabman_gold]

...

Also it has been reported that Mike Mancias, LBJ's longtime trainer, wants that LBJ to play relatively higher minutes in the early months of the season for conditioning purposes with the goal of reducing those minutes to the low 30s in February, March, and April (Lue himself has mentioned this). Overall though I do agree that Lue shouldn't be afraid to punt more of these December games by playing James/Irvinf less (beyond just sitting them out for certain games).

...

I was looking for that quote on here. LeBron may be in the top 5 in minutes per game, but because of the games he's taken off (the "schedule loss" games), he's only in the top 50 in totals minutes played.

And as the season goes forward, he'll be able to rest his body just enough that he won't run out of gas before the NBA Finals.

 

[BigJ]

I was looking for that quote on here. LeBron may be in the top 5 in minutes per game, but because of the games he's taken off (the "schedule loss" games), he's only in the top 50 in totals minutes played.

And as the season goes forward, he'll be able to rest his body just enough that he won't run out of gas before the NBA Finals.

I think it gets overlooked that he already has sat out 3 Games.

At 37.1 mpg thats 111 Minutes

Now lets say he would have played all Games so far but on lower Numbers.. his overall Minutes would amount to 33.5 mpg wich is propably is what many of us would wish his regular minutes would look like.

Now of course in an ideal world Lebron would have rested 3 games AND only played 33mpg a game.. but until we get some more depth or at least get JR back i can live with Lebron playing as much mpg as he thinks he can handle as long as he gets a full Game off every 10 Games or so..

I think people are a bit too paranoid about the Minutes.. Lue has said already that the Plan he made with Lebron and his trainers is to play him more Minutes now up until February to get Lebron into prime Gameshape and then cut his minutes down to the low 30s till the Playoffs..

I know there are people here who would be happy to see Lebron play only 30 Minutes a Game but this is a bit too much.. Lebron is not Duncan... Lue is not Pop...

A guy like Karl Malone played at 36 Mpg or more until 39...
MJ played 38 Mpg at 39 and 40..

I think you can go too far with restcricting Minutes..

 

[Douglar]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18395156/nba-unabridged-story-one-brilliant-lebron-play

CLEVELAND -- Midway through the second quarter of the Cleveland Cavaliers' third game of the season -- an Oct. 29 affair against the visiting Orlando Magic -- the Cavs ran a play that they'll have a hard time topping at any point in the 2016-17 campaign for both its execution and imagination.

The play is recorded in the official box score from Cleveland's 105-99 win over Orlando in its elemental state: with 5:13 remaining in the second quarter, Mike Dunleavy makes 3-point jumper (LeBron James assists), Cleveland leads 54-32.

That hardly does it justice.

In any given game, dozens and dozens of plays are called by a coach and executed by his team. This is the backstory of how the Cavs' play "Punch Snap Hammer" came to be, told to ESPN.com by all the principal parties involved.

...

Thompson: "I need to make sure I get Mike open, or that play gets f---ed up. If the ball goes out of bounds, it's my f--- up. So I have to make sure I do my f---ing job. Put that on a T-shirt."
​