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Kyrie Irving

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godfather said:
That would pain me to see Kyrie go somewhere, and really get it, and become that superstar player he's capable of being.

Look, LeBron is one of the greatest ever. But he's just not a leader. He needed someone else to really mold him into a completely different mindset. Hell, the guy needed a sports psychiatrist, almost.

Asking him to lead this entire organization himself. No wonder this thing is on the verge of being in shambles.

I'm not trying to blame LeBron either. I think he's a decent guy. I don't think he's poison. I think he has all the right intentions. He just bit off more than he can chew.
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Agreed... on both subjects.
Even LeBron needs a little guidance. He isn't getting it here, and this is the result. Everyone suffers.
Last night reminded me of 2011-14, except... this team is a favorite to represent the East in the Finals.
 
Rob said:
So we're discounting +/- all of a sudden? Because it is foolishly and quickly pointed out in here everytime it is bad...

That's funny. But fine with me. +/- is a fairly terrible metric. The usual suspects shouldn't be yapping about it next time Kyrie efficiently drops 30 but is -10 on the court (much like LeBron last night).
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Mailman216 said:
But I'll bite because deflection is common all of sudden. I agree with y'all Kyrie was terrible. Now please stop quoting me or answer the question since he was terrible how much worse were the other 4 starters? Please break down their performances with the same non sense details y'all are doing for Kyrie is all I have been asking. Be consistent please.
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Jon said:
Maybe you should reply to somebody specifically because your train of thought is approaching rhetorical diarrhea at this point ...
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I'd be curious if someone can demonstrate how the Cavs were outscored while Irving was on the floor?
 
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jking948 said:
Great post, I agree with all of this. To the bolded, though, I'd have to imagine Love is the odd man out, no? For all of Kyrie's issues he is younger with more potential. I am one of Love's biggest supporters on this board, and I think that we are still only using about 33% of his actual potential, but from a utilitarian standpoint Kyrie seems like the better bet.

All of this, of course, is moot if we win it all this year or have a great showing in the finals; however, that is seeming less and less likely. The question then becomes, what can we get for either Kyrie or Love, and does making the trade make us a better team? The Jae Crowder/Avery Bradley shit is still a dumb idea, but, there will be good trade options out there, there always are.
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I'm for that personally, if they include the lottery pick. If these fuckers get the number one pick, that will be off the table though.

I don't care about the draft pick really. I'd use that draft pick in a trade to get an idea center on this team that can defend at a high level, is athletic, and can not be a liability offensively.

I don't think Mozgov is the answer going forward either. We need to get more athletic and faster on both ends of the floor.

I don't think we are getting even value for Love. He will have value, but I doubt we are getting him for a star player.

And honestly, I'm okay with that. Because LeBron will make this team leaps better at the four. Guys like a Crowder/Bradley fit with the kind of two-way players this team lacks. Obviously they're not as good as Kevin, but they might be better fits here.

But star player for Love, I don't see it happening.

Our only hope, and this is dim, is if Kevin Durant forces himself here. But that's a pipe dream at the moment. But I could see traction for Love then. Because OKC has to worry about Westbrook leaving too. Love and Westbrook are really close.

So if Durant is seriously interested in coming here, we can't completely ignore that. But we have no idea right now obviously.
 
The Red Viper said:
Some great posts here, but I disagree about the leadership point. The ultimate leadership comes from the coach and coaching staff. Jordan, Kobe and Shaq had Phil Jackson. Magic and Shaq had Riley. Duncan and co had Pop. For me, the coach is always the ultimate leader. and the best/senior players in the rosters are usually the marshals.
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The players who undermined Blatt from the beginning of last season got what they wanted... and now they should bear the responsibility of that desire being fulfilled. There is no question those players haven't, and its rare that the players who oust their coach do take that responsibility. It's a question of accountability, and this franchise is in the accountability void.

Think about a substitute teacher when you were in school as a student. That adult can be the best teacher in the world, but the students wouldn't notice... there is an unwritten rule that jumps into play:

The authority figure has been removed, this new person has no authority so the students are going to avoid accountability.

Some of this comes with experience. For every one story of an interim coach leading a team to respectability, there are 30 cases where the interim guy finishes up a sunk loss. How good of a coach is BJ Bickerstaff? Who knows, Harden, Howard, and their rotating litany of forwards haven't played defense this year. Why? Its the substitute teacher, and the class knows there is a year off of accountability. That special interim coach who does get through usually does so because there is a higher authority figure, like the GM or owner. This Cavaliers team doesn't have the heavy at the top. Lue is falling on the sword for the season, and the lazier members of the roster know it.

If you didn't see this coming with the young players when they hired Lue to finish out the season, you just need to keep your eyes on the history book.
 
godfather said:
But star player for Love, I don't see it happening.
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I think it only happens if there is a player who wants out of a situation and is near free agency.

The problem is that there's not many of those situations where you'll have a player wanting to come to Cleveland long term, which means you're better off keeping Love.
 
Imagine Durant taking all those wide open shots that Love misses...

Lol. Our offense would be other-worldly.

But yeah, can't imagine any other scenario at this point that lands us a star by trading Love. His value has really decreased.
 
Rob said:
So we're discounting +/- all of a sudden? Because it is foolishly and quickly pointed out in here everytime it is bad...

That's funny. But fine with me. +/- is a fairly terrible metric. The usual suspects shouldn't be yapping about it next time Kyrie efficiently drops 30 but is -10 on the court (much like LeBron last night).
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One should never "yap" about a single stat from a single game and if somebody is doing that, feel free to "yap" at them.
 
Rob said:
Imagine Durant taking all those wide open shots that Love misses...

Lol. Our offense would be other-worldly.

But yeah, can't imagine any other scenario at this point that lands us a star by trading Love. His value has really decreased.
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Imagine Durant being reduced to a role of standing around on the 3 point line just waiting for the LeBron/Kyrie iso show to give him the ball.

Part of the reason I think he'd never ask to come here.
 
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gourimoko said:
I think it only happens if there is a player who wants out of a situation and is near free agency.

The problem is that there's not many of those situations where you'll have a player wanting to come to Cleveland long term, which means you're better off keeping Love.
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We might have to accept this team isn't built to be a big-3 either. Which I know a Boston trade might not seem appealing, but it might have the pieces to fit in better with a Kyrie. Bradley (imagine plugging him in next to Kyrie's defensive woes, wow, now you got something).

We have two glaring problems. Both of our star players, when they're not scoring and in Kevin's case not rebounding too. They become liabilities. They don't really add anything that's very dynamic to the team. Not to say they don't add anything else, but its not significant enough to justify their roles on this team.

And obviously when you have a big 3, not all of them are going to get a big piece of the pie. But add to boot, you got one of them not being utilized correctly, and probably is never going to on this roster.

To have a successful big 3, they need to all be exceptional two-way players to justify it. Because if they're not scoring, they need to still have a significant impact on the team.

KG, Pierce, and Allen (who was a pretty good defender on Boston) all fit this bill. Not to mention all of their offensive games actually meshed with one another. Just the perfect fit.

LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all fit this bill.

Steph (not a great defender but miles better than Kyrie), Klay, and Green all fit this bill.

So if we can't utilize Kevin correctly. And he's filling the position LeBron should be playing. He's not a dynamic two-way player (neither is Kyrie).

I find it impossible to justify keeping this group together.

I think we can fit Kyrie in better going forward than Kevin. Kyrie has his flaws. But he's younger and has more upside to me. Kevin might not boggle down the offense like Kyrie does, but he's not exactly knocking down doors on that end either.

This is why if we fall short, the Cavs should be all in on moving on with Love.

If it all comes together then, well, that changes obviously. I don't want to break them up either. I really hope they prove me wrong, but I'm having serious doubts.
 
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Rich said:
Imagine Durant being reduced to a role of standing around on the 3 point line just waiting for the LeBron/Kyrie iso show to give him the ball.

Part of the reason I think he'd never ask to come here.
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Wouldn't happen though...Durant would take LeBron's role while LeBron slid into Love's. We'd be terminally unstoppable.
 
JMoneyYourHoney said:
Wouldn't happen though...Durant would take LeBron's role while LeBron slid into Love's. We'd be terminally unstoppable.
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Eh, whatever. Playing this hypothetical scenario out that is never going to happen doesn't interest me.

Point is, I don't think playing with Kyrie Irving is terribly attractive to players who are better than he is.
 
godfather said:
We might have to accept this team isn't built to be a big-3 either. Which I know a Boston trade might not seem appealing, but it might have the pieces to fit in better with a Kyrie. Bradley (imagine plugging him in next to Kyrie's defensive woes, wow, now you got something).

We have two glaring problems. Both of our star players, when they're not scoring and in Kevin's case not rebounding too. They become liabilities. They don't really add anything that's very dynamic to the team. Not to say they don't add anything else, but its not significant enough to justify their roles on this team.

And obviously when you have a big 3, not all of them are going to get a big piece of the pie. But add to boot, you got one of them not being utilized correctly, and probably is never going to on this roster.

To have a successful big 3, they need to all be exceptional two-way players to justify it. Because if they're not scoring, they need to still have a significant impact on the team.

KG, Pierce, and Allen (who was a pretty good defender on Boston) all fit this bill. Not to mention all of their offensive games actually meshed with one another. Just the perfect fit.

LeBron, Wade, and Bosh all fit this bill.

Steph (not a great defender but miles better than Kyrie), Klay, and Green all fit this bill.

So if we can't utilize Kevin correctly. And he's filling the position LeBron should be playing. He's not a dynamic two-way player (neither is Kyrie).

I find it impossible to justify keeping this group together.

I think we can fit Kyrie in better going forward than Kevin. Kyrie has his flaws. But he's younger and has more upside to me. Kevin might not boggle down the offense like Kyrie does, but he's not exactly knocking down doors on that end either.

This is why if we fall short, the Cavs should be all in on moving on with Love.

If it all comes together then, well, that changes obviously. I don't want to break them up either. I really hope they prove me wrong, but I'm having serious doubts.
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Said the same thing in the Kevin Love thread. If we flame out in the playoffs (even though we'll probably make the Finals either way), we need to trade one of Love or Kyrie (and I'm more inclined to give up Love because he's older and so LeBron can switch to the 4) for guys like Crowder, Bradley, and maybe even draft pick(s) if they're willing - players who play hard, impact the game in multiple facets, and know their roles.

We have the rest of the season to see if we can make this work. After that, I think players are getting traded and guys are getting fired.
 
godfather said:
I think we can fit Kyrie in better going forward than Kevin. Kyrie has his flaws. But he's younger and has more upside to me. Kevin might not boggle down the offense like Kyrie does, but he's not exactly knocking down doors on that end either.
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My problem with this particular quote is that in order to have upside your play must continue in an upward trend.

Has Kyrie Irving trended upward? He really hasn't, has been in the league 5 years, and is almost identical in terms of IQ and effort since his rookie season.

He is what he is and if playing alongside LeBron James doesn't give you the swift kick in the ass to improve in other aspects of the game then you are essentially never going to be a type A player.

This guy has the opportunity to take his brand to next level status with a championship and his body language indicates he really doesn't want to work at his craft if he really doesn't have to. It's been a problem, is a problem, and will be a problem in the future because there is no sign that he has taken any steps toward bettering himself with basic functions of basketball.
 
JSS2306 said:
My problem with this particular quote is that in order to have upside your play must continue in an upward trend.

Has Kyrie Irving trended upward? He really hasn't, has been in the league 5 years, and is almost identical in terms of IQ and effort since his rookie season.

He is what he is and if playing alongside LeBron James doesn't give you the swift kick in the ass to improve in other aspects of the game then you are essentially never going to be a type A player.

This guy has the opportunity to take his brand to next level status with a championship and his body language indicates he really doesn't want to work at his craft if he really doesn't have to. It's been a problem, is a problem, and will be a problem in the future because there is no sign that he has taken any steps toward bettering himself with basic functions of basketball.
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The sad part about all this is that Kyrie WAS that player last season and the knee injury may have irreparably changed that. He played defense, he played with heart; he told Isiah Thomas that he wanted to be the first among his peers to win a ring. He willed his (LeBron-less) team to gutsy win over the 3rd-place Blazers. He hung 57 points on the legendary Spurs. In Game 1 we saw a ferocious and locked-in Kyrie give Steph everything he could handle.

He's still capable of torrid scoring nights but colliding knees with Klay Thompson may have done more damage than we initially thought. Much more.
 
I agree Love is the one that has to go...if only because Kyrie is younger...Some team may still feel Love us a superstar and we just couldn't use him correctly...I think Live is just a slightly above average player...I would love Bradley on this team
 
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